If selfishness isn't evil, then what is evil?

[John Freestone]

Ok. I see. I don't know if there are different spiritual planes (although I have heard of the idea and one of my bestest teachers, Ram Dass talks about them. I reserve judgement on that. If there are, I don't know which one this might be. I don't tend to think of things that way. I see what you mean, but I see 'dark' as always pointing back, if you understand what I mean, to lower planes maybe, and 'light' (love, outward flow of energy, as you put it) leading towards higher planes. I am tempted to believe, like Ram Dass, that all planes are 'here' together, and, although it may not be simple, we can migrate to higher ones now (and that fits with all this law of attraction stuff, surely?).

These kinds of ideas I think of as metaphors anyway. I am not a Christian, but I think this is what Christ meant when he said that the kingdom of heaven is within us. That is like another, perfect plane of reality, and it is within us in the sense of being accessible here and now through contemplative means. I don't know if these realms are real, or if they are just states of mind, but I get into that bliss quite often in meditation (and then, in fact, it is real, as real as normal waking life).

Opposite to that, the idea of hell can be equally thought of as here and now alongside heaven and normal Earthly life, and again, maybe the boundaries are less clear than we tend to think. If there are more levels, maybe that makes them easier to move across from one to another. Anyway, again, I'm not saying I believe in real spiritual planes, dimensions, levels, nor that I discount the idea.

I try to deal with what I know, and try not to take other views as truth until I've checked them out. I wonder whether you might have read or heard about these levels and been impressed by the view, and accepted them as real and this level as so separate from the others that we can't slide between them more easily. Of course, you may have checked the theory out, but then I wonder how you could do that without actually migrating to other levels, which would prove the theory wrong. I suppose you might have contact, and the nature of that contact included the knowledge that it was a realm out of reach of mortal humans in this 'Earth', ever, but it sounds unlikely that you could communicate with those levels or gain that kind of knowledge of the impossibility of migration.

Anyway, I wonder what made you sure enough to overturn your lighter views so completely. And I wonder whether these realms are time periods - do you mean that in some future Earth things will be a different? Is this related to Aquarian stuff - end of Pisces and so on, or am I miles off? Sorry, I'm thick about all that stuff.

I go through phases, by the way, and I have some terrible black moods thinking about the state of the world. But over time this has impressed on me the living fact of plane-migration, the experience of seeing different 'levels' or dimensions - or just worldviews to put it more straightforwardly - because I can also switch my awareness, or sometimes I have to wait and then it gradually changes, and I see the world with wonder, love and joy. I had a real bad time, for instance, when I first saw Fahreinheit 911. No point in us bothering to try to change the world. It's too deeply ****ed already. But I am lucky enough that I have uplifting experiences, people show me love, I see massive amounts of love in the world (there are sooooo many relativelylightworkers) and a month later I'm thinking quite differently.

I wonder, when you were light-oriented, didn't you have a sense of the truth of the spiritual message that there's an infinite amount of energy here and now, and all we have to do is open ourselves to it? Have you changed your mind on that, or did you never believe it? I find it difficult to believe in conservation of energy when it relates to the spiritual.

Forgive me still trying to dig into you psyche and persuade you to consider different paths - I used to be a shrink, and the habit obviously dies hard. I'll shut up as soon as you wish me to, and I'm not implying that you're mad or need a shrink - no, that's a lie - I clearly think you're mad , but I don't think you need a shrink; you decide what you need! And there would be quite a number of ex-colleagues would read what I write here and say I need one. I'm getting a lot out of it and learning a lot from you. Thanks.

[Freelancer]

Originally Posted by openeyes

What is evil? reduced fat food. margarine.

Couldn't agree more.

[John Freestone]

Sorry - that last one was to BTD.

