Subjective Reality and Nonviolence (Blog)

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by ballhit

I think if one of those students had had a gun and shot the shooter, she/he'd have been reducing violence in the world.

I think if someone was under their desk, trembling, shaking, trying to recall their prior viewing of The Secret and trying woefully to manifest a change in the shooter's behaviour, they would have become perforated with bullets.

I would agree with you Ballhit. It's hard to transmute violence into unconditional acceptance and love when you're dead.

[ballhit]

Originally Posted by ZHereford

I would agree with you Ballhit. It's hard to transmute violence into unconditional acceptance and love when you're dead.

I bet Jesus Christ wished there were stevepavlina.com/forums back in the day so that He could have avoided that mistake...

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by ballhit

I think if someone was under their desk, trembling, shaking, trying to recall their prior viewing of The Secret and trying woefully to manifest a change in the shooter's behaviour, they would have become perforated with bullets.

Of course. "Trembling"? "Shaking"? "Trying"? They were manifesting their own death right there, by picturing it, envisioning it, and expecting it.

Maybe they should have tried to change themselves.

You, on the other hand, would have done your utmost to intend and manifest the death of the shooter, right? After having anticipated and manifested a future where he would kill more people, you justify an additional death. Congrats, he's dead.

Which is worse? A magic whereby you ask people to stop killing each other, or a magic whereby you justify murder? I don't know. Unrealistic as Steve's position sounds, I largely prefer it to an ideology where you shoot everyone who you believe will shoot someone.

You want to hand the victims a gun? Go to Israel. All the victims have guns, there. And bombs. And tanks and ballistic missiles.

[ballhit]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Of course. "Trembling"? "Shaking"? "Trying"? They were manifesting their own death right there, by picturing it, envisioning it, and expecting it.

Maybe they should have tried to change themselves.

You, on the other hand, would have done your utmost to intend and manifest the death of the shooter, right? After having anticipated and manifested a future where he would kill more people, you justify an additional death. Congrats, he's dead.

Which is worse? A magic whereby you ask people to stop killing each other, or a magic whereby you justify murder? I don't know. Unrealistic as Steve's position sounds, I largely prefer it to an ideology where you shoot everyone who you believe will shoot someone.

You want to hand the victims a gun? Go to Israel. All the victims have guns, there. And bombs. And tanks and ballistic missiles.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on women wearing skimpy outfits and what they manifest.

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Of course. "Trembling"? "Shaking"? "Trying"? They were manifesting their own death right there, by picturing it, envisioning it, and expecting it.

Maybe they should have tried to change themselves.

I seriously doubt that changing anything would have saved them by that point. Their deaths were a forgone conclusion by then.

There were a few people who acted heroically, including a brave teacher who died saving others by blocking the door and taking the hits himself.

As repulsive as killing is, there are times when it's defend yourself or be killed. If people hadn't fought and died for our freedom we wouldn't be here discussing this on these forums.

There have been power hungry lunatics and mad men throughout history who would have been more than happy to have us turn the other cheek or send them unconditional love.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by ZHereford

There have been power hungry lunatics and mad men throughout history who would have been more than happy to have us turn the other cheek or send them unconditional love.

Such as who, precisely? Please point me to a biography that you've actually read.

Originally Posted by ballhit

I'd love to hear your thoughts on women wearing skimpy outfits and what they manifest.

That depends. What are they intending?

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Such as who, precisely? Please point me to a biography that you've actually read.

Are you saying:

1). You can't think of any such leaders throughout history?

2). That my having read, or not read, biographies about them determines whether they did or did not exist?

[ballhit]

I wasn't going to reply to this post's points because my emotional response was that your opinions about this specific matter are ludicrous!

