Go Hunting (Blog)

[Savage]

Originally Posted by ssandra

I'm pretty sure that anything I can come up with is worse then you could ever do... So I guess it is my non-maso side that is curious about this

Well I have no idea since I just picked two random nouns.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Well I have no idea since I just picked two random nouns.

You're mean!

[Savage]

Originally Posted by ssandra

You're mean!

Would you prefer a paperclip and ice?
Sandpaper and a bicycle pump?
A cigar and a pancake?

[st33med]

Originally Posted by ssandra

What I'm wondering about is why you see this as negative motivation?

Getting in touch with your integrity and living your life according to your own values (not Steve's) seems positive motivation to me...?

I mean... I'm not blaming you for not being Vegan or not hunting. I'm just wondering where the negativity comes in, in your perception?

By using animal cruelty or hunting animals is a negative motivation for me.

If I do that right now, then my desires for meat will conflict with my motivation. I'm not tired of meat's texture or flavor.

That being said, I don't want to shoot an animal. Even killing and gutting a fish sickens me.

[Cochonette]

Chicken does not equal coward, coward does not equal chicken. That's like saying someone who does something cruel is uncivilized when it's civilization that causes the majority of human world devastation. Humans can be cowards just as much as chickens can, and I'm sure there are brave chickens, too.

[Savage]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

Chicken does not equal coward, coward does not equal chicken. That's like saying someone who does something cruel is uncivilized when it's civilization that causes the majority of human world devastation. Humans can be cowards just as much as chickens can, and I'm sure there are brave chickens, too.

I was being ironical.

[st33med]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

Humans can be cowards just as much as chickens can, and I'm sure there are brave chickens, too.

[Piercetheveil]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

I was being ironical.

Goodwill hunting for the win.

[Savage]

Originally Posted by Piercetheveil

Goodwill hunting for the win.

Wow... kudos to you for getting the reference. Hot damn!

[Zach M]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

I'm sure there are brave chickens, too.

Yes, the cocky ones.

[James81]

This is how I grow up, brotha.

Hunting, when I was a kid, was bigger than Christmas. And I used to go fishing all the time (and would love to get back to it). I enjoy hunting too, but mostly I just enjoy the experience of sitting out in the woods and getting back to nature a bit and be still and quiet with my own thoughts (something I would encourage everybody to do actually ).

As far as killing the deer, yeah, I don't mind doing it. Legally, I could kill up to 7 deer a year if I hunted all season, but I've discovered that that isn't really congruent with me (in terms of what I eat that is). One a year is plenty to satisfy my taste for Venison. So, yeah, I'll usually kill one every year because I like Deer Jerky, Deer Bologna, and Deer Roast. Wayyyy better for you than beef, and I would argue that it's every bit as tasty.

The rest of the year my dad puts up a feeder and feeds the deer at his house. We get them to almost come up and eat out of our hands sometimes. And the rule is nobody shoots one under the feeder. The ones around his house are his pets almost.

Anyway, I'm patiently waiting for an article where you talk about modern day slavery. And you target pet owners. Because if you can call factory processed meat "nazi-ism," then one can make the arguement that owning a pet is akin to slavery.

[Savage]

Originally Posted by James81

Anyway, I'm patiently waiting for an article where you talk about modern day slavery.

Been practicing that for 9 months now and have written about it already. What more would you like to know about it? Are you looking for a slave?

I don't have pets, so if you want an article for pet owners, you'll have to seek it elsewhere.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Been practicing that for 9 months now and have written about it already. What more would you like to know about it? Are you looking for a slave?

I don't have pets, so if you want an article for pet owners, you'll have to seek it elsewhere.

I thought I would toss the idea out there that owning a pet is a bit like slavery. Because the same crew that cheered you on about the Modern Day Nazi article, would *probably* vehemently rail against the idea that owning a pet is a lot like being a slave owner. If there's one thing I've learned about the moral vegan crowd, is that they generally like their pets (dogs, cats, etc.).

Which, to me, fits a bit with the message of this particular article in terms of congruency.

