Polyphasic Sleep - One Year Later (Blog)

[Savage]

Use this thread to discuss the following entry from Steve Pavlina's blog:

Polyphasic Sleep - One Year Later

[Jeff Lilly]

Hi Steve,

It's been almost a year since I finished my own polyphasic experiments (inspired by yours, of course), and I've noticed exactly the same napping phenomena that you have.

The first time I tried it, last April, I adapted very quickly -- even faster than you did, I think. The special napping that's required was easy for me to pick up. I had very little trouble keeping to the napping schedule, and I found that I was pretty functional throughout the 24-hour period. However, I gave it up after two weeks, because my alertness and mood were still erratic and unpredictable from cycle to cycle. During some cycles, I was still fighting sleep for the entire four hours, which was not fun. During these cycles, I found that my mind started playing tricks on me, and I would look back at emails I'd written during that time and wonder what on earth I'd been thinking. I also had to drive two hours to Boston three times a week, and that just got scary. But other times, I was perfectly alert and had no problems at all. So I gave it up.

Since I can be a stubborn idiot sometimes, I tried again in May. This time the adaptation was much faster -- in fact, there was hardly any adaptation at all; I just slipped back into it. But I found that, after two weeks, the adaptation hadn't proceeded any further than it had the first time, and the driving was scary again. So I dropped it.

I should note that I am not vegan in general, but concurrently with the second polyphasic experiment, I was trying veganism for a month. I have no doubt that diet has a huge role to play in these sleeping patterns.

Anyway, I wish I knew some way to push past the two-week barrier here! I sure could use the extra time...

[ahimel]

I never did manage to push through into fully polyphasic sleep, but my 1-2 week trial period also left me with an interesting sleep pattern: a 52-minute sleep cycle.

Most people have a sleep cycle of around 90 minutes, meaning that if you get less than 90 minutes sleep, you'll be tired and groggy. After my polyphasic experiment, I found that if left to my own devices, I would sleep for 52 minutes and then wake up. When I woke up in the middle of the night, it was at a multiple of 52 minutes after I went to bed. If I set my alarm for 52 minutes after bedtime, I woke up feeling good; somewhere between 52-minute multiples, and I felt terrible.

It's not quite as nice as polyphasic sleep, but it's had its benefits. Foremost among them is the fact that I can get a full-sleep-cycle nap in during my lunch hour. (Most people would only get 2/3 through their sleep cycle, and wake up feeling worse than when they went to sleep.)

Anyway, overall I'd say that there are a lot more variations on the sleep pattern than are generally announced, and you should experiment to see what's right for you. It's not just 8-hour monophasic or 20-minute polyphasic, any more than a diet can be only vegan or carnivorous.

[CeciL]

Polyphasic sleep was the reason I found Steve's site. His site was the best on the subject matter, I started monitoring his blog and before you know it I was hooked.

It took about 3 tries before I got into the groove and lasted for about 2 months. In my experience, to pull off polyphasic sleep you need to stop caffeine intake, no drugs (cigs, alcohol, weed, blah, blah), vegan diet and some time to waste... TV at night on the couch is not a good idea either.

I was quite surprised to adapt because I generally sleep like a ROCK and I still do now. I will say though, naps are a bit more refreshing now than pre-polyphasic times.

[Adrienne]

I have thought about trying this. I really want to but unfortunately my life does not lend itself to that flexibility right now.
You really don’t want someone who is trying to adapt to a new sleep schedule giving you emergency medical care or driving you to the hospital.. right? For me, this issue is compounded by whenever i get a day off, i pull extra time to volunteering at the fire station. I hope this year in December when i take a couple weeks off, i can also get off the emt schedule so I can really try this the way it is meant to.
Thanks for the follow up Steve. I loved that series that you wrote.

Adrienne

[Haurum]

I've always been dreaming during my powernaps, don't think it's a bi-product of your polyphasic sleep.

[Savage]

I wonder if the habit of napping while still sleeping monophasically could make it easier to go polyphasic. I wasn't a regular napper before testing polyphasic sleep. YMMV.

