Go Hunting (Blog)

[Piercetheveil]

Originally Posted by SheldonCooper

This is a lame argument. For the same matte, vegetarians should all become farmers. Sounds practical. Imagine Steve not working in his website and instead we all become farmers. Great stuff.

I work. My job gives me money to pay for meat. I like meat. I eat it. The financial system is wonderful because not everyone has to be a farmer. So in practice I do not need to 'hunt' for my food. Which means I can actually give to the world something in which I am good for, unlike hunting. I think same should go to Steve Pavlina , blogger extraordinary, he does not just own a farm and uses it to survive, he has a website from which he receives money and he uses that money to buy himself those vegetables, the unnatural supplements, his polluting cars and his polluting computers. Or how about this: We forbid surgeries. Do you agree with surgeries? Oh well, then you must become a surgeon and see how that goes. If you squick then you must disagree with surgeries.


Overall the blog is the usual fallacy. Eating animals = bad, eating vegetables = good. Because for some reason vegetables are one standard lower than animals. Perhaps it is because they don't suffer out lood so we would be able to escape for the guilt that eating them would produce. It seems that it is all about the guilt and not that much about the actual ecologic impact. So for some reason, Steve thinks that people didn't know that animals they eat suffer and that's the reason they don't it them.

Well, I think that death is an inevitable part of my existance. If I am alive, other HUMANS will die. And so will animals and so will plants. I think that overall any guilt because of it would be useless because at the end there is nothing to prevent it. So perhaps use the energy for something more productive than feeling guilt.

It is funny when you think that the only difference is where the line is drawn. For some reason, death of vegetables is fair play, but death of animals isn't. But let me go slippery slope: What about making vegetables not fair play? We can eat humans instead. Every day a lot of humans die, and instead of ecologically disposing them we store them for years and even centuries and let them rot with no benefit. If we ate humans, we would eat a good huge deal of less vegetables and animals. So it is in fact, the ecologically optimal approach.

But of course, I don't have any plans for becoming a canibal , and I guess many of you guys don't. Be it for religious reasons or for that just plain burned yiuck feeling many people - including me- have for the idea. Yet it was the approach used by ancient men. So we have a whole society, ( including meat eaters AND vegetarians), not willing to change their diets to a more eco-friendly one due to irrational reasons and also their own preferences. How absurd of them, that's outrageous!

Jeez! A bit extreme yes? I believe the article stated once a year not quiting jobs.

I think it is a great idea. I practice it. I felt zero slam toward meat eaters. If you can not read the next few statements without wincing you prolly should question your eating of meat:

Your protein needs to have the following criteria:
1. It needs a face.
2. It needs a soul.
3. You need to kill it and bring its essence into your body.
4. Really.
Robb Wolf, The Paleo Solution

The we go about many things in mass produced society leads to places we won't like once we get there. There is great value in checking congruency.

(An the above is a bit dramatic with the soul and all but the point is pretty damn good)

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by Piercetheveil

Jeez! A bit extreme yes? I believe the article stated once a year not quiting jobs.

I think it is a great idea. I practice it. I felt zero slam toward meat eaters. If you can not read the next few statements without wincing you prolly should question your eating of meat:



The we go about many things in mass produced society leads to places we won't like once we get there. There is great value in checking congruency.

(An the above is a bit dramatic with the soul and all but the point is pretty damn good)

[Mounds]

I see a potential flaw here...

I would have zero problem with killing an animal for food. There, I said it. What I would have a problem with is going into the woods as an inexperienced hunter and attempting to bring down my own animal. I despise guns and I've never even shot one. So you can imagine what my aim is like.
I've shot compound bows but once again, my aim kinda sucks. On top of that, you need a certain weight to legally shoot a deer, otherwise it probably wouldn't be a kill shot. I could just see myself in my tree stand, struggling to pull back the draw string and nailing the deer in the leg. It limps away while I'm thinking to myself, "Well... at least I tried". Go me! I'd rather pay someone to do the job right and end the suffering quickly rather than me tromping through the woods as an inexperienced jackass, wounding animals in an effort to prove a point.

