Subjective Reality and Nonviolence (Blog)

[interfire]

Congratulations for being brave, open and authentic on a difficult issue for most people. Personal responsibility is a key ingredient of living conciously, or perhaps a direct outcome of living conciously.

Most of us, have had years of training in blaming and shaming, giving away responsibility to the outside, to other systems and people. Too bad, so sad, it doesn't work. It is just too easy to blame rather than reflect and look within to see what I can do to change the issue for myself. After that can I also examine how I voted, colluded, remained silent, hid etc. because as an outward manifestation of where I was/am at the objective reality of my action/inaction is also created.

So, yeah, we are all a big part of the problem of violence, and taking personal responsibility for the roots of violence within is the key step.

Namaste

[AnnaC]

Great article Steve

[len]

Agreed. Thank you Steve!

[pdnewbie]

This perspective does not make sense to me. What you're really trying to say, I think, is that instead of complaining, each of us can use it as a way to improve ourselves. If this is going on, how can I change myself so that it doesn't happen again. If everyone does it, then it won't happen again. It's like you're trying to spread a message, and hope that everyone catches it. I'll call it viral thinking.

To imagine that you're solely manifesting these events, that's just being delusional. At least the delusion has good intentions behind it. But I'd prefer thinking rationally, and not filling my head with more illusions. I get enough of those from the media and the retail outlets. Perhaps in an indirect way, some of us are contributing to the problem, while others are contributing to the solution, and this creates a net effect.

[Steve Pavlina]

Originally Posted by ottantaventi

would your reaction be the same if the person involved would be your kids ?

If everyone I know gets wiped out in a blink, I'll adapt. This possibility makes life interesting. I wouldn't actually want it any other way.

My maternal grandparents passed away a few years ago, and I communicate with them more often now than I did while they were here physically. Hardly a tragedy when we can still keep in touch. Physical death certainly transforms relationships, but it needn't end them... unless you never answer the astral phone, that is.

I understand that my beliefs may be unusual in Western society, but this whole fear of death thing is quite unnecessary. Everyone you know, including you, IS going to die. If you need to come to grips with that, why not do it now? Why not resolve your feelings about it instead of waiting until someone actually dies? If your reaction to someone's death would send your life into a tailspin, consider that perhaps your beliefs are the problem, not the Grim Reaper.

If you had as much astral traffic going through your house each day as Erin and I do, you'd probably feel much more comfortable with dead people, including the death of people close to you. As far as I can tell, most people seem to like it on the other side, although overall they're just as confused about reality as we are.

I think fearing the death of someone close to you is a scarcity-based way to think, rooted in the fear that without certain specific relationships, you'll no longer be loved or have someone to love. Fall in love with everyone though, and you need never fear being alone. Real love doesn't involve attachment.

[machine]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Murder is not the answer to murder. The shooter was human, too. Just like you. One of the more fascinating insights such incidents lend to us is the reminder that we, ourselves, are equally capable of atrocity.

An eye for an eye, right?

Michael if you are sitting in your house and someone comes in and starts killing your family and you are holding a gun would you should him and kill him? I only ask because I see blanket statements like you made above (Murder is not the answer to murder) and wonder if you've actually thought it through.

From my point of view I would shoot the person. But now twist it a bit; what if it was one of my family members killing the other members of my family. It can get quite complicated and fascinating at the same time.

I am guilty of making blanket statements myself and I see other people do it too. But I think there are no absolutes and I can think of a situation that would reverse any blanket statement.

This is how I challenge my beliefs.

machine

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

If everyone I know gets wiped out in a blink, I'll adapt. This possibility makes life interesting. I wouldn't actually want it any other way.

... Everyone you know, including you, IS going to die. If you need to come to grips with that, why not do it now? Why not resolve your feelings about it instead of waiting until someone actually dies? If your reaction to someone's death would send your life into a tailspin, consider that perhaps your beliefs are the problem, not the Grim Reaper.

If you had as much astral traffic going through your house each day as Erin and I do, you'd probably feel much more comfortable with dead people, including the death of people close to you. As far as I can tell, most people seem to like it on the other side, although overall they're just as confused about reality as we are.

I think fearing the death of someone close to you is a scarcity-based way to think, rooted in the fear that without certain specific relationships, you'll no longer be loved or have someone to love. Fall in love with everyone though, and you need never fear being alone. Real love doesn't involve attachment.

What happens to viewing life as prescious, when you consider death as no big deal. I fully understand and can feel attachment since I'm a human being. Nonone would be able to operate in 3d without some level of attachment. But, what's to keep you from treating life as mundane if you are saying death doesn't matter? Like, oh, some people died again and it's no big deal, so why even invest in life at all since there's going to be death? To not have a bit of attachment to life would mean poofing off into the ether/astral - dematerialization - our atoms would not stick together. Or make one not take care - what's the point of being kind, etc, if death is no matter, or what's the point in not killing others if death doesn't matter? It seems like a dangerous position to keep - that death is just something that happens so who cares? Please tell me where I'm missing things?