[Scott]

Speaking as someone who's semi-adapted to polyphasic sleep no fewer than three times now (though never for longer than a few weeks, unfortunately), I can say that most of what you've hypothesized did hold true in my experience. My most recent adaptation, which I wrote about on my website (don't try to go there now, since I'm upgrading the server ), was essentially finished in 5-6 days. I did have a couple of rough patches after that, and have since returned to monophasic because of my work schedule (though I've figured out how to work around it, and will probably try again soon). But getting to the point - it's definitely gotten easier each time, and now when I occasionally take an afternoon nap, it often feels as if I've been sleeping for hours.

As for you making the adaptation again... DO IT! DO IT! DO IT!

[CarrieB]

I wasn't subscribed during your polyphasic experiment, so this is my first introduction to the topic.

What a shocker for me - I didn't even *know* there were official technical terms for folks like me who sleep in 2 shifts. I have always been this way. I've tried, tried, tried to get out of it and sleep "like a normal person" (always due to the nagging of my parents both as a kid and even now when I'm mid-thirties and a wife and mom, and just general societal guilt) and my attempts at "normal" (monophasic) sleep NEVER last longer than 2 weeks. My body always forces me back into biphasic sleep.

I am much, much, MUCH more productive and at peace in the wee hours of the morning. There are far less distractions, everything is quiet and peaceful, and I can actually concentrate and get stuff DONE. Compared to the daylight hours when I'm awake, I'm at least 300% more productive at night.

I normally sleep 3-4 hours at "night" -for me this would be starting around 3 or 4 am- and another hour or two at the most in the evening -somewhere between either noon to 2pm or 5 and 7pm (according to what my body needs and when it needs it). A couple days per week I can go without the evening nap; but if I go 2 or 3 days straight without it, I end up crashing; sleeping for a straight 9 hours and feeling like I've been run over by a truck.

Sleeping this way is very flexible and runs according to my physical/mental needs - not some arbitrary schedule that I've set. My own body knows best, regardless of how organized I'd like to be. It is physically impossible for me to say "I will take my evening nap at 5pm every evening"... it just doesn't work like that. I lay down when I need to lay down.

Regarding dreaming: I've also always been a very vivid dreamer all of my life. Full color, in-depth dreams that I can break out of and enter back into at will. I can also take control of my dreams; change things, go back to a certain part, etc. (Quite useful when a dream starts turning uncomfortable.) As a kid I thought everyone could do this; it wasn't until I got into high school that I realized they couldn't.

Reading the other posts here from folks trying poly/bi/tri-phasic sleep (including the list of related discussions) and how many of them had trouble getting past the 2-week period FINALLY validated my own experiences trying to be a "normal" monophasic sleeper - in mirrored form. They're trying to be "weird", I was trying to be "normal". I'm definitely going to be hunting the net for more articles on biphasic sleep now that I know it's an actual VALID documented and even (dare I say it?) normal way of sleeping.

Probably the worst part of this is that my eldest son is also a natural "night owl" like me and that gets him into all kinds of trouble with my husband, who wants the kids in bed by a certain hour every night no matter what. (Funnily enough, he simply accepts MY weird sleep hours as one of my natural "quirks", but he doesn't accept it as "natural" in our son.)

Coming from a lifelong natural biphasic sleeper, let me list some of the cons you'll encounter once you become biphasic:

