Subjective Reality and Nonviolence (Blog)

[Steve Pavlina]

Use this thread to discuss the following entry from Steve Pavlina's blog:

Subjective Reality and Nonviolence

[wolfgang]

Whenever I experience resistance towards the existence of animal cruelty, like seeing someone wolfing down a chicken’s limb with nary a concern for the animal’s suffering, I know it’s not about the other person. It’s not about “the system” that hurts animals either. It’s all a projection of my consciousness. The conflict is within me. If I turn within, I can see that I’m really wrestling with my own lack of compassion. That’s why it bothers me to see others doing it — it’s resonating with something already inside me. I manifested the whole thing to help me become more compassionate. The solution is never to attack what I perceive to be others’ lack of compassion or cruelty. It’s to rework my inner relationships, to come to a new understanding of what role I want compassion to play in my life, one that creates peace instead of pain.

You have more compassion for a chicken leg than those kids! What about this jealous raged kid's non-concern for life? How does teh suffering he caused not resonate within you but chicken legs do? Sorry, I must be attcking your lack of compassion with my lack of compassion for your stance, of making chicken legs more important than kids.

When I go to work on these patterns, I eventually make personal changes. Even if I just have a shift in thinking, it trickles down to affect my actions and results, and therefore it ends up creating external change as well. This is essentially how I strive to help people grow — whenever I notice problems in other people, I recognize they are my problems as well, and I go to work on them.

It really is true that you must become the change you want to see in the world. Whatever makes you feel outrage, realize the source is within you, and go to work on yourself. Strangely this is actually the best thing you can do to address the external problem as well. If you want to help cure the problems of the world, you must first cure them within you.

To help cure the world, cure yourself. I understand that. And many have said that with your polarity idea. Darkworkers are motivated to help themselves first then turn into lightworkers to help the world.

[Dan.Linehan]

Great article Steve

Um.. some people at my job were a little miffed that I wasn't more outraged.

[jdiddy]

First of all, bravo on having the guts to post this, it is no doubt going to be an unpopular post. I feel the same way about it, to be honest. And what's more, I feel that I know EXACTLY why this manifested, to me it is directly related to a large amount of conflict within my life in the past week.

HOWEVER, I do think that you need to be more consistent about how you apply these principles. When I scarf down a chicken limb, it doesn't register with me as manifesting violence, it just is. Same with what happened at VA Tech. I don't know if it was intentional, but your post makes it sound like animal suffering registers more with you than human suffering. Maybe it does, I don't know. Maybe it's the inverse of how I feel about the two situations. Maybe I see the shooting as the manifestation of my inner violence, while you see someone visiting KFC as the manifestation of your inner violence. Objectively that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but subjectively I really can't argue with it.

[ken nubo]

Steve, I read your article and I TOTALLY understand ... like, I'm reading the sentences and I understand it all, no confusion in my part. (perhaps subjective reality isn't new to me since I'm into Zen buddhism for many years)

Anyways, I posted about this shoot shizzle too on my blog. Here what I wrote, it may offend people, but read it for entertainment value :P

Surprise surprise, it's an Asian guy. ************ing loser dorky Korean guy who couldn't get laid, so he had to kill people to vent his frustration. Just look at the picture above, it isn't even a mug shot and he's one angry, douche bag.

For those who lived in a cave, here is the news: "BLACKSBURG, Virginia (CNN) -- The gunman who killed 30 people at Virginia Tech's Norris Hall before turning the gun on himself was student Cho Seung-hui, university police Chief Wendell Flinchum said Tuesday."

You can tell he's a nerd how he dual wields two pistols -- 9mm Glock and .22 handgun (probably a Mark Luger) and wears a vest full of ammo. He's been playing Counter-Strike, for shizzle.

Now, for a second, imagine those dead students that got killed. So you're just sitting in class room and thinking you're the ************, chatting with your friends and suddenly BAM! BAM ! BAM! And you're dead. Some student pretend to play dead and they survived, but this Asian guy was thorough and started shooting bodies on the ground, too.

