If selfishness isn't evil, then what is evil?

[yossarian]

Oh btw I forgot to mention..

The "dangerous confusion" IMO is starting to walk down the dark path without realising the full implications of that path. Walking down it while thinking that you aren't eventually going to be heavily drawn towards directly hurting others. If you go far enough, soon enough you'll reach a point where you have to enslave others, and you'll be stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Darkwork under Pavlina Polarity is about absorbing energy and hoarding it and intentional selfishness, and these things are negative polarity whether you call them "darkworking (a new concept)" or not. The selfishness without hurting others is basically just ankle-deep negative polarity.

The choice will be between depolarization (which is an expensive readjustment) and harming someone (which some people may not want to do).

[JHL]

Originally Posted by yossarian

...and it seems I totally disagree with JHL on everything.

Say, are you related to my girlfriend??!

Originally Posted by yossarian

...Of course I also don't buy terming the two polarities love vs. fear, since negative polarity is not based on fear it's based on love-of-self. Either polarity experiences fear, but the fear is of different things. At least that's my opinion..

I agree! (hope you were sitting down for that one). In my view, I would label the negative aspect of the scale as "Lack of love" and its opposite as "Love". Love is defined as pure connectedness, and lack of love as seperation. Fear is, of course, at its highest at the "lack of love" pole, while at "love" there is an absence of fear.

Originally Posted by yossarian

Anyway I don't mean to preach, I think people should believe whatever feels most congruent. I guess I feel compelled to speak up when I see what looks to me like dangerous confusion. But who am I to judge? I'm sure it's all for the best.

I, for one, have really appreciated your thoughts on this and its made me think and clarify my own thoughts too, so thank you for bringing this up. I hope I havent been too much of a frustration to you - I'm not sure that I've understood what you are really saying. I get that you are earnestly trying to get something across, but I believe I have missed it. Perhaps at some point I might actually look at steve's darkworker/lightworker theory in more detail. I suspect that would be helpful for any future discussion on the topic

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by JHL

I agree! (hope you were sitting down for that one). In my view, I would label the negative aspect of the scale as "Lack of love" and its opposite as "Love". Love is defined as pure connectedness, and lack of love as seperation. Fear is, of course, at its highest at the "lack of love" pole, while at "love" there is an absence of fear.

Sorry to say but you don't actually agree

A highly polarized negative entity has much love, but the love is directed inwards towards the self.

Positive polarity directs love outwards, and includes the self, because the love is for the entire creation.

Negative polarity fear is typified by fear of others and fear of their infringement. (Positive people experience this fear too, but as they polarize more and more it goes away almost completely.)

Positive polarity fear is typified by fear of the self harming others. (Negative people have this fear as well, but as they polarize more and more it goes away almost completely.)

Negative-syndrome (Just one syndrome of many) is therefore when a negative entity fears harming others, because this fear cripples him from further polarization and effectiveness.

Positive-syndrome (again, one of many) is when a positive entity fears himself being harmed, because this fear cripples his outward expression of love.

Of course essentially every type of fear could be called a syndrome IMO. I see no benefit to any of them. Polarization, on either front, is when you cultivate the love. Love for yourself or love for everything, the power is in the love.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by yossarian

Oh btw I forgot to mention..

The "dangerous confusion" IMO is starting to walk down the dark path without realising the full implications of that path. Walking down it while thinking that you aren't eventually going to be heavily drawn towards directly hurting others. If you go far enough, soon enough you'll reach a point where you have to enslave others, and you'll be stuck between a rock and a hard place.

I suspect going down the dark path to the point of enslaving others is not what Steve's darkworker idea is. It is more like Steve's darkworker syndrome. But I can agree with your statements on their own - negative paths of always looking out of only yourself, causes everyting to get worse.

Darkwork under Pavlina Polarity is about absorbing energy and hoarding it and intentional selfishness, and these things are negative polarity whether you call them "darkworking (a new concept)" or not. The selfishness without hurting others is basically just ankle-deep negative polarity.

The Pavlina darkworker is also told to avoid the syndrome. A healthy Pavlinian darkworker has been able to not have classic (evil) negative polarity.

The choice will be between depolarization (which is an expensive readjustment) and harming someone (which some people may not want to do).

A negative polarity person, by definition, is going about harming, that's what defines that state. Negative means hurting or not being healthy (same thing pain/bad health).