• Everyone, and I do mean everyone, will give you grief about not sleeping "normal" hours. You'll hear the outdated, based-on-farming-hours quote "early to bed, early to rise" far more than you'd ever thought possible. It will be hard to restrain yourself from simply smacking people when they look down their nose and quip this ancient outdated "wisdom" at you.
• You'll end up being asleep when your significant other (who is on monophasic sleep) is awake. This can cause some resentment from them; especially if you have children that they then have to handle alone for the evening nap. But hey, if you're a stay-at-home parent like I am (we also homeschool so the kids are here ALL day), it's only fair play, lol. Be aware that your *opportunity* for "quality time" with the family is reduced; but it doesn't have to be if you're creative. In my case, I get plenty of quality time with my kids all day long because they're not heading off to school for 10 hours a day. Plus I consider my hubby's time with the kids to be *his* daily "quality time".
• Running errands becomes a real pain in the butt. Luckily, more stores are switching over to a 24-hour format, but certainly not enough of them.
• Your electric bill will change since you're using more power to keep things lit up while it's dark out. On a good note, these are the hours when electricity is the cheapest, and if you remember to turn off the computers during "peak" hours and do something else such as household chores during that time, you'll actually see your bill decrease instead of rise.

I hope that more of you can make a real switch over to multiple sleep cycles. It would certainly help me, as the more of us there are, the more society itself will stop trying to dictate when we should sleep and they'll make operating hours of business more flexible.

[gps408]

I would love to see another polyphasic sleep experiment. Like CeciL, that's how I found this site in the first place and I'm glad I did! I think it would be quite something if Steve discovered it was easy to switch between mono and polyphasic after an initial adaption period.

I wonder how difficult the transition is from poly to monophasic? I think in his article Steve just wrote that he'd returned to monophasic sleep. Is it easy to get a full night's sleep immediately? Do you suddenly feel like you don't have enough time to do anything? And how about time perception, do the days and months suddenly seem to fly by? (I remember Steve talking about how he couldn't believe so few weeks had gone by at one point). Anybody have any experience of the 'return trip'?

[kpollock]

Interestingly, I have all my life fallen into REM Sleep in my naps, and fall asleep really quickly, frequently straight into REM. I believe that this is generally portrayed as a hallmark of sleep deprivation - but I do wonder.

I have *never* slept more than 7 hours at a stretch - and that has been about twice or 3 times in my whole life (I am 35). I cannot stay awake easily for long periods. Hard to give you a typical sleep pattern, it varies hugely how often I wake up and for how long, but this one isn't unlikely:

Go to bed, go to sleep very fast, often straight to REM for 20 or 40 minutes (maybe as much as 60-90). Then I'll probably go straight back to sleep for 3-5 hours. It is probably about 3:30 - 5:30 by now. Then I'll be awake for an unspecified period of time. Depends on the company and other distractions offered ;-) (which can use up half an hour, an hour, two hours - you know how it is....). Maybe then I get up, or if I (or boyfriend) are tired, have a light nap/doze again for an hour or so. If it is light - I tend to want to be up and about.

In the normal course of the day - I get pretty tired after 8 hours, really tired after 12 - but do just fine with my sleep being in widely seperated chunks - which is really handy in my hobby of sailing, including offshore racing. Typically in anything over a day sail, you go into 'watches' there you have 4 hours 'on' (awake) 4 hours 'off' (asleep) or 3 on, 3 standby (stay dressed and on deck but can doze if you aren't needed) and 3 off.

I have observed that most people go strong for the first 24-36 hours then flag dramatically thereafter - mostly due to not getting their full sleep time and basically just staying awake. This is fine for weekend races/sailing but not for (a)week(s) at sea! I go straight into the watch pattern and have no trouble sleeping when it is my slot to. I am also very alert in the 4am-8am type slots which most people hate.

I used to worry about my sleep pattern - particularly since I suffered very badly from afternoon tiredness, but I now think it is normal (for me, at least). The afternoon tiredness is much less these days - I gave up caffeine and alcohol, which seemed to do the trick. I still prefer to do my heavy thinking at work in the morning and will alwyas coem in early rather than stay late, but that's not so bad :-)

ARGH!! I made a whole raft of additions and lost them!!! I particularly wanted to agree with CarrieB re: feeling 'abnormal' and social pressures. I will get back to it after work!

quick one:

Circadiana

[yagazuzy]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

I wonder if the habit of napping while still sleeping monophasically could make it easier to go polyphasic.

