Go Hunting (Blog)

[Savage]

If you're a meat eater and you can't personally kill an animal in the simplest way possible, such as by pushing a button to activate a machine that will kill a rabbit to be eaten afterwards, then that's a significant incongruency.

That incongruency, should you allow it to persist, will affect far more than just your meal times. This deep-seated cowardice and lack of responsibility will inevitably cause problems in other areas of your life, but the lack of awareness will make those problems very difficult to solve.

In fact, meat eaters are already pushing the button to kill the rabbit. This is the act of purchasing meat. The incongruency isn't that they can't push the button. The incongruency is being unable to admit that they already are pushing the button.

You see... meat eaters are capable of killing an animal, and quite often they can do it with nary a concern for the animal's well being or even if it was humanely killed or well-treated during its life. They'll go out and buy a burger just the same. That's the button press. In this society, that's all it takes.

Most meat eaters will happily push the button to cage an animal, force feed it anti-biotics, and kill it. Why? Because it tastes good. That's the only real concern. But they pretend they couldn't do it and create a cognitive disconnect because they're unwilling to face that this is the kind of person they really are. They'd be a lot more integrated and conscious if they followed Asmoday's lead.

It's rather goofy to be a meat eater and say you couldn't personally kill the animal. Many do it as a matter of course. They just don't realize that their actions, over time, do add up to the deliberate killings of individual animals. They kill for the sheer joy of eating meat. In most cases, they really don't care a whit about the life of the animals that feed them. And to pretend that they do care is just folly.

If you care AND you keep pushing the button, it will be an emotionally difficult experience to eat meat at the very least. But if you can do it without hesitation, your next step is simply to accept that you can kill animals no problem -- and be okay with whatever that means to you.

[Angela]

Hmmm, maybe that could be part of CGW -- carnivores must go out into the desert and kill something and eat it!

[James81]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

If you're a meat eater and you can't personally kill an animal in the simplest way possible, such as by pushing a button to activate a machine that will kill a rabbit to be eaten afterwards, then that's a significant incongruency.

Holy crap, this is ripe for a mad lib!

If you're a tall rabbit and you can't personally wax cars with mittens, such as by imminent domain, than that's a spicy meatball!

[Carl Carlson IV]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Why? Because it tastes good.

not to mention the amount of energy packed in there to refuel !

[RomanHD]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

If you're a meat eater and you can't personally kill an animal in the simplest way possible, such as by pushing a button to activate a machine that will kill a rabbit to be eaten afterwards, then that's a significant incongruency.

If you're a pro-choice liberal and you can't personally perform an abortion in the simplest way possible, such as by [insert something violent here], then that's a significant incongruency.

Right?

[aelle]

Originally Posted by RomanHD

If you're a pro-choice liberal and you can't personally perform an abortion in the simplest way possible, such as by [insert something violent here], then that's a significant incongruency.

Right?

When you have an abortion you are very active in the process. You sign consent forms, you reassess several times to several different people that you are sure you want to do this, in the case of early, medical abortions you swallow the pill yourself. So yeah, there's no way you can close your eyes and let yourself be aborted and pretend not to be responsible for your choice, the way you can with eating meat.

[Savage]

Originally Posted by RomanHD

If you're a pro-choice liberal and you can't personally perform an abortion in the simplest way possible, such as by [insert something violent here], then that's a significant incongruency.

Right?

Setting aside the skill requirements of the doctor for the sake of argument, then yes, I'd agree. But in this case the involvement is pretty direct already, so I'd say that in terms of responsibility, people who make that choice are already there.

More consideration also goes into it since it's not something you do every day -- AFAIK people aren't generally raised from a young age to have daily abortions.

[invisiblehouses]

I'm incongruent in this area. I don't think I could kill anything. I shot a pigeon once with a BB gun when I was 13 and went home and cried. However, there are other incongruencies and negatively-spiraling patterns (StevePavlina dot com Personal Development for Smart People Podcast Number Four for Friday, October 7th, 2005 FTW!) that are causing more immediate problems. I get poor results when I try to work on everything at the same time, so I choose to prioritize.