-Tim

[Daffy Duck]

I don't see the need to get involved with everything we consume or use. I don't make furniture, but I use it. I don't make televisions, but I use them. Likewise, I might not be growing vegetables, but that won't stop me from eating them.

I don't see this as inconsistent with my values. That's silly, to me.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by Mounds

I see a potential flaw here...

I would have zero problem with killing an animal for food. There, I said it. What I would have a problem with is going into the woods as an inexperienced hunter and attempting to bring down my own animal. I despise guns and I've never even shot one. So you can imagine what my aim is like.

Yeah, there are tons of stories of guys accidentally shooting their son/brother/friend/wife on hunting trips. Alcohol + inexperienced hunters = bad.

My sister's father in law, though, bow hunts. The fact that he is heavily overweight doesn't seem to matter. Well he's heavily overweight but has massive arms. I once watched a video on how to skin an armadillo at his house while my older sister and her now-husband made out in the back of the house.

Apparently you're supposed to trap armadillos and feed them "clean" food for a few days before you eat them because they are carrion eaters, and can contract a form of leprosy that is contagious to humans.

There's a useless jeopardy fact to stick into your brain.

[WarrenG]

Steve,

Weirdly, I had this exact conversation a few hours ago. We're disconnected from the consequences of our actions, we don't see it so it doesn't exist. Probably the same reason people download any music they want but would never steal a CD from a shop. Food is one good example, but also stuff. For most of the stuff we take for granted in out lifestyle, lots of people are living ♥♥♥♥♥♥ lifestyles to provide it. An illusion of abundance maybe.

But I disagree with the poster above who said people don't care. They would if they knew the consequences of their actions, but they don't because they're disconnected from them. Or they'd care more. If you had to cut down a tree and carve the wood when you wanted a new coffee table, you'd probably have it for a long time. You wouldn't throw it out when you get 'bored' of it. I bet you don't waste the food you grow either. Same thing.

'Going hunting' is the right move I think. But visiting the factory isn't enough - you should get a job there.

Originally Posted by russianrocket

or the 7 Chinese miners that die every day. I wonder what the world would be like if everyone knew where everything came from.

The ipad thing is an upsetting one. I ask people (60% teasing) if they know that people committed suicide, and got disappointing actions. Some said they don't care, one guy was like "If conditions are so bad, why don't they just leave, or get another job? They are choosing to work there." What I didn't hear was "Really? Damn, didn't know that. I'm going to look into this and if you're right, it might affect my future purchasing decisions!"

Russian Rocket, you seem to know a little about this - where does one go to get a better knowledge of the life of products? I really want to build a strong awareness of the lifespan of material goods, from mine to consumer, and all the consequences in between. I started a site to collate what I learn/find and keep it all in one place, I've got some stuff but I need more information.

Are you just getting this from news or do you have sharper sources? I've found a couple of liberal sites that are good places to start, but I want more. If you know of any good sites, books, sources - anything, link me up! That goes for anyone else reading this too!

[Savage]

I don't get the impression that Sheldon actually read the article. Seems like he's reacting to an old chip on his shoulder about veganism in general -- and a lot of projection -- but not about what I actually wrote in this particular piece.

That happens a lot. Blog posts are often skimmed, not read. Then people react to their own stuff that the post reminds them of.

[Savage]

Originally Posted by Mounds

I see a potential flaw here...

I would have zero problem with killing an animal for food. There, I said it. What I would have a problem with is going into the woods as an inexperienced hunter and attempting to bring down my own animal. I despise guns and I've never even shot one. So you can imagine what my aim is like.
I've shot compound bows but once again, my aim kinda sucks. On top of that, you need a certain weight to legally shoot a deer, otherwise it probably wouldn't be a kill shot. I could just see myself in my tree stand, struggling to pull back the draw string and nailing the deer in the leg. It limps away while I'm thinking to myself, "Well... at least I tried". Go me! I'd rather pay someone to do the job right and end the suffering quickly rather than me tromping through the woods as an inexperienced jackass, wounding animals in an effort to prove a point.