In my experience, the habit of napping has definitely made it easier to transition to the full uberman schedule. My first attempt was full of undisciplined oversleeps and an inability to fall asleep during naps. Not only did I practice napping for many months after that, but I slipped quite easily into the full uberman schedule from an afternoon nap schedule, and any napping problems were eliminated, and I was relatively alert.

I did not stop that second round because it was hard to stay awake. I stopped because I started a raw diet about 3 weeks previous, and I began to experience intense detox symptoms of headache and nausea. Going raw and doing polyphasic at the same time was too much for my body.

As I gear up for my 3rd attempt, I've started a regular napping schedule again.

[yagazuzy]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lilly

However, I gave it up after two weeks, because my alertness and mood were still erratic and unpredictable from cycle to cycle.

Most people find that they need a month to begin feeling totally adjusted to the schedule. Everyone is different, but from the many cases of ideal transitions I've seen, it usually takes people a week or so to begin feeling considerably better, and a month to begin feeling more integrated. That entire time period consists of evening out periods of wakefulness and periods of sleepiness into something more homogeneous.

Keep in mind that most people don't get it on the first attempt, and the above assumes that one has a decent level of self-discipline. Uncontrollable oversleeps and unrestful naps are a recipe for disaster, which is why I recommend that one practice napping before attempting the transition (napping really is a skill and an art that one must master).

[yagazuzy]

Originally Posted by ahimel

Most people have a sleep cycle of around 90 minutes, meaning that if you get less than 90 minutes sleep, you'll be tired and groggy. After my polyphasic experiment, I found that if left to my own devices, I would sleep for 52 minutes and then wake up.

In both my research and my personal experience, I have found the 90 minute cycle to hold true. It's especially obvious if I take an afternoon nap without setting a time limit: I'll wake up exactly 1.5 hours later. However, I did meet a person who says he naps every afternoon for ~45 minutes, and that's perfect for him.

Perhaps some people just have a really short cycle, or perhaps it's really not a complete cycle after all. This article outlines various types of naps including the "Lazy Man's Nap" from 50-90 minutes. "You must keep the nap to 20 minutes or slightly less, and if you need the extra sleep, wait until the 50-minute mark."

[Jeff Lilly]

That was really, really helpful to know, yagazuzy. Thank you!

BTW, I just dropped by your blog. It's fascinating to see all the various personal and professional projects you've got going. I'll be coming by again!

I was also very interested to see your notes regarding the eclipses; I'm a dabbler in astrology, but I hadn't been aware of those. I also had been thinking about polyphasia again right before Steve posted. I think it's going to take some work to get my wife to agree to my trying it again, though... Maybe, if I work on intention manifestation really hard, I can get her to suggest it to me... :-)

Thanks again!

[placebo]

This sounds cool, like charging batteries you enter in REM for 20 minutes period.
While i was in highschool i usually went to sleep around 1 am and woke up at 6 am. During the day i was napping for about hour or hour 1/2. Like many of you i've noticed that sometimes sleeping for half an hour seems like sleeping for a whole night. Wish that someone explore this phenomenon more, it could be useful in so many ways. Maybe in 1000 years people will sleep only 2 hours per day.

I was using that pattern 4 years, now i'm in college and WW 3 wouldn't wake me up at 6 am.

[Whitehealer]

I wonder if there is another level beyond polyphasic sleeping. I recall reading in a book ( I think it was either Living with the Himalayan Masters by Swami Rama, or perhaps a biography of Meher Baba)... anyway there was a saint in the book who never slept and basically replaced sleep completely with a few hours of a meditation. She didn't have much positive to say about sleep as I recall.

[kpollock]

I have found that an extended flow state can substitute for a night's sleep quite easily. Similar to meditation?

[Andrew Brunelle]

I have not tried the polyphasic experiment, but if I ever take a nap during the day, I do experience time dilation. Even if I am to wake up in the morning, and go back to sleep, I seem to have a dream almost every time I sleep and it feels like at least an hour, but the dream is 20 minutes or less. I wake up 20 minutes later, and it seems like so much more time has passed. So this "time dilation" may not just be a side-effect of polyphasic sleep, but maybe napping in general. I am just going on my own experiences.