I'll probably end up in the veggie camp anyway. I did a 30-day vegan trial last year and had great results. Lost eight pounds without trying, had a ton of energy and mental clarity. The only real downside was that I got lazy towards the end and practiced a little too much seitanism (and wore out seitan/Satan puns for all time). I also tried regular ol' lacto-ovo-vegetarian for 60 days and gained weight, felt worse than I ever did as an omnivore and even had a gout attack. So that variation is out. I'll get back. I trust the process.

What strikes me as really bizarre is that I once read an old Ted Nugent interview in which he was saying pretty much the same thing Steve was saying in the original post. While I'm sure my feelings about The Nuge are somewhat clouded by his recent loudmouthery, these are still not two people I'd normally expect to remind me of one another.

[Marth]

While there aren't many wild cows and pigs to hunt (that I know of), we do hunt birds and they are incredibly stupid creatures. Chicken, Turkey, Grouse, they are best served as food :\ Pigs are very smart, I respect them and do not eat any pig. Deer can be elegant and venison tastes disgusting anyways.

I personally believe animals are on a much lower level of life worth than human beings. Human life is precious, animals should be respected as what they are.

[Betrade]

I have no problem with killing what I eat and have been doing it my entire life. I just had some gorgeous fish fillets a few nights ago I caught, killed an filleted. You can't buy food of this quality or this fresh anywhere. Going from a mountain stream to the dinner plate in a matter of hours is as fresh as it gets.

I've also killed and eaten deer, rabbit and squirrels, quail, pheasant and dove my whole life as my parents and grandparents did. Killing, plucking and gutting chickens from the chicken house is no big deal either where I come from. I've participated in the killing and butchering of pigs but I'm not really into pork personally. I've also seen cows slaughtered a number of times but haven't done it but I definitely have no problem at all eating beef. In fact, I love beef.

I do however have a rule that I ONLY kill that which I intend to eat. I don't believe in wasting a life but I have no problem killing it to convert into food/energy. I also thoroughly ENJOY eating fresh killed meat. There's nothing better IMO.

I also have no problem with meat eaters who can't kill. It's typically because they were never raised/taught to do so and in no way makes them any "less" than anyone who doesn't partake in the eating of meat anymore than those who don't are any "better' than anyone else.

Anyone who thinks that they are somehow 'better", or more compassionate, caring, etc. for not killing or eating meat are only deluding themselves into some false sense of superiority, but it's not true superiority of any kind. Most people wouldn't even exist had their forefathers and mothers not had livestock or access to it in order to eat.

Fruits and vegetables are also living things too and must die in order to help others live. That's the way this world is set up to operate. If they were able to cry out in pain when they were bing chopped, picked or ground up would that make it somehow "bad" to eat them?? Not in my world it wouldn't.

[WarrenG]

I still think, as was pointed out in the first page of the thread, that if it's an area of growth to go hunting to make real the consequences of your decisions, the same should hold true for other purchasing decisions. Like the iPad factory thing.

Maybe you go hunting, and as a result will abstain from eating meat for ethical reasons, and this feels right and more congruent to you. Awesome!

Maybe the next step is to hire a few people, make them work 12 hour days and pay them a dollar, make them miserable, etc. Yeah, they don't die, but still. As Steve said earlier, the act of purchasing is pushing the button.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I'm not saying it's a contradiction to be a vegetarian and also own an iPad - just that it's another source of potential incongruity, that we might not be aware of in the same way that we're not aware of the meat thing until we go hunting (or visit a slaughter house).

And if this is correct, how far do we take it? Our clothes, cars, furnishings, who we have our mortgage with, if we have a mortgage? If we're aiming for increased compassion and to leave the world in a better place than how we found it, why stop at meat?

Thoughts?

[Mounds]

I would like to urge inexperienced people to abstain from trying to kill animals in order to prove a point. Best case scenario, a few people stop eating meat. Worst case scenario, a bunch of yo-yo's wander through the forest shooting at anything that moves.