It's odd to see my reactions to the new agey type things here. I've often considered myself buying those types of beliefs - that it'd all some sort of duality illusion and feelings are just showing you wnat you are attached to - so don't attach to anything and your feelings will not be a problem. But, as I read posts that could have been me writing it as I think I have been wanting to believe or have as a attitude - I look at myself and say, boy what the heck am I trying to believe? That it doesn't matter? No, it can't be that! I'm not that way! I do care, etc...

And, yes, I think even if I don't know that a bunch of people died for no reason, I think it hit me somehow. In other words, my feeling of peace inside of me is effected by who screwy the world is, regardless of if I watch the news or not. To be one with everything is what allows me to say that. It's not to be weepy about the world and be stuck feeling attachment feelings. It's to actually be able to feel and be moved by what the whole oneness is. I venture to say, if someone has not heard about the shootings, and they are good and being one with everything, they are going to be feeling or have some sort of unease while needless death occurs.

And if more people are able to get this feeling, regardless of whatching the news or not, I think it helps release the angst of world pain. It's the Buhddist way of breathing in all the nutty bad stuff so as to make it so others don't have to feel it, and then to breath out the best postive vibe one can so as to spread and make that feeling state more available to everyone.

I used to want to just say, oh, when someone dies, it's ok since everything is exactly as it should be. And I would say, "God moves in mysterious says". Or it's God's plan, why question it... But, yuk, is that what I'm trying to grow with? Roll over and just say, oh well, just another transition of life and it was all agreed upon by their sselves anyway. I don't know - like I've said, I've thought these are "neat" ideas, but something still bothers me about taking things this way. Life is prescious, living things are meant to live and be healthy, right? Being one with all means wanting every living thing to have peace and full life. I'm not sure I can accept needless death in the light of, oh well it was to be that way because it is.

[markytom]

"Life is precious" and other beliefs are merely thoughts that have been concretized. This understanding is very freeing - it means that you not only can change your thoughts, you can change everything you "believe" - which is another way to say that "truth" is arbitrary too. To me, this is a major part of Subjective Reality.

Take Steve's belief that animals suffer when they are killed for food (.e.g. chickens) - and therefore chooses to be vegan because it isn't something he wants to manifest anymore. However, he doesn't seem to have a problem with pulling up a living carrot, cutting it up, placing it in boiling water, and then eating it. Does the carrot "suffer" too? Maybe. Do bacteria "suffer" when our immune systems kill them off? Maybe - I can project my beliefs on the event but it all comes back to my thoughts. My reality. Where do you draw the lines? It's all arbitrary. You choose. It can be very empowering if you look at it from that perspective. Why does anything matter? Because you choose it to matter to your reality.

[Bitsy]

Wolfgang:

Steve wrote many things in the post you quoted that I believe and know that draw me to suicide and also that cause me to know that if I want to, after death, I can always be with the one I love, so death does not upset me (actually, it often is a comfort to me). In a way, therefore, something of what you said is right, for me, I have become a bit reckless with myself, since I don't really care if I die or not, but that doesn't have to do with having no attachments - obviously, it's not normal. (FYI, I'm not reckless with others, contrarily.)

About some things you wrote, though, wolfgang, I don't believe it all.

Originally Posted by wolfgang

What happens to viewing life as prescious, when you consider death as no big deal. ...But, what's to keep you from treating life as mundane if you are saying death doesn't matter? Like, oh, some people died again and it's no big deal, so why even invest in life at all since there's going to be death? Or make one not take care - what's the point of being kind, etc, if death is no matter, or what's the point in not killing others if death doesn't matter? It seems like a dangerous position to keep - that death is just something that happens so who cares? Please tell me where I'm missing things?
I look at myself and say, boy what the heck am I trying to believe? That it doesn't matter? No, it can't be that! I'm not that way! I do care, etc...

I don't believe this bit. I would believe that you do care when someone or people that you personally have some sort of attachment to die. Since your birth, every day in the world, who knows how many people die? Today, who knows how many people died? Palestinians have been being killed for decades, in Iraq, people are being killed every day, innocent people, children, people dying of starvation, the list is endless. But I am assuming you haven't grieved and don't grieve every day for all of that. I apologize in advance if I assume wrong, though.

I finally sold my TV last summer because, thanks to lack of anything interesting on Finnish TV, I kept watching BBC World and spent days sobbing and by God it ruined me (more). I sold it and now I have no idea what is going on in the world and that is one less thing I am suffering with; none of the people dying or suffering in the news are suffering that I stopped watching their suffering and crying for them.