[yagazuzy]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lilly

That was really, really helpful to know, yagazuzy. Thank you!

NP, Jeff. Also, just FYI, feel free to join the google group where many of us polyphasers hang out, discuss polyphasic sleep related stuff, and offer support/advice to those trying (formerly Uberman Yahoo group):

Polyphasic Sleep | Google Groups

There is a wealth of information in the archives. Currently though, the archives are not searchable because Google does not index HTML messages for now, and most of the messages are HTML (imagine the king of search not indexing html messages). The abandoned, spam-ridden Yahoo group is still searchable though (uberman : Uberman sleep schedule).

[yagazuzy]

Originally Posted by placebo

This sounds cool, like charging batteries you enter in REM for 20 minutes period.

The idea that REM sleep dominates polyphasic sleep is actually a misconception, one that I've been meaning to correct. REM sleep is no more or less important than NREM sleep, and the body does not get a higher proportion of REM sleep when sleeping polyphasically as opposed to monophasically.

EEG measurements on polyphasic sleeping test subjects show a slight decrease in the proportion of lighter sleep stages to deeper sleep stages, but all sleep stages are maintained in roughly the same proportions as compared to monophasic sleep schedules. Certain naps will often be dominated by one sleep stage. For example, one nap may be almost entirely composed of gamma wave sleep (REM) while the next one is filled predominantly with delta wave sleep (NREM). The main difference between mono and poly sleep schedules is that a polyphasic sleeper will generally enter deep sleep stages much more quickly than a monophasic sleeper.

For more information and for specific numbers, anyone interested can read Why We Nap by Claudio Stampi. Stampi became fascinated with solo sailors who were able to reduce their sleep needs and performed scientific tests in the late 80s and published his results in that book.

[Jill]

Has it really been a year already since you stopped it, Steve? Wow...time flies. (Seeing Erin's Anniversary post makes me wonder if you stopped as an anniversary present to her last year? )

I was riveted to the polyphasic sleep posts as well. Not that I'd ever be interested in doing it, it was just fascinating. Also, my 18 year old daughter has sleep habits much like CarrieB's. It seems to work well for her.

[taylor]

I kept polyphasic sleep imperfectly for one month. Before then, I couldn't nap during the day. Now I can. That's what I gained.

Even though I wasted more time on polyphasic than I gained, I had a great time adapting to it. It was a really interesting experience and I'd try it again if I had a plausible strategy. It only turns out my body didn't quite let me adapt to it. I always crashed with complete adaptation just out of reach. I got as far as dreams in multiple naps throughout the day. But never all of them. I developed sleeping disorders, like sleep walking, to get my body the beloved REM. All of that stopped though when I slept a full 8 hours again. But, what if it didn't? This is potentially dangerous stuff to play around with.

[Dan.Linehan]

THE ARCADE FIRE - "Rebellion (Lies)"

Sleeping in is giving in, no matter what the time is.
Sleeping in is giving in, so lift those heavy eyelids.

People say that you'll die, faster than without water.
But we know it's just a lie, scare your son, scare your daughter.

People say that your dreams are the only things that save ya.
Come on baby in our dreams, we can live our misbehaviour.

Everytime you close your eyes lies, lies! (4x)

People try and hide the night underneath the covers.
People try and hide the light underneath the covers.

Come on hide your lovers underneath the covers.
Come on hide your lovers underneath the covers.
Hidin' from your brothers underneath the covers.
Come on hide your lovers underneath the covers.

People say that you'll die faster than without water.
But we know it's just a lie, scare your son, scare your daughter.

Now here's the sun, it's alright! Now here's the moon, it's alright!
Now here's the sun, it's alright! Now here's the moon, it's alright!

But everytime you close your eyes, lies!

[yagazuzy]

Originally Posted by yagazuzy

For example, one nap may be almost entirely composed of gamma wave sleep (REM) while the next one is filled predominantly with delta wave sleep (NREM).