[Cochonette]

Originally Posted by James81

I thought I would toss the idea out there that owning a pet is a bit like slavery. Because the same crew that cheered you on about the Modern Day Nazi article, would *probably* vehemently rail against the idea that owning a pet is a lot like being a slave owner. If there's one thing I've learned about the moral vegan crowd, is that they generally like their pets (dogs, cats, etc.).

Which, to me, fits a bit with the message of this particular article in terms of congruency.

Um, no, it doesn't. Pet OWNERSHIP is like slave ownership. Animal ADOPTION is like child adoption, and that's what most vegan pet "ownership" is like. The more intellectual/activist-y vegans will probably speak of "animal companions," not the "pets" they "own." Of course, there's animal abuse just like child abuse as well. But farming animals is a lot more like slavery, and so you would be the incongruent one if you want to throw in the slavery comparison. That is, unless you fully support slavery.

[Piercetheveil]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Wow... kudos to you for getting the reference. Hot damn!

I do not want Kudos. I want a friggin cheese cake!

One helluva movie. The bar scene where he goes off on Mr Pony Tail guy is worth watching the entire movie for.

Now about that cheese cake...

[James81]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

Um, no, it doesn't. Pet OWNERSHIP is like slave ownership. Animal ADOPTION is like child adoption, and that's what most vegan pet "ownership" is like. The more intellectual/activist-y vegans will probably speak of "animal companions," not the "pets" they "own." Of course, there's animal abuse just like child abuse as well. But farming animals is a lot more like slavery, and so you would be the incongruent one if you want to throw in the slavery comparison.

No, farming animals isn't more like slavery. Slave owners weren't growing their slaves to eat them (that would've been cannibalism). Slavery was about taking free human beings and forcing them into a lifestyle that wasn't natural for them. Kind of like what we do with animals.

And did you really just make a distinction between ownership and adoption? I found that humorous.

[Piercetheveil]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

Um, no, it doesn't. Pet OWNERSHIP is like slave ownership. Animal ADOPTION is like child adoption, and that's what most vegan pet "ownership" is like. The more intellectual/activist-y vegans will probably speak of "animal companions," not the "pets" they "own." Of course, there's animal abuse just like child abuse as well. But farming animals is a lot more like slavery, and so you would be the incongruent one if you want to throw in the slavery comparison. That is, unless you fully support slavery.

My simile/metaphor is closer than yours! Oh, wait...

[st33med]

Originally Posted by Piercetheveil

I do not want Kudos. I want a friggin cheese cake!

One helluva movie. The bar scene where he goes off on Mr Pony Tail guy is worth watching the entire movie for.

Now about that cheese cake...

I had Kudos once. They didn't taste that good. :\

[Zach M]

Originally Posted by Piercetheveil

My simile/metaphor is closer than yours! Oh, wait...

A simile is like a metaphor.
The simile is a metaphor for all things that are compared to other things.

[Savage]

A dog is pretty much a cat that I'm not allergic to.

[cacheborn]

Originally Posted by Piercetheveil

One helluva movie. The bar scene where he goes off on Mr Pony Tail guy is worth watching the entire movie for.

That's my favorite scene, too. Over-priced education!

[Skelly]

Oh dear, did you really have to write this ... no wait, why did I really have to read it?

This topic has been eating away at me for a long time already ... 'scuse the pun.

There is no right or wrong of whether to eat meat or not and to me people who go on about that miss the point completely.
It's about being congruent, living true to yourself, being authentic.

I am VERY aware that I am totally incongruent every time I eat meat. For years I can't eat something like chicken wings, it's just too much like the animal still. Roast chicken is totally out of the question. With a steak I don't see the animal per se, even less in processed meat.

And THAT is incongruent, not the fact that I actually eat it. It's me knowing and being aware that I'm doing something I actually don't want to do, which is kill an animal and consume it. And making sure I have less chance of being reminded of what I'm doing. I'm living a lie and so far choose to live with it. On top of it I'm very aware of potential consequences to the vehicle I move around in.

Reasons why I don't stop is the 'ole laziness and ignorance about the alternatives.