This is what I surmised from what you typed:

1. the huddling victims manifested their deaths by worrying about getting shot and are equally 100% responsible because they didn't try "to change themselves" (in your words)
2. just because someone's shot a dozen (or however many) people doesn't necessarily mean they'll shoot another dozen, so shooting at that someone while they're on a shooting rampage is unjustifiable and incongrous with a theory of nonviolence within our "shared Subjective Reality"
3. the citizens of Israel are victims because they are armed

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Of course. "Trembling"? "Shaking"? "Trying"? They were manifesting their own death right there, by picturing it, envisioning it, and expecting it.

Maybe they should have tried to change themselves.

In my reality-tunnel, these statements reflect a gutless, compassionless, almost silly response. Imagine your close friends, if you have any (don't mean that in an ad hominem way, don't take it that way), in that room, and imagine yourself telling them to intend harder to get out of that situation rather than to defend themselves. Or put yourself there in that situation. Do you want a gun or a binder print-out of the articles on this blog? Do you want a Kevlar vest or a vest made of Shareware CDs with copies of Dweep Gold on them?

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

You, on the other hand, would have done your utmost to intend and manifest the death of the shooter, right? After having anticipated and manifested a future where he would kill more people, you justify an additional death. Congrats, he's dead.

I would probably find myself not even thinking about what to do. If and when the body knows it's in danger, it acts on its own accord. Fight or Flight baby. The Body *knows* it's going to die and is the only aspect of your existence which knows that, unlike Consciousness, which can forever claim that it doesn't have to die, and then go do wonderful things like pursue Joy or Peace or Enlightenment, hopefully earning money along the way telling the others about this wonderful solution to Body Death (see Wilber, Ken, or Pavlina, Steve, or the Roman Catholic Church)

Now I don't carry a weapon so I'd likely be a poor sap as well, but had I been armed I'd probably have found myself shooting at the threat without hesitation or dread, and possibly not even being aware that it was happening. In my reality-tunnel it's ethical to try to stop someone who's actively murdering people; I don't know about your reality-tunnel.

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Which is worse? A magic whereby you ask people to stop killing each other, or a magic whereby you justify murder? I don't know. Unrealistic as Steve's position sounds, I largely prefer it to an ideology where you shoot everyone who you believe will shoot someone.

You should really watch the movie "Minority Report" directed by Steven Spielberg. There's nothing magical about not shooting people. I do it every day. And I don't consider synchronicites *magical* either. Magic is just tomorrow's science in my reality-tunnel.

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

You want to hand the victims a gun? Go to Israel. All the victims have guns, there. And bombs. And tanks and ballistic missiles.

All the victims have epitaphs, there. And prosthetic limbs. And obituaries and mourning families. They're not all Israeli, either.

Thank you for not Godwinning this thread yet.

How can you be dogmatic about a catma!?!?!

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by ZHereford

You can't think of any such leaders throughout history?

I am saying the burden of proof is on you. You say they exist: show me who they are.

Originally Posted by ZHereford

That my having read, or not read, biographies about them determines whether they did or did not exist?

Nothing so mystical. I merely harbor doubts as to your knowledge of history.

Originally Posted by ballhit

the huddling victims manifested their deaths by worrying about getting shot and are equally 100% responsible because they didn't try "to change themselves" (in your words)

You depicted them as worrying, not I. I quoted you and pointed out that your depiction, if accurate, would have led to their deaths.

A person who blinds themself with fear and doubt, reduced to jelly by circumstances they merely did not predict, faced with death and fleeing from it, is not a person I am particularly moved to wish well. If you have watched V for Vendetta, compare the various deaths and ask whose death you respect most. (I hope that you will understand my point without the need for details; I didn't want to drop spoilers.)

"Life itself is always a trial. In training, you must test and polish yourself in order to face the great challenges of life. Transcend the realm of life and death, and then you will be able to make your way calmly and safely through any crisis that confronts you." -- Morihei Ueshiba, founder of Aikido, Art of Peace, Verse 73.

"One should be prepared to receive ninety-nine percent of an enemy's attack and stare death right in the face in order to illumine the Path." -- Ibid., Verse 80.