@Freelancer - I reckon I agree with pretty much everything you've said. Either that or I stand by your right to see it your way. I'm not a lightworker. Sorry if I confused people here. I'm completely new to all this stuff and took on that label to make the conversation simpler - I try to not kick puppies and give love to puppies and people, and I kinda got caught in using the term because it was flying around. I'm prepared to believe you know more about it and that the true lightworkers and darkworkers aren't here labelling the world on a forum. Nice points. Also, I don't mean to use the word moral or immoral in the sense of rules 'out there' that I have to abide by. I mean my own personal sense of what I reckon is true and right. I guess in that sense maybe you're the same - you're not going to be told what's right and wrong by anyone. Good on you for that. So when I said BTD was immoral, I didn't mean in some God-will-strike-you-down kind of way - I don't think I have THE TRUTH about morals. I was expressing my personal view, like you do when you say it's ok to kick puppies. Relative ethics. In my moral view, it isn't ok to kick puppies, it's immoral. I guess it's what makes so much fighting in the world, the fact that we all have different beliefs about how we should behave, but then we forget to just let other folks have their beliefs even when it's not really affecting us.

[Freelancer]

Originally Posted by John Freestone

Sorry - that last one was to BTD.

@Freelancer - I reckon I agree with pretty much everything you've said. Either that or I stand by your right to see it your way. I'm not a lightworker. Sorry if I confused people here. I'm completely new to all this stuff and took on that label to make the conversation simpler - I try to not kick puppies and give love to puppies and people, and I kinda got caught in using the term because it was flying around. I'm prepared to believe you know more about it and that the true lightworkers and darkworkers aren't here labelling the world on a forum. Nice points. Also, I don't mean to use the word moral or immoral in the sense of rules 'out there' that I have to abide by. I mean my own personal sense of what I reckon is true and right. I guess in that sense maybe you're the same - you're not going to be told what's right and wrong by anyone. Good on you for that. So when I said BTD was immoral, I didn't mean in some God-will-strike-you-down kind of way - I don't think I have THE TRUTH about morals. I was expressing my personal view, like you do when you say it's ok to kick puppies. Relative ethics. In my moral view, it isn't ok to kick puppies, it's immoral. I guess it's what makes so much fighting in the world, the fact that we all have different beliefs about how we should behave, but then we forget to just let other folks have their beliefs even when it's not really affecting us.

Ah yes it seems we do agree on a lot.

My little rant is also aimed at the so called darkworkers on these forums.

By my own judgement there is only one true darkworker (as true as you can find them here) on this board and thats Asmoday. The rest seem to be internally struggling with the choice.

Haha don't worry by the way, I won't kick your precious puppies they don't bounce well enough.



Oh and by the way, your on the right path for you. Keep up the good work.

Just be carefull the ego doesn't trap you, its SO easy.

[BringTheDarkness]

I've read many, many thousands of pages of "esoteric" literature in my time. This particular thinking on spiritual planes and such comes from the teachings of Ra, and also from Georges Gurdjieff.

As I said earlier, the "here is now" and "all planes exists in the same space but of differing vibrations" may be true to some extent. But for me right now, I don't see them applying to the earth as it is now.

I turned against the "lighter" views because being that way made me miserable.

And I don't like the term "darkworker" either, I just use it out of convenience.

There may be infinite energy, but by the time it filters down to us at this level we have to choose what to do with it.

BTD

[John Freestone]

Originally Posted by Freelancer

Ah yes it seems we do agree on a lot.

My little rant is also aimed at the so called darkworkers on these forums.

By my own judgement there is only one true darkworker (as true as you can find them here) on this board and thats Asmoday. The rest seem to be internally struggling with the choice.

Haha don't worry by the way, I won't kick your precious puppies they don't bounce well enough.

Dont have any puppies to kick, but please leave my ***** alone. (clue: type of cat)

Oh and by the way, your on the right path for you. Keep up the good work.

Thanks - careful, you're in danger of sounding like a lightworker.

Just be carefull the ego doesn't trap you, its SO easy.

Absolutely - we agree again! Way I see it, I'm deep in ego stuff almost all the time. The fact that I'm learning from this discussion and enjoying it reminds me. I am simultaneously trying to help others and myself, but I can't deny that it makes me feel good to be trying to be good for others, which is a kind of selfish motive. That leads some people to say that all do-gooders are is deluded selfish people, even evil, but that's just black-and-white, illogical thinking.