Damn you Steve (with eternal love and gratitude) for giving my true self ammunition

[aelle]

Originally Posted by James81

No, farming animals isn't more like slavery. Slave owners weren't growing their slaves to eat them (that would've been cannibalism). Slavery was about taking free human beings and forcing them into a lifestyle that wasn't natural for them. Kind of like what we do with animals.

And did you really just make a distinction between ownership and adoption? I found that humorous.

What does nature have to do with slavery? Non consensual, exploitative, depriving of rights, sure, but "unnatural lifestyle"? What's a natural lifestyle for a human anyway?

Besides, domestic dogs have been removed from nature and selectively bred for over 15,000 years to be companions to humans. I don't really see how one could defend that a lifestyle removed from humans could be more natural for them.

[ericabiz]

Actually, this thought (what you wrote in your blog) came to me independently a few weeks ago. I eat meat and I feel congruent with killing animals for food. I used to fish often, and really enjoyed it. I'd be up for trying hunting of other animals. It helps a lot that when I eat, I give thanks to the animal(s) for giving their lives so that I can continue to live mine.

I encourage anyone who eats meat to "get closer" to the source of the meat. Visit farms; hang out with farmers; go hunting or fishing. It will open your eyes. I am quite happy to eat meat and I'm also happy to support local/organic farms wherever possible.

-Erica

[Iggs]

I've been a vegan thanks to Steepav's writings for four years now and a couple months.

A big challenge has been carrying the diet over to life in Germany, where meat is the flesh and bones of practically all meals. Plus there are many high-quality sources of meat, especially in comparison with America which seems to be lacking in actual butcher shops.

Because I constantly have to explain and defend veganism, I got to the point a few months ago where saying I'd eat it if I killed it myself became the standard reply.

Living here's created a curiosity around eating meat again, especially meat I raised myself, so I checked out a couple videos on Youtube of someone who invented this thing which makes it "humane" to kill a rabbit. I watched the video and got overcome with animalistic, sadistic emotions, which I actually enjoyed having. I allowed myself to have the experience without judging it.

Then last week I stayed with a family who had bunnies, and held one for a few minutes, and realized, damn, I could never actually do that.

I guess the main observation that I wanted to share was, there's definite Power-Over which accompanies ending the life of something and consuming it. At least that's the sense I got from watching the 'humane' snapping of the rabbit's neck. Sometimes this Power-Over can feel good, but it's possible to overcome it with feelings from one's heart.

That being said, I think I could eat eggs without a moral problem if I owned and tended to a couple hens. And I actually am leveraging 4 years of veganism as motivation to get my fowl in a row in order to get a chicken.

[Andrew Brunelle]

I remember the book "The Omnivore's Dilemma," where Michael Pollan actually goes out and kills a wild pig and then is shown how to skin it and whatever else they have to do to get meat off of it. Suffice it to say that it is not a pretty, nor easy process. We used to hunt and kill our own animals, but that was when our populations were much smaller and there was plenty of meat to go around. I think it would be a better system, to have to kill every piece of meat we eat. We would probably make the animal last longer, too, by consuming all of it, not just the parts we like.

Killing animals for food is not bad in itself, it is the way that we systematically exterminate them that is terrible. And since factory farms get huge subsidies from the government, meat has been plentiful and cheap for a long, long time. To buy an organically raised, pasture raised, healthy animal or piece of meat from that animal is much more expensive, and it should be, because it has much more nutrition than a factory-farmed animal.

I see your point, Steve. If we're not willing to kill these animals we eat ourselves, we are in some way not being authentic. But regardless, people will continue to eat meat coming from factory farms because it is easy and cheap. And it tastes pretty good. It doesn't compare to a healthy piece of meat, but if you've never had one, factory farmed food isn't so bad tasting.

I understand the whole philosophy of veganism, but I'm not sure I'm there yet. At least I'm doing my best to ensure my animals come from healthy sources, and not from a disgusting factory farm. And I don't eat much meat, just a couple times a week, so I don't crave it on a daily basis. It just tastes good to me, and why should I sacrifice taste and satiety because I don't want to go hunt down and kill the animal myself? I'd rather pay someone else to do it for me.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

I don't like deer. It tastes gamey. Generally all wild game meat has that weird aftertaste.