Always live as if you will die in the next minute. I am ready, if someone walked in the door behind me and shot me in the back of my head. I am ready, if someone tossed a grenade through the window in front of me. If the floor gave way in an earthquake, or the roof crushed over my head, I am ready. If I cannot survive it, and I would seek a way to do so, then I will die.

It'd be too bad that this post doesn't make it to the forums, but such is life, or its end. I hope no one weeps.

Originally Posted by ballhit

I would probably find myself not even thinking about what to do. If and when the body knows it's in danger, it acts on its own accord. Fight or Flight baby. The Body *knows* it's going to die and is the only aspect of your existence which knows that, unlike Consciousness, which can forever claim that it doesn't have to die, and then go do wonderful things like pursue Joy or Peace or Enlightenment, hopefully earning money along the way telling the others about this wonderful solution to Body Death

"This topic brings me to that worst outcrop of the herd nature, the military system, which I abhor. That a man can take pleasure in marching in formation to the strains of a band is enough to make me despise him. He has only been given his big brain by mistake; a backbone was all he needed. This plague-spot of civilisation ought to be abolished with all possible speed. Heroism by order, senseless violence, and all the pestilent nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism — how I hate them!" -- Albert Einstein, pacifist.

Perhaps you might be Tarzan? Does your body know why the shooter started shooting? Probably not. But... why would it care? Your body only cares about death because that would keep it from defecating tomorrow afternoon. How noble of it. What a model it is. It will not even fight unless it's a cornered rat. I may have been born in the Year of the Rat, but I'm not terribly fond of being one. Busy yourself with surviving the next minute, if you must; my philosophy of life demands that I anticipate and thus prevent such an incident to occur, if possible, and that demands understanding of what happened--not the willy-nilly of base instincts to lounge, drink booze, and eat loads of candy; not the indulgence of grief for the simple reason that a bunch of other people must, absolutely positively must!, be weeping their brains out through their noses; not the feral rage sharpened to the cutting edge of answering death with death as if it would ever stop if I took part in a counter-massacre.

I would love him and have compassion for him, and so understand him, that staring down the gun barrel wielded by his hand, I could know what his thoughts are. "The Way of a Warrior... consists in defeating your adversaries spiritually by making them realize the folly of their actions." (Art of Peace, V. 91)

There is more to you than just your body. If you disagree with such a simple statement, then cease your reading, end your studies, and write no more.

Originally Posted by ballhit

just because someone's shot a dozen (or however many) people doesn't necessarily mean they'll shoot another dozen

Correct. Simply because the sun rose today does not mean it will rise tomorrow.

There are explanations to be had, of course. Why does he continue to kill people? Why did he stop? Perhaps he was gunning for a single person. Perhaps he was trying to take as many down as possible. Maybe he just didn't like redheads. Truth be told, we cannot be sure now. We'll speculate, and the next few years will have clamorings for legislation to ban this and regulate that. Pointless: a typical American response of swatting at symptoms without any awareness of actual, plausible causes.

Originally Posted by ballhit

so shooting at that someone while they're on a shooting rampage is unjustifiable

It is rationalizable. Choosing the lesser evil is always rationalizable. Within the subjective reality model, however, both evils are manifestations of your own intentions, and thus your personal responsibility. It would not be a choice between a lesser evil and a greater if you didn't manifest the greater one in the first place.

If you manifest a future where many are dead because a person kills them, of course it is your personal responsibility to stop that person from doing so. You can either do that lovingly, by manifesting a future where that person does not kill anyone, or through murder, by manifesting a future where someone (maybe you) kills that person.

Either way, everything, absolutely everything, is on your shoulders.

Originally Posted by ballhit

the citizens of Israel are victims because they are armed

I did not say that, but you are free to surmise it.

Originally Posted by ballhit

In my reality-tunnel, these statements reflect a gutless, compassionless, almost silly response.

What is courage? What is compassion? Define them, for me, and we will see if I agree with you.