If I understand Steve's posts, he thinks its better when we polarize one way or the other. I feel that for me it's better to maintain a balance, protect myself, care for myself, and also care for others. That, Steve says, makes me wishy-washy, dissipating my energy so I don't do anything very effectively. I don't agree, or even if it's true I'd rather sacrifice a bit of 'effectiveness' and keep my balance.

I think I must be talked out on this subject, I'm just repeating myself.

@BTD - keep looking after yourself

[yossarian]

I find the best way to look at polarities is either Unity consciousness or Separation consciousness.

You either consider the entire universe to be one, and seek to improve the whole universe, or you consider yourself to be separate and seek to improve only yourself.

If you are unity-consciousness oriented, this includes helping yourself, since you are part of the whole. However, it means that when you help yourself, you always do it for the greater good. You don't enrich yourself at the expense of others, rather you enrich yourself as well as enriching others to the best of your ability.

When you lighten yourself, you lighten the world. Unity consciousness means service to all, and that includes yourself as well as everyone else. In every situation, you look for the outcome that produces the most benefit for everyone involved, including yourself. Whereas a separation-consciousness oriented person ONLY considers his own benefit.

IMO when Steve talks about lightworker syndrome, he is talking about people who forget that they are part of the all. When you serve the entire universe, this includes serving yourself since you are part of the universe. Lightworker syndrome is when you forget that you are part of the universe.

[Freelancer]

Dont have any puppies to kick, but please leave my ***** alone. (clue: type of cat)

Tell it to keep out of my way.

Thanks - careful, you're in danger of sounding like a lightworker.

Nice warning but don't worry I don't really care if people think I'm a light or darkworker.

Absolutely - we agree again! Way I see it, I'm deep in ego stuff almost all the time. The fact that I'm learning from this discussion and enjoying it reminds me. I am simultaneously trying to help others and myself, but I can't deny that it makes me feel good to be trying to be good for others, which is a kind of selfish motive. That leads some people to say that all do-gooders are is deluded selfish people, even evil, but that's just black-and-white, illogical thinking.

If I understand Steve's posts, he thinks its better when we polarize one way or the other. I feel that for me it's better to maintain a balance, protect myself, care for myself, and also care for others. That, Steve says, makes me wishy-washy, dissipating my energy so I don't do anything very effectively. I don't agree, or even if it's true I'd rather sacrifice a bit of 'effectiveness' and keep my balance.

I think I must be talked out on this subject, I'm just repeating myself.

Personally for me ego is a tool to be used, not something to be and act through.

The only reason I'd do anything for other people is to keep myself, my own self esteem intact. Its part of the Code of Conduct I devised for myself. I don't kid myself (anymore) though, its not because I care about them. Its because if I don't I will end up suffering because this has a tendency to create guilt and guilt has a tendency to tear you up.

From my own experience I know that if I hurt people, if I take without paying then in the end I will suffer as well.

I find the best way to look at polarities is either Unity consciousness or Separation consciousness.

You either consider the entire universe to be one, and seek to improve the whole universe, or you consider yourself to be separate and seek to improve only yourself.

If you are unity-consciousness oriented, this includes helping yourself, since you are part of the whole. However, it means that when you help yourself, you always do it for the greater good. You don't enrich yourself at the expense of others, rather you enrich yourself as well as enriching others to the best of your ability.

When you lighten yourself, you lighten the world. Unity consciousness means service to all, and that includes yourself as well as everyone else. In every situation, you look for the outcome that produces the most benefit for everyone involved, including yourself. Whereas a separation-consciousness oriented person ONLY considers his own benefit.

IMO when Steve talks about lightworker syndrome, he is talking about people who forget that they are part of the all. When you serve the entire universe, this includes serving yourself since you are part of the universe. Lightworker syndrome is when you forget that you are part of the universe.

Perhaps, I don't know.