-Tim

So get a rabbit or a chicken and snap its neck.

[MidasGirl]

Originally Posted by Mounds

I see a potential flaw here...

I would have zero problem with killing an animal for food. There, I said it. What I would have a problem with is going into the woods as an inexperienced hunter and attempting to bring down my own animal. I despise guns and I've never even shot one. So you can imagine what my aim is like.
I've shot compound bows but once again, my aim kinda sucks. On top of that, you need a certain weight to legally shoot a deer, otherwise it probably wouldn't be a kill shot. I could just see myself in my tree stand, struggling to pull back the draw string and nailing the deer in the leg. It limps away while I'm thinking to myself, "Well... at least I tried". Go me! I'd rather pay someone to do the job right and end the suffering quickly rather than me tromping through the woods as an inexperienced jackass, wounding animals in an effort to prove a point.

-Tim

Maybe if you can't kill it yourself you can accompany a hunter, or two, on their hunting trips. Ha! No excuses.

[Mounds]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

So get a rabbit or a chicken and snap its neck.

Lots of Hutterite colonies around here and I know a couple that farms chickens Might be a worthwhile experience. Except I'd go choppy-choppy rather than hulk out and use my bare hands. I still would opt for the quickest and most painless solution.

Maybe if you can't kill it yourself you can accompany a hunter, or two, on their hunting trips. Ha! No excuses.

I don't personally know any hunters otherwise I'd be eating deer meat all the time

[MidasGirl]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

So get a rabbit or a chicken and snap its neck.

Most people don't even realize that snapping a chicken's neck doesn't even kill it immediately (I've done it btw). It takes a few minutes, and if you let it loose it will run around for those few minutes until it actually finally dies. (perhaps where the phrase "like a chicken with its head cut off" comes from).

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by MidasGirl

Most people don't even realize that snapping a chicken's neck doesn't even kill it immediately (I've done it btw). It takes a few minutes, and if you let it loose it will run around for those few minutes until it actually finally dies. (perhaps where the phrase "like a chicken with its head cut off" comes from).

Yep. Mike the headless chicken lived for 18 months after a botched hatchet job.

Personally I think everyone should be exposed to death - the food we eat, pets, loved ones. It's a reality that exists for us all, and the consequences of insulating yourself or your children from it is extremely painful to behold. I witnessed it a lot when I volunteered at Hospice after my Dad died. It's harder to accept the death of someone that you love if you do not accept the inevitability of death.

[Piercetheveil]

Congruency is more for me than it is to present to you.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

I don't get the impression that Sheldon actually read the article. Seems like he's reacting to an old chip on his shoulder about veganism in general -- and a lot of projection -- but not about what I actually wrote in this particular piece.

That happens a lot. Blog posts are often skimmed, not read. Then people react to their own stuff that the post reminds them of.

You seem to be investing a lot more time here lately, seems like even though you put a brick in your mailbox, you're interacting even more with your audience! This is the sort of thing I'd never expect you to even bother with.

[James81]

Originally Posted by VinceG

You seem to be investing a lot more time here lately, seems like even though you put a brick in your mailbox, you're interacting even more with your audience! This is the sort of thing I'd never expect you to even bother with.

I get the impression (based on the tone of his posts/blogs) that he's wrestling with a big decision in his personal life. I think he's hinted at it a few times, but this whole aversion to people contacting him, to me, smacks of someone who is about to make a major shift in their life. Granted, he's talked about it a little in his blogs (so it doesn't take a detective to come to that conclusion ), but I don't think that we, the forum/blog readers, truly get the *gravity* of whatever it is he is wrestling with.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

Yep. Mike the headless chicken lived for 18 months after a botched hatchet job.