Originally Posted by ballhit

Imagine your close friends, in that room, and imagine yourself telling them to intend harder to get out of that situation rather than to defend themselves.

That would be stupid. You cannot "intend harder". It is not a magic bullet; don't treat it as magic. It is a philosophy of life. Though... people are capable of rapid, psychological change in seconds when provided with a powerful stimulus. Consider this koan. I also liked this one.

But I, for one, would not be found trembling and shaking underneath a desk. I would more likely be shot by the teenager with his gun in my hand. But my martial skills have been out of practice for years now.

Originally Posted by ballhit

Or put yourself there in that situation. Do you want a gun or a binder print-out of the articles on this blog? Do you want a Kevlar vest or a vest made of Shareware CDs with copies of Dweep Gold on them?

I want intelligence, presence of mind, courage, discipline, and conviction. I don't get this from a gun and a Kevlar vest. I might get bravado, but I've had that and I'm not fond of its aftermath. But you're welcome to try. Please avoid any schools while holding them; you might make the news.

Originally Posted by ballhit

had I been armed I'd probably have found myself shooting at the threat without hesitation or dread, and possibly not even being aware that it was happening.

So, you, too, would have been one of the shooters.

Originally Posted by ballhit

Magic is just tomorrow's science in my reality-tunnel.

Then don't treat LOA like magic. Treat it as tomorrow's science. And yes, I've seen Minority Report, but I don't see how it's relevant. I realize that some people may make a conscious choice not to shoot someone every day, but if I had a gun in my hand, there are a lot of people who may very well have been the victim of my anger in the past five years, not to mention thousands of dollars' worth of computer equipment.

But I have anger management issues. Most of the schoolyard fights I was in, I started. I remember one where I came at someone physically stronger and more competent, spitting and cussing every profane word I could think of. Imagine if I had a gun. Imagine if he had a gun. One of us wouldn't be here today. Probably me; he had friends there. They probably would probably have guns, too.

Originally Posted by ballhit

All the victims have epitaphs, there. And prosthetic limbs. And obituaries and mourning families. They're not all Israeli, either.

Precisely my point. By "Israel", I referred to the geographical location where much of the conflict is occuring, not its population.

Originally Posted by ballhit

Thank you for not Godwinning this thread yet.

No, I'm waiting for ZHereford to do that.

Originally Posted by ballhit

How can you be dogmatic about a catma!?!?!

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about here.

I'll leave you this:

"While the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth."

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

I am saying the burden of proof is on you. You say they exist: show me who they are...

"This topic brings me to that worst outcrop of the herd nature, the military system, which I abhor. That a man can take pleasure in marching in formation to the strains of a band is enough to make me despise him. He has only been given his big brain by mistake; a backbone was all he needed. This plague-spot of civilisation ought to be abolished with all possible speed. Heroism by order, senseless violence, and all the pestilent nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism — how I hate them!" -- Albert Einstein, pacifist.

I don't have to defend my credentials and you can choose to acknowledge my point or not; but I will address Einstein the "pacifist".

When you quote someone who's biography you obviously haven't read, I'll be happy to inform you about him.

Einstein was not an honorable man!

According to Roger Highfield and Paul Carter in the biography "The Private Lives of Albert Einstein":

"Einstein was a man of powerful but conflicting emotions.....his private life was truly a shambles."

He was abusive and neglectful to his first wife and two sons (he also had an illegitimate daughter with her before they married).

He was a compulsive womanizer who, while married, had an affair with his first cousin and left his family for her (he continued to womanize during this marriage too). There is speculation that he actually died of syphilis.

His younger son, due to his father's painful neglect, was left to die alone in an asylum in Zurich. His older son also suffered emotionally because of his relationship with his father.

His first wife Mileva, who was a mathematical genius in her own right, contributed greatly to his theory of relativity. He never gave her the credit she deserved and discarded her after she was of no use to him.
In fact "he was never able to provide clear and consistent explanation of relativity's origins." pg. 110

This is your "pacifist" a man who was cruel and neglectful to his own family and left them in near poverty to fend for themselves.