I used to wake up with an awareness of the hell and demons (i.e. people) I was and had to live among in this world and I would bawl my eyes out wishing I were dead and free of this world because of people, and not just bad ones I saw on the news.

Incidentally, you could consider this - I have observed that people who have lived for years or grown up in war zones where lives are snuffed out as a matter of daily life, such as in Iraq and for many years in Palestine, those people really have lost all concept of valuing lives, their own and those of others. Therefore, like you mentioned, they do view death (or life) as mundane and no big deal. It makes it easy for (some of) them to kill others.

Originally Posted by wolfgang

And, yes, I think even if I don't know that a bunch of people died for no reason, I think it hit me somehow. In other words, my feeling of peace inside of me is effected by who screwy the world is, regardless of if I watch the news or not. To be one with everything is what allows me to say that. It's not to be weepy about the world and be stuck feeling attachment feelings. It's to actually be able to feel and be moved by what the whole oneness is. I venture to say, if someone has not heard about the shootings, and they are good and being one with everything, they are going to be feeling or have some sort of unease while needless death occurs.

I don't believe this is true either. Your peace is only affected by what you are and become aware of. If you are ever-aware, as I was, that this world is screwed up, then your peace is surely affected.

Also, the deaths can not have been any more needless than any other death. The fact must be, that if the death of one person is needless, all death must be needless. Either all are, or none are. You mentioned Buddhists - Buddhists believe that all life is equal and one life is not important when pitted against the lives of many.

I was actually with a Buddhist nun when she saw that headline in the newspaper and her reaction was to bring it to the attention of the other Buddhist nun present and both of them expressed sadness at the incident and at the state of the world and promptly continued about their business (in their understanding, praying, meditating and teaching to free the world from suffering, which also seems to include letting a mosquito have its fill of your blood ).

I believe that even you yourself, if you knew about the deaths of people in a country somewhere across the ocean, would not mourn long over them, unless someone you were "attached" to were involved in whatever had occured. To be truthful, the vast majority of people in the world only mourn or express grief at deaths involving people who are attached to them in some way, and they would also rejoice at the death of their enemies.

[wolfgang]

I thought part of the point of oneness was that you get to experience everything. If being in oneness means you are cut off from all the suffering - that's not being in oneness - that's shutting out everything else. The specifics of what is occuring "out there" is not needed to be known to be able to key into the world's suffering.

[machine]

Originally Posted by markytom

"Life is precious" and other beliefs are merely thoughts that have been concretized. This understanding is very freeing - it means that you not only can change your thoughts, you can change everything you "believe" - which is another way to say that "truth" is arbitrary too. To me, this is a major part of Subjective Reality.

Take Steve's belief that animals suffer when they are killed for food (.e.g. chickens) - and therefore chooses to be vegan because it isn't something he wants to manifest anymore. However, he doesn't seem to have a problem with pulling up a living carrot, cutting it up, placing it in boiling water, and then eating it. Does the carrot "suffer" too? Maybe. Do bacteria "suffer" when our immune systems kill them off? Maybe - I can project my beliefs on the event but it all comes back to my thoughts. My reality. Where do you draw the lines? It's all arbitrary. You choose. It can be very empowering if you look at it from that perspective. Why does anything matter? Because you choose it to matter to your reality.

Great points. I like the point about drawing the lines. The lines we draw are based on our beliefs. Who can prove that a carrot is less 'alive' than an animal or a human? We define alive as something that can move and make sounds? We can slide where we draw the 'alive' line anywhere we want to. And because humans can move, make sounds and think about thinking does that make us better than animals because they can't communicate with us or supposedly can't reflect on their own thinking? How do you know a carrot doesn't 'feel' something; because it doesn't have a nervous system? Maybe it has a different feeling mechanism than that.

Janism believes in not killing lower life forms.

Non-violence

Central to Jainism is the practice of non-violence or ahimsa. The dedicated Jain is constrained to reverence life and is forbidden to take life even at the lowest level. The obvious consequence of this belief is strict vegetarianism. Farming is frowned upon since the process would inevitably involve killing of lower forms of life. Ahimsa has been summed up in the following statement:

This is the quintessence of wisdom: not to kill anything (Ibid, Vol. 45, p. 247).

If they weren't allowed to farm I guess their vegetarianism only included fruit and berries; or just stuff growing on trees and bushes?

We can rationalize it any way we want. With enough skill you can argue all sides of a point equally well.

Even Steve's idea of a 'cruelty based life' requires a line drawn at the definition of cruelty. From Steve's perspective I am more cruel than him because I eat meat. I personally don't find that cruel. If someone else spent their life picking off all living organisms from their vegetables before they ate them they would see Steve's lifestyle as cruel based. Maybe raw vegetables are better than cooked because the organisms don't get burned alive.