So this is a good time to develop a warrior mentality and actually summon the courage to fight back, instead of playing passive and become the victim. I recommend you fight a group of black kids -- preferable 12 years old "gangster kids" -- to kick start your road to confidence.

And speaking of people who are offended by my post (not my royal readers, of course) grow the ************ up! Believe me, 33 deaths isn't a horrific tragedy. 150,000 people die on this planet every single day, a lot from starvation. Imagine that. Dying from not having enough to eat! And a lot of people in the West don't give a ************ about that. It only matters if it hits home. Self interest.

Be detached, folks, 33 deaths isn't a big deal. It isn't a horrific tragedy. See life as neutral. It's not good or bad thing, it just happens because of thus.

Animals get slaughter, I wonder if other animals mourn? Hmmm.

School: a production of retards

----------
my bloggy
kennubo.blogspot.com

[Steve Pavlina]

When outrage produces better results than peaceful compassion, I'll set aside time for outrage.

I don't typically observe people feasting on human limbs, so that hasn't been much of a trigger for me. The most common act of violence I observe is what people put in their mouths. Your triggers may vary.

[YouseffTheSheep]

Ken Nudo,

I don't see how you could say you totally understand the heart of steves posts, and especially as buddhist, but you are clearly outraged at the outrage of others for the incident, and apparently at western culture, with a hint of rascism.

---

Steve,

Your post contains some great information, as usual, even though I don't agree with the whole chicken leg/vegan aspect of the post (not that it should even be an issue to these other people). I was at a friends house and she was getting all worked up about the shooting, (she was concerned for a friend), but I pretty much had no emotional response to it besides wondering how the different groups of people would claim the cause' was (as you stated, gun control, western culture, etc.).

In anycase, it's a thinker.

[ken nubo]

YouseffTheSheep, you don't really know me eh. To be honest, I'm not angry or outrage at the shooter. More like picking fun at him. PICKING FUN AT HIM. Also, how can it be racist if I'm asian also ... lol.

I don't really care about the V-Tech shooting. It's like "meh, whatever ... just detachment.

When I write I usually do so to ENTERTAIN myself and the readers, with my underlying detachment slant on the whole thing.

I am not out-raged that other people are outraged!

Haha, ok I'm done. I like Steve's post, so I just signed up to post this.

See ya around!

[Hari.c]

Great article Steve.
This is a wonderful concept. I could relate this with what I heard from a Buddhist monk few years back.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

When outrage produces better results than peaceful compassion, I'll set aside time for outrage.

I don't typically observe people feasting on human limbs, so that hasn't been much of a trigger for me. The most common act of violence I observe is what people put in their mouths. Your triggers may vary.

It does seem to me that with your SR POV that needless death would register too, and in a grander way than animals being chomped, because you have a chance to be desesitized to people eating animals but not to kids getting killed.

If we all are one, then having needless death of innocents, how does that reach you more? Being one with all, to me, makes things like this event hurt me BECAUSE of SR. In fact I have to back off of SR to keep from feeling too much of it (and not just this event, mind you - lots die needlessly).

I can appreciate your take on actually witnessing chomping on things being a trigger. That is very visceral, I'm sure. I'm sure that if we had witnessed the shootings, it would be more difficult to have a detached stance that seems to work for you. But, again, others did witness it, and if you are considering we are all one, how is it not also in your experience directly and a trigger as well?

OK, I hear you - you are going to say - view it as a dream and because it's not in my backyard I don't have to have the same level of concern. Well, is that how you want people to view you?

If you can rise above and not be effected by hearing news of killings, is it just because you don't see it that it doesn't have the same effect as people eating meat?

[machine]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

The most common act of violence I observe is what people put in their mouths. Your triggers may vary.

The most common act of violence I observe is what comes out of people's mouths. (Mine included) I find it humorous you have no reaction to the shooting but you have a reaction to people eating chicken. I don't mean that as sarcasm; it really does make me laugh. From a subjective reality point of view all events are neutral; so it wouldn't matter if I'm chomping on a cow, a chicken or a child. What does it matter if something has a mother from the SR point of view?