Nothing is what it seems. Life is full of paradoxes.

[ballhit]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

You depicted them as worrying, not I. I quoted you and pointed out that your depiction, if accurate, would have led to their deaths.

A person who blinds themself with fear and doubt, reduced to jelly by circumstances they merely did not predict, faced with death and fleeing from it, is not a person I am particularly moved to wish well.

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Always live as if you will die in the next minute. I am ready, if someone walked in the door behind me and shot me in the back of my head. I am ready, if someone tossed a grenade through the window in front of me. If the floor gave way in an earthquake, or the roof crushed over my head, I am ready. If I cannot survive it, and I would seek a way to do so, then I will die.

It'd be too bad that this post doesn't make it to the forums, but such is life, or its end. I hope no one weeps.

I bet victims the world over of something subjectively defined as "premature death" would wish they could substitute you to be in their shoes when the moment comes.

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

"This topic brings me to that worst outcrop of the herd nature, the military system, which I abhor. That a man can take pleasure in marching in formation to the strains of a band is enough to make me despise him. He has only been given his big brain by mistake; a backbone was all he needed. This plague-spot of civilisation ought to be abolished with all possible speed. Heroism by order, senseless violence, and all the pestilent nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism — how I hate them!" -- Albert Einstein, pacifist.

Pacifists don't invent technologies which lead to the greatest destruction capabilities known to Humankind. I believe Einstein's work consists of a greater long-term threat to Humankind than Hitler's.

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Perhaps you might be Tarzan? Does your body know why the shooter started shooting? Probably not. But... why would it care? Your body only cares about death because that would keep it from defecating tomorrow afternoon. How noble of it. What a model it is.

Why do you resent your vessel so much? Ideas are much less miraculous and are NO MATCH for that DNA-Energy dance going on inside of you. And you've never truly defecated if you don't realize that it is a noble act indeed. Try a high-fiber vegan diet for a while.

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

[M]y philosophy of life demands that I anticipate and thus prevent such an incident to occur, if possible, and that demands understanding of what happened--not the willy-nilly of base instincts to lounge, drink booze, and eat loads of candy; not the indulgence of grief for the simple reason that a bunch of other people must, absolutely positively must!, be weeping their brains out through their noses; not the feral rage sharpened to the cutting edge of answering death with death as if it would ever stop if I took part in a counter-massacre.

It seems to me that if this shooter had engaged in the "willy-nilly of base instincts" more frequently perhaps he wouldn't have been so angry.

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

I would love him and have compassion for him, and so understand him, that staring down the gun barrel wielded by his hand, I could know what his thoughts are.

So you'd rely on clairaudience and clairvoyance to hear the message "I'm lonely and I'm going to shoot you because this world hurts and nobody wants to play with me" Hey, if you could know what his thoughts were, then so can I, and so can anyone else who wants to make such an assertion.

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

There is more to you than just your body. If you disagree with such a simple statement, then cease your reading, end your studies, and write no more.

The body is the only thing there, right there, holding that pen or typing on that computer. If you disagree with such a simple statement, then keep reading to prove otherwise, keep studying to sharpen that instrument, and don't stop writing. Warning: Your body may atrophy.

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Correct. Simply because the sun rose today does not mean it will rise tomorrow.

The sun only seems to rise because we're on a sphere which rotates.

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

There are explanations to be had, of course. Why does he continue to kill people? Why did he stop? Perhaps he was gunning for a single person. Perhaps he was trying to take as many down as possible. Maybe he just didn't like redheads. Truth be told, we cannot be sure now. We'll speculate, and the next few years will have clamorings for legislation to ban this and regulate that. Pointless: a typical American response of swatting at symptoms without any awareness of actual, plausible causes.

Maybe he killed people so that this thread could carry on ad nauseum.