Now lamb, that has the worst aftertaste. I always say, it tastes like "farm."

I've hunted, and fished, and done all the things that kids who weren't raised in the big city do. I've also helped to raise cows and eaten them. I have backyard chickens, I eat their eggs. Those damn chickens eat better than I do with all the toddler leftovers. They eat ANYTHING. They would eat chicken, if I gave it to them. They are a little on the repulsive size. Lizards with feathers. But I'd rather eat their eggs than kill 'em.

I raised 3 roosters when I was in middle school and came home to my grandmother wringing their necks for the stew pot. While I agree it is important to be aware of the life cycle and honor the food that you eat, and I personally believe that hunting is a great skill to have (I'd rather be stuck in the wilderness with a hunter, just my personal experience).

I disagree with the assumption that if "you [sic] values and your choices are out of sync, it means you don’t value yourself."

It's called cognitive dissonance. It's been studied extensively in social psychology.

And having a pet is slavery - for the frikkin pet owner. LMAO.

[NSS]

Unbelievable, I just realized I can't even gut a fish without feeling squeamish.

Excuse me, I need to go kick a few kittens to feel more manly.

[SheldonCooper]

This is a lame argument. For the same matte, vegetarians should all become farmers. Sounds practical. Imagine Steve not working in his website and instead we all become farmers. Great stuff.

I work. My job gives me money to pay for meat. I like meat. I eat it. The financial system is wonderful because not everyone has to be a farmer. So in practice I do not need to 'hunt' for my food. Which means I can actually give to the world something in which I am good for, unlike hunting. I think same should go to Steve Pavlina , blogger extraordinary, he does not just own a farm and uses it to survive, he has a website from which he receives money and he uses that money to buy himself those vegetables, the unnatural supplements, his polluting cars and his polluting computers. Or how about this: We forbid surgeries. Do you agree with surgeries? Oh well, then you must become a surgeon and see how that goes. If you squick then you must disagree with surgeries.


Overall the blog is the usual fallacy. Eating animals = bad, eating vegetables = good. Because for some reason vegetables are one standard lower than animals. Perhaps it is because they don't suffer out lood so we would be able to escape for the guilt that eating them would produce. It seems that it is all about the guilt and not that much about the actual ecologic impact. So for some reason, Steve thinks that people didn't know that animals they eat suffer and that's the reason they don't it them.

Well, I think that death is an inevitable part of my existance. If I am alive, other HUMANS will die. And so will animals and so will plants. I think that overall any guilt because of it would be useless because at the end there is nothing to prevent it. So perhaps use the energy for something more productive than feeling guilt.

It is funny when you think that the only difference is where the line is drawn. For some reason, death of vegetables is fair play, but death of animals isn't. But let me go slippery slope: What about making vegetables not fair play? We can eat humans instead. Every day a lot of humans die, and instead of ecologically disposing them we store them for years and even centuries and let them rot with no benefit. If we ate humans, we would eat a good huge deal of less vegetables and animals. So it is in fact, the ecologically optimal approach.

But of course, I don't have any plans for becoming a canibal , and I guess many of you guys don't. Be it for religious reasons or for that just plain burned yiuck feeling many people - including me- have for the idea. Yet it was the approach used by ancient men. So we have a whole society, ( including meat eaters AND vegetarians), not willing to change their diets to a more eco-friendly one due to irrational reasons and also their own preferences. How absurd of them, that's outrageous!

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

I'd also like to mention that in the blog Steve makes reference to the fact that he prefers to eat the vegetables from his garden that "self renew" (do you mean that these plants reseed? or you just prune the plants and eat the clippings? I garden a lot and have never heard this term used.)

Generally those plants that you harvest - root vegetables, some cruciferous vegetables like broccoli, cauliflower, even fennel - have a limited lifespan. So if you don't harvet those plants, they just die, or if they get too bug eaten I end up throwing them on the compost....

But I will say that I extend the responsibility of food production to the individual on several levels, and I am a big supporter and activist for Foor Not Lawns International.

The industrialization of our food production is one of the big sources of nutritional ills, and a big contributer to the inequalities of food distribution on a global scale. And also one of the biggest sources of pollution in the US.