Personally I think everyone should be exposed to death - the food we eat, pets, loved ones. It's a reality that exists for us all, and the consequences of insulating yourself or your children from it is extremely painful to behold. I witnessed it a lot when I volunteered at Hospice after my Dad died. It's harder to accept the death of someone that you love if you do not accept the inevitability of death.

Sure shows that a chicken isn't that smart, if it doesn't even need all of it's brain to survive the exact same way it was surviving before it got it's head chopped off.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by MidasGirl

Most people don't even realize that snapping a chicken's neck doesn't even kill it immediately (I've done it btw). It takes a few minutes, and if you let it loose it will run around for those few minutes until it actually finally dies. (perhaps where the phrase "like a chicken with its head cut off" comes from).

That IS where the phrase came about. The chicken IS dead, for all intents and purposes. Isn't the brain the center of life? Just like cutting off a lizards tail, will leave it squirming, it doesn't not me it's alive, in the way we use "living". It's just the left over nerve impulses.
Used to chase headless chickens around in Russia when I was young lol.

The term is used because people running around as if they have no brain, with no rhyme or reason to why they are doing things.

It was determined that the axe had missed the carotid artery and a clot had prevented Mike from bleeding to death. Although most of his head was severed, most of his brain stem and one ear was left on his body. Since basic functions (breathing, heart-rate, etc) as well as most of a chicken's reflex actions are controlled by the brain stem, Mike was able to remain quite healthy.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Sure shows that a chicken isn't that smart, if it doesn't even need all of it's brain to survive the exact same way it was surviving before it got it's head chopped off.

I have backyard chickens...they are actually pretty smart, but they are hella vicious. Lizards with feathers is what I call 'em. Blackie, my ginormously fat black chicken, always tries to bite me when I am giving them fresh water. What the frick?

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

I have backyard chickens...they are actually pretty smart, but they are hella vicious. Lizards with feathers is what I call 'em. Blackie, my ginormously fat black chicken, always tries to bite me when I am giving them fresh water. What the frick?

Wouldn't intelligence relay to the chicken to not bite the hand that feeds you?

[st33med]

I take my initial assumption back Steve. I understand now that you are trying to make people feel more congruent in themselves.

However, this is the part I disagree with: I do not devalue myself when I eat chicken, steak, etc. I just eat what I want. I disagree with hunting internally because it is me killing the animal, and I don't like that. I don't mind eating a fish at all, even the ones my father forced me to kill. I just feel bad when I have to kill something with my own hands.

Yes, that maybe not congruent in yours and my mind, but I am fine with that. I'd be more incongruent by going vegan and still desiring meat.
If there was some way to eliminate the desire for the taste of meat, do tell. I would like to experience a vegan lifestyle.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Wouldn't intelligence relay to the chicken to not bite the hand that feeds you?

They aren't as smart as the dog, that's for sure. I think that if I keeled over and died in the backyard, they would probably eat my corpse. That's how awesome chickens are.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

They aren't as smart as the dog, that's for sure. I think that if I keeled over and died in the backyard, they would probably eat my corpse. That's how awesome chickens are.

lol kinda like cats?

[shawnmihalik]

Originally Posted by st33med

Yes, that maybe not congruent in yours and my mind, but I am fine with that. I'd be more incongruent by going vegan and still desiring meat. If there was some way to eliminate the desire for the taste of meat, do tell. I would like to experience a vegan lifestyle.

Why not try a thirty day trial? I recently embarked on a thirty day trial of eating vegetarian, and when the trial was finished, I felt no need to go back to eating meat. I realized that it wasn't as appealing as it was before the trial, and eating meat isn't worth the benefits that I'd experienced without it.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by shawnmihalik

Why not try a thirty day trial? I recently embarked on a thirty day trial of eating vegetarian, and when the trial was finished, I felt no need to go back to eating meat. I realized that it wasn't as appealing as it was before the trial, and eating meat isn't worth the benefits that I'd experienced without it.

which benefits are those, after how long, and for how long?