From the highest level of perspective, nothing it good or bad - everything is neutral.

It is easy to understand it intellectually, but I wonder how I would hold that position if it were my own child getting killed (or eaten at a KFC). I often pose this question to myself and others. If you truly hold it whether it is you, or a loved one, or a stranger then you have arrived at that state before duality. But you will be a 'social outcast' for it. But from that perspective it wouldn't matter.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by machine

I do understand your post and agree with it. From the highest level of perspective, nothing it good or bad - everything is neutral.

It is easy to understand it intellectually, but I wonder how I would hold that position if it were my own child getting killed.

I think both perspectives are needed. People need to have an ego and feel the terrible feelings that can come with this, it's what human beings are about, perhaps. The oneness is there too, as something to keep too much of the pain from being just your own.

[ethereal]

At first I thought SR was just an explanation of Unified Consciousness, but these new articles clarified it up for me as a completely different paradigm of thinking.

I agree that if you hold a SR perspective, then the article makes perfect sense.

But I heavily doubt the validity of SR as it relates to Truth. It may make you more proactive and happy, but I respect Truth over pragmatism.

I think there seems to be a problem of context. Steve's SR perspective views collective human consciousness as a reflection of his own consciousness, but I think it's obvious that individual consciousness is a reflection of human consciousness. Free will decides which LOC your individual consciousness reflects.

Subjective Reality just seems like usurping the power of God and claiming it to be your own. Empowering indeed, but I fail to see the truth in it.

I see the same thing with Steve's analogy of the body and thumb -- yes, the thumb is the body, because it is part of the body and cannot be separate from it -- but the thumb is still a thumb. You can't say the thumb is the body (which really just leads to megalomania if unchecked), you can only take the label "thumb" off of it because labels do not apply to Reality. Saying the thumb is the body is just another subtle label and duality, and will not lead to true non-duality. Subjective Reality seems to me, to be analogous to the thumb claiming credit for all that the body does and "creates". Maybe it's a useful belief system, but it's still just another SR lens that must be discarded along the way.

To clarify, there is only God and God's Will. There is no "you". "'I' am God" (which seems to be the crux of SR) is still a duality, and a dangerous one as history shows over and over again. God is creating everything, including "you" and "your" actions / roles / manifestations. That is what the Tao and non-action of action means -- everything is spontaneously happening on its own, as an expression of that which it is, as a creation of God.

[machine]

Wolfgang I appreciate your reply. From a progressive development point of view, it seems the goal is to move beyond the ego into the non-dual state. One without a second (2nd).

I remember reading Lester Levenson saying he had to sit in front of the TV for days in order to get himself to feel feelings again after he ran it up to the top state.

Even Nisargadatta Maharaj once stated to his 'driver' in the days before he died - I worry about my daughter getting along after I die. Do you think my students would understand me even thinking this thought?" (paraphrased) And he lived in the state of non-duality.

How screwed up would I really be if I could remain neutral if one of my kids was killed? I would either be a sociopath, or coming from a position of non-duality.... funny how insanity seems to reflect genius.

[Akashic_Librarian]

Go Steve....Go Steve. Spot on sir!

Very well written. I love how you mention the outrage with a little tongue in cheek. Brilliant post. For once I understood what your saying after only one read I a must be growing. This example has really cleared SR up for me, it was still a little foggy in my mind

[machine]

Lets just run this through a bit further.

If Subjective Reality is the model of reality, then all things/events are neutral. Eating a chicken leg, killing someone, birth, death, etc... all mean the same - nothing.

So why bother 'self development'. Why blog to help other people? There are no other people; there's just your consciousness.

And the whole premise is based on an assumption that the One Consciousness wants everything to be 'good' and 'right'. Maybe the one consciousness wants the duality. So from that perspective, for every good act you do, you have now created an evil act to offset it.

Maybe Tony Parsons is actually correct. He said it doesn't matter. There is no enlightenment because there is no one there to be enlightened. It doesn't matter if you read a book, take a dump, or sit on the couch...lol.