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

If you manifest a future where many are dead because a person kills them, of course it is your personal responsibility to stop that person from doing so. You can either do that lovingly, by manifesting a future where that person does not kill anyone, or through murder, by manifesting a future where someone (maybe you) kills that person.

Yours is not a Universe with flesh wounds!

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

I want intelligence, presence of mind, courage, discipline, and conviction. I don't get this from a gun and a Kevlar vest. I might get bravado, but I've had that and I'm not fond of its aftermath. But you're welcome to try. Please avoid any schools while holding them; you might make the news.

I already said I don't carry a gun.

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

So, you, too, would have been one of the shooters.

Shooters attack, shooters defend.

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

if I had a gun in my hand, there are a lot of people who may very well have been the victim of my anger in the past five years, not to mention thousands of dollars' worth of computer equipment.

The only way to be sure would be for you to get a gun and see whether you can harbor intelligence, presence of mind, courage, discipline, and conviction through restraint, like maybe say Morihei Ueshiba. Although even he would whack his students occasionally. Note I'm not recommending you actually own a gun, especially since you say you have Anger Management issues.

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

"While the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth."

Word, yo.

[Michael Chui]

I surrender.

It is clear that I am not even being responded to anymore, so there is no longer any discussion to participate in. I had even half-expected a researched response, like having my words regarding murder be thrown back at me from earlier within this thread, but you did not even try to do that. It would be too much to expect from you, to attempt to understand the person with whom you are speaking. Ah, America, you're still hanging on Cromwell's chains.

I realize that my words are not the easiest for a person to read, and my long-windedness hardly helps, but ZHereford, it was good of you to show me that even the simplest of my responses may be ignored, that a quotation addressing a completely different point can be twisted for the purpose of slandering the name of someone who fought so hard for peace--who in the nine hells gives a crap about his lack of scientific accomplishment in the context of this thread?--to an end that is only making my point for me!. And then you appear to believe you have said something relevant. Bravo. "Nothing is what it seems," you say. To you, or to me? Because it certainly seems to me that there are many things about Einstein's life that seem to you: you believe them just fine. At least you didn't "Godwin" this thread; ballhit did that for you. I could scarce believe mine own eyes.

I hope to understand, one day, how it was that I even appeared to be asking for your credentials, ZHereford. I have some glimmer, but no certainty.

It is truly remarkable--really quite amazing--that such a discussion can have taken place, that in all your attempts, ballhit, to make me feel as if I would think differently had I only been there, you have not even attempted to discover who I am or why I am. You did profess ignorance once, and for that I thank you.

I do not even agree with Steve's subjective reality model. Perhaps you do realize that. Perhaps that's why you didn't point out the dozens of holes in my argument if I did agree with it. But no matter.

I will look forward to your donation of millions of pistols to schools across the country. At the very least, it would show up the gaps in our education system quite nicely. Perhaps I can make something out of that. Zimbardo, Zimbardo!

And...yes. It would have been my honor and pleasure to die in their place. I wish that my death could bring about a thousand years of peace and prosperity to all the universe. But it won't, and so I live on. For now.

P.S. The Earth is not a sphere.

[ballhit]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

I will look forward to your donation of millions of pistols to schools across the country. At the very least, it would show up the gaps in our education system quite nicely. Perhaps I can make something out of that. Zimbardo, Zimbardo!

P.S. The Earth is not a sphere.

Noted. A haiku, then

Oblate spheroid mom,
Womanifesting rocky
Versions of Herself.

[gina sandgren]

I loved your article on Subjective reality and non violence. I agree with your take on this, Steve. Here's a question: I have an issue with my eight year old son seeing violent movies...Star Wars, Spiderman, Batman etc. (PG-13). He seems to handle them fine in terms of observable effects (no bad dreams). However, how are these images affecting him at a subconscious level I wonder.?Is it my issue with violence...violence within. I have always been easily disturbed by dark images and they stick with me.
Gina