It's obvious this can go on indefinitely and we can spend all of our time thinking. Eventually each one of must draw a line and go from there or else we would be paralyzed from moving.

This has become a very interesting thread.

[Steve Pavlina]

There's more to life than our temporary physical existence. Against the backdrop of eternity, physical life is like a cup of coffee. Once you've finished your cup, there's no need to cry, "Omigod! I ran out of coffee! I have nothing left to live for! Game over, man! Game over!"

If you think coffee (or physical life) is the totality of your existence, you really should get out more.

This physical world is a fun and exciting place to visit, but it's still only a visit. All the stuff you accumulate here and all your human relationships are temporary. Enjoy the ride while it lasts. Just don't get so attached to this place that you stunt your growth. There's plenty more to do after you're dead.

[JonathanBrowne]

I think some of us are running this through the screen of philosophy a bit too much. Just keep your emotions balanced, and find some way to deal with it within yourself. I think its insulting to the emotions of other people to tell them that they just don't understand the true nature of the universe, so all their reactions of grief and fear are irrational.

Didn't Jesus weep for Lazarus?

[ottantaventi]

Steve, I'm interested to learn more about your beliefs about life after death. I guess you've already posted about it. By which post should I start.

Thanks in advance.

ciao
alexander

[machine]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

There's more to life than our temporary physical existence. Against the backdrop of eternity, physical life is like a cup of coffee. Once you've finished your cup, there's no need to cry, "Omigod! I ran out of coffee! I have nothing left to live for! Game over, man! Game over!"

If you think coffee (or physical life) is the totality of your existence, you really should get out more.

This physical world is a fun and exciting place to visit, but it's still only a visit. All the stuff you accumulate here and all your human relationships are temporary. Enjoy the ride while it lasts. Just don't get so attached to this place that you stunt your growth. There's plenty more to do after you're dead.

Even what Steve says here is from his belief system. Other belief systems say there is no 'after here' and you just go back to the source. Advaita holds the belief that any attachment to an "I ego" here disappears at death when you realize you are the absolute.

Maybe these astral projections or after life experiences are just a manifestation of consciousness appearing as a real state of existence. Maybe what you believe is exactly what you see. If you believe you go to hell after death you will experience a hell. If you believe you are going to heaven, you experience heaven. If you believe you will be an astral form, then that's what you will be.

From a logical thought process: If it all is consciousness, and it's all the same consciousness, then all states of being are illusions and therefore irellevent. And if it's all the same consciousness how can there be some individuality that exists except as an illusion of the consciousness? If there is a survival of this illusionary individual to another state after death, then the 'individual' in that state is also an illusion.

I state this from a logical based point of view. I in no way pretend that I know these as actual facts. If I one day experience them as such, only then will I present them as examples of my experience.

[JiriNovotny]

Originally Posted by ottantaventi

Steve, I'm interested to learn more about your beliefs about life after death. I guess you've already posted about it. By which post should I start.

Thanks in advance.

ciao
alexander

I would start with http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200...e-after-death/

[ottantaventi]

Thanks JiriNovotny, I searched for the key "life after death" on the blog but didn't get apparently related results, but I was just to hasty because the right answer (your suggestion) was on page 2 of the search results.

ciao
alexander

[Simmiah]

Originally Posted by netpaul

If your "mind only" subjective reality ideas were true, The Buddha would not have seen nor acknowledged suffering as such.

But in fact, He did. More than that, He said that every word He spoke was designed to explain the truth about suffering and the end of suffering. And He said as well that this world in which we live is indeed a realm of suffering.

I'll say as a student of Buddhism who also reads other texts that it is difficult for us to understand or Know fully what Buddha meant when he spoke of suffering & attachments.

I can say I see Steve is working on this but that's just what I "see" & of course he is not 100% enlightened as I'm not either hehe.

& well I've run into the same problem in interpretations of what Buddha said. I find myself imposing my own ideas of suffering onto his talking about suffering leading me back to more suffering as I struggle with thinking I am suffering too much which is in itself interesting. I will say we are all growing from this thread & it is evident to me in the postings. So thanks for sharing too. Hmm. & I can see where you are coming from.

[Bitsy]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

I thought part of the point of oneness was that you get to experience everything. If being in oneness means you are cut off from all the suffering - that's not being in oneness - that's shutting out everything else. The specifics of what is occuring "out there" is not needed to be known to be able to key into the world's suffering.

Personally, I'm sorry, I'm not able to intellectualize well about the subject. They, the nuns I mentioned, are not "cut off" per se - or, actually, they really are, in that they don't have to live in the mess I am living in, because they have surrounded themselves in a shroud of safety, love and people just like themselves, but in their minds, they are aware of the suffering and the important thing