Duality is the way consciousness can 'see' itself. No hot without cold; No up without down; No good without evil.

So the whole presumption that 'consciousness' is searching for what we think is righteous is flawed. You can't tell me being good is better than being bad or that selflessness is better than selfishness if you are talking from a subjective reality point of view.

How can we even think life is supposed to be about unconditional love for everyone? Maybe it's supposed to be total selfishness. Who is to say.

Let me clarify: I am posting this because these are the questions that have arisen as I read this post. There is no attack or ill intent in what I have written. It's just my mind moving through the progression of thinking that has occurred as I read the thread. When I say 'you' and 'your' I am not directing it at any particular person.

[ethereal]

Because the Ultimate Reality is Love, and not Void.

It is possible to get to a non-dual state of Void, where everything is One, and that is the same as Nothingness. In that state, what you say is true -- there is nothing to do, nothing to say, even no one to be, everything is the same, there's no point to anything. That is also close to where one transcends personal karma, and "you" are not responsible for your actions anymore -- so if you want to be selfish and seize all power, you can if you want, since "it doesn't matter".

But that is not the Ultimate Reality, because it negates all other positive qualities of Divinity -- Love, Beauty, Truth, etc.

And who is to say? The enlightened avatars and sages who have gone before us

[John Wesley]

I agree that we should look inwardly for the problem, but I'm not sure about the rest of the post. Somewhere between chicken legs, fake leather belts, and Sedona, AZ he lost me.

I appreciate the idea of subjective reality, but I don't know if this is a great application or explanation. Somehow Steve managed to turn this issue into a post about himself, his lucky numbers, his veganism, etc. I don't know what the right thing to say is, if there is any right thing, but after a promising beginning this one tapered into confusion.

Just my opinion, I still appreciate the effort. It did make me consider the situation from a new perspective.

[Steve Pavlina]

When you release the outrage, what remains isn't nothingness. It's a perception of beauty and perfection. It produces a positive feeling, not apathy.

Blogging is one of the ways I attempt to explore and understand this reality. It's a way for my consciousness to examine and explore itself, much like journaling.

[machine]

Thanks for clarifying that. These are the questions arising as I read through....

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

When you release the outrage, what remains isn't nothingness. It's a perception of beauty and perfection. It produces a positive feeling, not apathy.

Blogging is one of the ways I attempt to explore and understand this reality. It's a way for my consciousness to examine and explore itself, much like journaling.

I would express a similar view. I think the outrage is natural, not to be skipped (the ego part of it) and releasing it is what is important (maybe with help from seeing the SR perspective).

Holding onto that feeling is not what is needed, maybe use it temporarily to be motivated to do something or listen or take heed - a signal that all is not perfect but could be.

What I mean to say is it's all well to endeavour to see stupid deaths from SR or oneness, where it seems like it doesn't matter. But, to me, if you can get there, that "seeming that it doesn't matter" is not to be kept to yourself - it's to be what you radiate that will help heal the world, bring it back to the masses, if you will. And being able to get to that state is what does the radiating along with showing compassion - since if you aren't swept up in the crazy emotions you would be more able to be compassionate.

I think, though, even in oneness emtions are going to occur in the body and should - that's where the gusto is. I, for one, have greater range of feelings when I touch oneness more often - and it's also more tricky to let go of the emotions (since they get kind of rushy) and let them fall through me. It occurs to me that letting emtions run a natural course is exactly what helps put one into oneness, that allows some SR viewing. All the holding on is what prevents feeling at one with all.

[Theo77]

Does animals eating other animals trigger anything?

Seems like getting mad at people eating meat is a control thing. I am kind of wary of militant vegans, I feel like secretly they'd like to outlaw meat and hunting and wearing leather for everybody.

When actually people have been hunting and eating meat for thousands of years, actually since before we were human.

Animals eat each other its part of life. Even if you are vegetarian, since there are so many people on this planet, much of would be wildlife habitat is dedicated to growing crops, so even growing vegetables and grains is an act of aggression and domination.