[danas]

You know whats interesting is that it goes both ways.
I was never an animal person. Never had a pet. Couldnt care less when I saw a cute puppy. Never understood how girls are turned on by cute dogs walking down the street.

In August 2008 I went from being a meat eater to being a raw food vegan over night (thanks to you SP) and somehow since then I feel much closer to animals and nature.
As I am an artist, it is clear in my work. The past two years my main subject matters have been plants and animals. Completely unconsciously I seemed attracted to these.
I feel insync with the universe in a way I never was before.
I love animals now. I get totally excited by them.
Currently I have a major crush on a dog. I think its mutual

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by danas

You know whats interesting is that it goes both ways.
I was never an animal person. Never had a pet. Couldnt care less when I saw a cute puppy. Never understood how girls are turned on by cute dogs walking down the street.

In August 2008 I went from being a meat eater to being a raw food vegan over night (thanks to you SP) and somehow since then I feel much closer to animals and nature.
As I am an artist, it is clear in my work. The past two years my main subject matters have been plants and animals. Completely unconsciously I seemed attracted to these.
I feel insync with the universe in a way I never was before.
I love animals now. I get totally excited by them.
Currently I have a major crush on a dog. I think its mutual

Choosing to become a raw food vegan over night shows that your views on animals were VERY conscious, and could easily attract what you are talking about. Before you became one, you obviously didn't care much about animals, but then you started caring about animals and thus became a vegan. The thing is, you can still be exactly the way you are, with out becoming a vegan.
So it doesn't really go both ways, as it goes what ever way you CHOOSE it to go.

[shawnmihalik]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

which benefits are those, after how long, and for how long?

It took a little over a week for me to begin noticing benefits. Ever since I switched to a vegetarian diet, I've been sleeping better, I've had more energy, I've been thinking clearer and have been more productive, and I even had my first lucid dream. Not to mention the fact that I've become a more creative cook.

[danas]

Originally Posted by ssandra

It sucks to know these things and yet not do anything about them yet.

I know for a fact that I couldn't kill an animal. I get tears in my eyes now whenever I buy meat and see a complete chicken (without features) and the chicken guy cuts of it's head (with scissors yes...).

And yet I still eat meat.

I don't even particular like it. I could do without, except for the fact (or lazy excuse?) that I don't know how to cook healthy vegetarian... I'd also miss out on a lot of meat that I do like, such as Taco's al Pastor.

Something to think about, that's for sure.

I smell a 30 day trial coming up here....

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by shawnmihalik

It took a little over a week for me to begin noticing benefits. Ever since I switched to a vegetarian diet, I've been sleeping better, I've had more energy, I've been thinking clearer and have been more productive, and I even had my first lucid dream. Not to mention the fact that I've become a more creative cook.

See but this isn't everyone's experience, so I don't think it's all that good to generalize your experience to everyone's.

I was a vegetarian for 6 months and a full on vegan for 6 months. I did great on the vegetarian diet initially, but after about 3-4 months my b12 levels were shot.

That's when I found out that I had pernicious anemia. It was nutritionally dangerous for me to be a vegan.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by shawnmihalik

It took a little over a week for me to begin noticing benefits. Ever since I switched to a vegetarian diet, I've been sleeping better, I've had more energy, I've been thinking clearer and have been more productive, and I even had my first lucid dream. Not to mention the fact that I've become a more creative cook.

No chance that it was the kind of meat and amount of meat that was causing all the things that you are talking about? Effects on the body over the course of a few weeks or few months do not show whether something is good or bad for you. It takes a short time for instant effects to happen, but a long time for REAL effects to happen. Just like if you stop smoking cigarettes and you start feeling like crap, it doesn't mean cigarettes are good for you.