-Tim

[cdavis]

I acknowledge eating meat is technically a form of murder, actually it's not even technically a form of murder, it *is* murder, but I still do it. If I had to I'd kill animals to feed myself, I would, but I'm afforded the luxury of using a grocery store so I'll stick to that until I need to come up with other means.

I think veganism is noble but inherently flawed in many ways. It humanizes animals as if the loss of a goat is somehow equivalent to the loss of a human being when it's not, not at all. Does anyone here remember that scene out of Donnie Darko where Jake Gyllenhal argues with Drew Barrymore over the life of a rabbit being equivalent to the life of a human? Bleeding heart animal activists humanize animals a little too much sometimes. They act as if animals are fully able to experience and perceive suffering in the way a human being does when they don't.

I think they should have to experience as little pain and suffering as possible but if some pain and some suffering is involved, I mean, what are you going to do?? At least some pain and some suffering occurs in almost every living being on this planet, or on this dimension probably for that matter, and I don't find killing an animal in order to sustain yourself to be wrong on any level. Do you really think a lion in the bush would afford you the same courtesy?

Call me a monster but even though I eat meat, I at least acknowledge it for what it is. And yes, if for some reason a situation came up where I had to do it in order to eat, I'd kill the animals myself.

[cdavis]

whoa ok I just re-read my post there at the end and it sounded kind of cold which was not my intention lol

what I meant to say was that should I have to for whatever unlikely reason need to fend for myself when it comes to getting food, I wouldn't really have a problem killing an animal. I don't love the idea, I think it's sad, but it would be a necessary evil.

And I have tried to go vegan in the past and very unsuccesfully so. And I studied it and even went on all the supplements and did all the right food combinations that are supposed to guarantee proper nutrient absorption. My body metabolizes plant proteins in a way that is very different from animal proteins. I don't know what the exact science is behind this but I feel like I am running on empty if I go longer than a week or two without some kind of meat.

Plus I can not build muscle for the life of me with just plant protein, which is a major concern of mine too. Whenever I have gone veg in the past, I literally just seem to wilt away.

[Neal2009]

I guess I'm an animal Rights activitst worst nightmare. Not only do I have no problem with going out hunting and killing my meat, I wouldn't have a problem if it was well cooked cat, dog, rabbit or whatever fave domesticated animal you have of choice.

If it's a choice of me or them, It's gonna be me. I can't live on nuts and berries.

The reason that I haven't ever gone hunting is simple conivinence. It would be very hard to go hunting living in the capital city of England and why hunt when the supermarket is round the corner.

But put me in a life or death situation, in a field full of deer in the wilderness somewhere and bambi is going down.

If it's tasty it's tasty. There are somethings you should sacrifice for a longer and more healthly life. In my opinion meat is not one of them. I've read enough on the subject to make the desison that the perceived benefits don't outweigh for me the drawbacks.

[yossarian]

I think Steve should write more about the actual nature of "being conscious" and what this really means.

This hunting argument is basically:

A- It is good to be conscious of your behaviour.
B- If you aren't aware that you're killing animals you aren't conscious of your behaviour.
C- Therefore, it is good to be aware that you're killing animals.

The real question here is about premise A.

Why is it good to be conscious of your behaviour? I'm not convinced.

I see plenty of very happy, successful people and they do it by well-directed ignorance.

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by Neal2009

I guess I'm an animal Rights activitst worst nightmare. Not only do I have no problem with going out hunting and killing my meat, I wouldn't have a problem if it was well cooked cat, dog, rabbit or whatever fave domesticated animal you have of choice.

If it's a choice of me or them, It's gonna be me. I can't live on nuts and berries.

The reason that I haven't ever gone hunting is simple conivinence. It would be very hard to go hunting living in the capital city of England and why hunt when the supermarket is round the corner.

But put me in a life or death situation, in a field full of deer in the wilderness somewhere and bambi is going down.