Oops, I meant to say theta waves, not gamma waves.

[ahimel]

Originally Posted by yagazuzy

REM sleep is no more or less important than NREM sleep, and the body does not get a higher proportion of REM sleep when sleeping polyphasically as opposed to monophasically.

I'd be interested to know your source on that. My understanding is that when study groups were allowed very little sleep, but were allowed to complete their REM cycles, they functioned almost as well as if they'd gotten a full night's sleep. When other groups were allowed 8 hours of sleep, but awakened before REM set in (so that it was all NREM sleep) they functioned almost as poorly as if they'd gotten no sleep at all. So it seems to me that REM sleep is very much more important.

Now, it still may be that polyphasic sleepers get the same proportion of REM to NREM sleep -- I've seen no studies on that. But I'm curious to know where your information comes from.

[yagazuzy]

Originally Posted by ahimel

I'd be interested to know your source on that. My understanding is that when study groups were allowed very little sleep, but were allowed to complete their REM cycles, they functioned almost as well as if they'd gotten a full night's sleep.

There is one thing that you might not have realized, and that is that in order to acheive REM sleep, you have to first pass through all the stages of NREM sleep, so it's impossible to judge which one is more important that way (since there's no way to get *only* REM sleep). In fact, since the body strives for NREM sleep first, that would suggest that it is more important than REM. Indeed, studies have shown that when the body does not get one or the other type of sleep, it compensates by getting more of that sleep stage the next time. So it would seem that they are equally important.

As for the information on polyphasic sleeping, as mentioned in my last post, my source is Why We Nap by Claudio Stampi. It is out of print, so you'll probably have to go to the Library of Commerce to get it (that's what I had to do since most libraries don't have it).

[psp]

Steve,

It would be most interesting experiment to determine if you can get back into polyphasic without the ramp up. I recall a discovery special or such which outlined how the brains of spacestation visitors had a heck of a time learning coordination in microgravity - and some trouble adjusting to gravity again when they returned.

The interesting thing was that after the first trip - they could re-adapt in minutes. Not that they were consiously doing this. It's as if thier brain just loaded the right program (saved from the first learning experiences) for the right environment.

A friend has terrible trouble sleeping - tried everything. He cant go polyphasic as a final solution - but if it can be a learned program that can be used in an otherwise monophasic pattern, as you've described, it may be valuable. Thanks for that.

This was the 'year later' blog post that had enough synchronicity to have me join your forum. So for what it's worth - why dont you give it a go and see if your an astronaut

[WesternBuddhist]

I've never tried polyphasic sleeping but I am greatly interested in it. The part that seems the most difficult is the adjustment phase of it all or basically the first two weeks.

So what would happen if you spread it out over several weeks?

For example:

Week 1: 6 Hours of sleep at night. 1 nap (60 mins). 7 hours total of sleep/day.

Week 2: 5 Hours of sleep at night. 2 naps (40 mins x 2). 6 hours and 20 minutes of sleep/day. 40 minutes less than the previous week.

Week 3: 4 Hours of sleep at night. 3 naps (30 mins x 3). 5 1/2 hours of sleep/day. 1 hour and 10 minutes less than the previous week.

Week 4: 3 Hours of sleep at night. 4 naps (20 mins x 4). 4 hours and 20 minutes of sleep/day. 1 hour and 10 minutes less than the previous week.

Week 5: 2 Hours of sleep at night. 5 naps (20 mins x 5). 3 1/2 hours of sleep/day. 1 hour and 10 minutes less than the previous week.

Week 6: Full Polyphasic. 6 naps (20 mins x 6). 2 hours of sleep/day.

Looking at it this way I could easily fit the first 3 weeks into my schedule without much adjustment to a regular 9-5 officer hours. I'm going to have to think about this more.

[DeepSpace]

Is the Polyphasic sleep supposed to make you more productive ? I understand one would have more time but is it worth it ?