Depolarization - I don't understand what you mean by that. Depolarization of what model? Pavlina? or classical (evil/good)?

[yossarian]

In the classical model i'm talking about negative is not about hurting people.

It's about selfishness.

It just so happens that selfishness leads to hurting people.

Let's say you have an axis - a line - that indicates your polarity.

|------------------------------------------------------------|

The right side of this line is total positive polarization. Left side is total negative.

People start out here:

|-----------------------------X-----------------------------|

If they polarize towards the dark, whether they do it THINKING they are under "Pavlina polarity" or some other polarity, they are doing the behaviour that causes them to polarize, and they change to look like this:

|----------------------X-------------------------------------|

Eventually they run up against an obstacle and they have to make a choice.

|-------------HX---------------------------------------------|

The H is an obstacle that the person has to pass. He passes it by rededicating himself to the negative polarity - by proving that he is dedicated to selfishness.

In this case the H represents a decision between hurting someone for personal gain (like say, theft) and not doing it. The universe provided the person with the opportunity, and if the person abstains from the opportunity, he will depolarize like this:

|-------------H-----X---------------------------------------|

If he seizes the opportunity and commits theft for his own selfishness, then he instead looks like this:

|---------X--H-----------------------------------------------|

[wolfgang]

Why isn't that a description of darkworker syndrome?

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

Why isn't that a description of darkworker syndrome?

because darkworker syndrome implies something bad is happening

but since further polarization is the goal, Theft is the correct choice for a darkworker. The more polarized you are, the stronger you are, and the more spiritually developed, in a sense. Literally your magic power increases and the power of your intentions increase - your manifestations come sooner, stronger and more precisely.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by yossarian

If they polarize towards the dark, whether they do it THINKING they are under "Pavlina polarity" or some other polarity, they are doing the behaviour that causes them to polarize, and they change to look like this:

Negative polarity and darkworker polarity maybe different things.

I only say this out of trying to understand steve's model. Since he wrote that darkworkers are not causing themselves or others harm.

I think you are argueing for the classical negative/positive polarity and lumping Steve's ideas as the same thing. Which they aren't right? If a darkworker can become more effective, then a darkworker isn't the same axis as negative polarity.

To define negative polarity, isn't that just saying going in the direction of something that doesn't help or work and may cause harm? I don't think Steve was trying to say, polarize darkworker and make sure you are causing things to get worse. He did say that is the syndrome of darkworkers, that can happen.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by yossarian

because darkworker syndrome implies something bad is happening

but since further polarization is the goal, Theft is the correct choice for a darkworker. The more polarized you are, the stronger you are, and the more spiritually developed, in a sense. Literally your magic power increases and the power of your intentions increase - your manifestations come sooner, stronger and more precisely.

darkworker syndrome implies something isn't working very well (and maybe people are getting hurt).

I don't think further polarization (of Pavlina's kind) means to fall into the syndrome. Further polarization means being able to continue feeding the self and being able to recognize other's benifit and let that side happen, although other's benifiting is not the motivation behind the goals. Polarization, when taken to lower levels of consciousness heads toward the syndrome.

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

To define negative polarity, isn't that just saying going in the direction of something that doesn't help or work and may cause harm?

Absolutely not. it's "negative" in the same sense that electrons are negative. There are billions of electrons holding the world together - there is nothing wrong with them. Yet we call electrons "negatively charged."

The term negative is not meant to imply that it's someone "bad" or neccessarily destructive. I would say it is "evil" in a certain sense, but destruction is not the point.

The key thing is selfishness. Negative polarity is about selfishness and self-love. It just so happens that a strong selfishness will cause people to do acts considered by society to be immoral. But that is just society - what do they know?

Steve's advice on how to cultivate each polarity is IMO exactly right. To cultivate a "dark" polarity you focus on being selfish and on absorbing energy to yourself for your own benefit. But a natural part of this, along the path you travel, is going to be coercing others. Whether or not you know about the path, you are still traveling it.

Steve recommends the exact same practices to follow darkwork that the Church of Satan recommends - and this is what we'd expect otherwise there would be some incongruency somewhere. But the practices are the same - absorb energy into yourself for your own usage and benefit, focus on your own well being and interests entirely.

If the practices are the same, it doesnt matter what you call it or what you predict it will do. The path will be the same.