If it's tasty it's tasty. There are somethings you should sacrifice for a longer and more healthly life. In my opinion meat is not one of them. I've read enough on the subject to make the desison that the perceived benefits don't outweigh for me the drawbacks.

I'll one up you.

I have no problem going out and hunting and killing people, cleaning, cooking, and eating them.

And feeding them to the neighbours.

If it's tasty it's tasty. There are some people that you should sacrifice for a happier life full of delicious human meats.

Basically my biggest issue in eating people is the police. It's a lot of work to not get caught. But I mean it's not nearly as hard as they make it out to be on CSI.

[Daffy Duck]

Consciousness is like herpes. Once you get it, you can't get rid of it. How do you go back to a state of ignorance? How do you intentionally forget that you're responsible for yourself?

So if anyone is ever trying to give you consciousness, tell them to go ♥♥♥♥♥ off!

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

Consciousness is like herpes. Once you get it, you can't get rid of it. So if anyone is ever trying to give you consciousness, tell them to go ♥♥♥♥♥ off!

Can you really *give* someone consciousness?

Isn't that like God's job or something?

Or the universe or whatever?

[Daffy Duck]

They can try to wake you up.

When you say it is God's job or the Universe's job, I start to wonder... "Wait, aren't I part of the Universe?"

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

They can try to wake you up.

When you say it is God's job or the Universe's job, I start to wonder... "Wait, aren't I part of the Universe?"

I don't think it is the universe's job. I'm just asking since lots of people think that.

[Mounds]

Originally Posted by yossarian

I'll one up you.

I have no problem going out and hunting and killing people, cleaning, cooking, and eating them.

And feeding them to the neighbours.

If it's tasty it's tasty. There are some people that you should sacrifice for a happier life full of delicious human meats.

Basically my biggest issue in eating people is the police. It's a lot of work to not get caught. But I mean it's not nearly as hard as they make it out to be on CSI.

Hey! Look over there! A post created entirely for shock value!

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by Mounds

Hey! Look over there! A post created entirely for shock value!

Why would you say that?

You're really assuming a lot.

[yossarian]

If we want to be conscious of the things we kill we need to add humans to that mix.

Personally I eat meat all the time. I just had a salami sandwich. And I don't see why I should refrain from eating people either. Humans are just another kind of animal.

The only thing that stops me from eating lots of human meat is the police. They make it a real hassle.

I don't kill people very often, mainly only when it's legal such as by paying taxes. Paying tax is the easiest way to get blood on your hands.

Anyway this arbitrary respect for human life makes no sense to me. What is so special about people?

Death is really not that bad. They just go to the spirit realm and get to be with Jesus or whoever.

[Mounds]

Just the overall tone of the post. It almost sounded comical. The only thing stopping you from cannibalism is the cops? That would be a good reason not to practice cannibalism in Canada. Why not hit a country where it's not so frowned upon and try it out?
As for myself, I don't have any particular interest in eating my own species. I'm actually a bit picky with my food, although I've eaten insects on many occasions.

-Tim

[Mounds]

Originally Posted by yossarian

I
Death is really not that bad. They just go to the spirit realm and get to be with Jesus or whoever.

Out of that whole post, this is the only part where I was like, "WHAT!?!". After reading what you just put down, I would have expected that you'd say we just rot in the ground. You really think we move on in a spiritual form?

[James81]

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

Consciousness is like herpes.

That one's going in the sig for a while.

[Daffy Duck]

Yes!!!

[Mounds]

I thought Yoss liked conflict Where did he go?

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by Mounds

Just the overall tone of the post. It almost sounded comical. The only thing stopping you from cannibalism is the cops? That would be a good reason not to practice cannibalism in Canada. Why not hit a country where it's not so frowned upon and try it out?
As for myself, I don't have any particular interest in eating my own species. I'm actually a bit picky with my food, although I've eaten insects on many occasions.

-Tim

I will some day. I imagine I can eat an African child or something that no one will miss.

And just like the animals I eat, I'd want to kill him or her humanely.