My bet is just that it will be helpful to people to know about this path before they travel it and find the obstacles on their own. I think a person with a strong bias towards unity may travel down the dark path for awhile, and may eventually realise it's not for him and then intentionally repolarize towards the positive. We always have free will. So in truth it's not much of a danger, and I hope I don't scare anyone from exploring that side of life.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by yossarian

Absolutely not. it's "negative" in the same sense that electrons are negative. There are billions of electrons holding the world together - there is nothing wrong with them. Yet we call electrons "negatively charged."

It sounds like the term is to imply that polarizing negative is possibly going to cause harm. Is that not what started your thread?
You said:"IMO you can't take the negative path without eventually enslaving others as a matter of course. That doesn't mean it's bad - slavery is a very natural thing and I encourage anyone who truly feels the call of the dark to pursue that."
So salvery is not to be viewed as bad? Huh? Then why do some many fight against that?

Alright - negative, at least you said this much, takes much longer to arrive at the same place being in positive polarity. So there's that negative to the negative polarity.

The key thing is selfishness. Negative polarity is about selfishness and self-love. It just so happens that a strong selfishness will cause people to do acts considered by society to be immoral. But that is just society - what do they know?

I actually posted stuff like this too. All wars are from selfishness motives. But that is what I would call low level of consciouessness, not darkworker polarity.


[quote]Steve's advice on how to cultivate each polarity is IMO exactly right. To cultivate a "dark" polarity you focus on being selfish and on absorbing energy to yourself for your own benefit. But a natural part of this, along the path you travel, is going to be coercing others. Whether or not you know about the path, you are still traveling it.

Steve recommends the exact same practices to follow darkwork that the Church of Satan recommends - and this is what we'd expect otherwise there would be some incongruency somewhere. But the practices are the same - absorb energy into yourself for your own usage and benefit, focus on your own well being and interests entirely.

If the practices are the same, it doesnt matter what you call it or what you predict it will do. The path will be the same.[quote]
Going into the negative polarity of yours is going into darkworker (or low level of consciouessness) syndrome.

My bet is just that it will be helpful to people to know about this path before they travel it and find the obstacles on their own. I think a person with a strong bias towards unity may travel down the dark path for awhile, and may eventually realise it's not for him and then intentionally repolarize towards the positive. We always have free will. So in truth it's not much of a danger, and I hope I don't scare anyone from exploring that side of life.

So you are argueing for the idea that the polarity changes as we grow (become more conscious)? And since you see classical negative polarity as the same as darkworker, it's all just a matter of the level of consciousness - nothing new.

I keep tyring to see that Steve's idea is not LOC stuff. Does he actually say, look, darkworkers are at low LOC and lightworkers are at high LOC? NO, I think so. Your classical negative polarity is the same as LOC axis but not whatever the heck Steve's polarity idea is.

[Theo77]

Well if you go far enough in the Lightworker path you will get martyred.

If you don't polarize, you will hurt others and other people will hurt you.

So if you polarize as a darkworker and you end up becoming so powerful, you are above the law, them yes Yossarian, you are probably right you will have to end up killing people. You Know, like if you become, a world dictator, or a CEO if an enormous multi-national corporation associated with the US Military Industrial Complex. You will make decisions on the level of causing life and death to other people.

I think if you get that high, you will have to do that even if you end up being a person history ends up considering a good guy.

Hitler is the old cliche stand by. But he never vaporized hundreds of thousands of people with a nuclear bomb. He burned them in gas ovens.

Its hard for me to say that wheras, gassing jews is evil, vaporizing Japenese is good.

Personally though, I think you can partake on a darkworker path without progressing to that kind of a level. What if you were a darkworker and you wanted to be an artist or a musician?

What kind of famous artist or musician would be faced with making life or death decisions?

[starlet]

Look at my sig. Selfishness can be good and evil. If you choose to steal, or trample, or harm someone in your bid for what you want, then yes, it is evil. But if you believe the Universe is abundant and that everything you want will come to you or you will be shown the way without harming anyone, then it is not evil.

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by Theo77

Well if you go far enough in the Lightworker path you will get martyred.

If you don't polarize, you will hurt others and other people will hurt you.

So if you polarize as a darkworker and you end up becoming so powerful, you are above the law, them yes Yossarian, you are probably right you will have to end up killing people. You Know, like if you become, a world dictator, or a CEO if an enormous multi-national corporation associated with the US Military Industrial Complex. You will make decisions on the level of causing life and death to other people.

I think if you get that high, you will have to do that even if you end up being a person history ends up considering a good guy.

Hitler is the old cliche stand by. But he never vaporized hundreds of thousands of people with a nuclear bomb. He burned them in gas ovens.

Its hard for me to say that wheras, gassing jews is evil, vaporizing Japenese is good.

Personally I think nuking the japanese was one of the great evil acts of the century. But thats another story

Personally though, I think you can partake on a darkworker path without progressing to that kind of a level. What if you were a darkworker and you wanted to be an artist or a musician?

What kind of famous artist or musician would be faced with making life or death decisions?

It doesnt have to be life or death, and it doenst have to be in this lifetime.

For a musician it could be as simple as lying - lying hurts people and so it's something a lightworker is going to generally not do. It could be a musician stealing music from another and passing it off as his own. He could try and destroy the competition to keep his music on the forefront. He could treat the people around in a dominating and coercive way rather than a loving and accepting way.

[Theo77]

For me, my pride would prevent me from stealing anothers work and passing it off as my own. I have too much confidence in my own ability. If no one found out, it would still matter to me.

You also seem to be assuming that a darkworker is simply after fame and fortune and is indifferent to the avenue to get there. You don't seem to allow that people can enjoy exercizing a gift and seeking to lead a fulfilling life doing what they love.

People that enjoy creating art or music, enjoy creating art or music. Tricking people is not the same thing. You make it sound as if darkworker musicians would naturally idolize Milli Vanilli!

[Theo77]

To me its about purity. Art for arts sake. Do it because I enjoy it. And being honest with myself, I want to make money at it. Recognition is good too!

To say, I am doing art to help starving children in the third world would be a lie. I think a direct approach would be lot more efficient. I think a light worker may be faced with giving up art in order to be a missionary or an aid worker.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Theo77

To me its about purity. Art for arts sake. Do it because I enjoy it. And being honest with myself, I want to make money at it. Recognition is good too!

To say, I am doing art to help starving children in the third world would be a lie. I think a direct approach would be lot more efficient. I think a light worker may be faced with giving up art in order to be a missionary or an aid worker.

And a darkworker approach to becoming a muscian may be faced with being tempted to sell out - where one starts to figure out what people want and do that just so the admiration from the fans happens (that would be syndrome-ish).

[starlet]

Originally Posted by Theo77

You also seem to be assuming that a darkworker is simply after fame and fortune and is indifferent to the avenue to get there. You don't seem to allow that people can enjoy exercizing a gift and seeking to lead a fulfilling life doing what they love.

Exactly. I could not have said it better myself

[yossarian]

not every behavior in the world is polarized

99% of people are unpolarized

so you cant just say "what about this arbitrary behavior? is that lightwork or darkwork?" because 99% of those arbitrary behaviours are just normal humans doing normal unpolarized things

if you do art for the sake of art, dont exactly care about other people but are unwilling to dedicate yourself to youself, and just want to dick around in life and explore the various pleasures of the material world, polarization is not for you

polarization is a rare spiritual calling that, in any given lifetime, very few people undertake and very few achieve.

it's not a universal model for human behaviour.

it applies to the highly successful only - the extremes of society. It applies to Mohandas Gandhi and Julius Caesar. It doesn't to Bill the truck-driver or Apu working at the quicki-mart.

You want to do music? Why? Just to enjoy the sensory stimulation of life? You can do that without playing music, you can just enjoy the music created by others. Why MAKE music? Why CREATE? It's hard work to create, especially to create something meaningful and good. I can say that you won't be highly successful at music without polarization. Some do music to tell a story and therefore help the world, some do music for fame and fortune. Those two achieve great success, and there is no third category.

99% of the people in the world are mediocre and 99% don't polarize. This isn't a bad thing it's just how it is. Spirituality is the last thing on a typical person's mind.

[Theo77]

Yossarian,
So How would you categorize getting all preachy on a message board?

You aren't making money, but I guess you get to sound smart. Self centered?

You could say you are "helping" people I guess...

Well, I got some more dicking around to do, I mean art!

These discussions are just too deep for my little mind.