Homosexuality

[dulaney0330]

Originally Posted by Angela

I believe it's possible to notice that your behavior doesn't work well, and that if you make your feelings wrong, you are generating bad feelings and probably shame.

And I believe it is possible to judge a behavior and not the person, and if you judge something you see as a behavior but the person sees as an inherent aspect of their being, especially a child's or young person's, who has access to less resource for not making your judgement mean anything about themselves, then the experience of that child or young person is an experience of being judged.

And when that judgement is that there's something wrong or bad -- yes, that shames the child.

Do you view negative behavior as wrong or bad? Or do you view it as unhealthy/healthy? If a child hits another child, is it wrong or bad? Do you view physical actions differently than feelings and thoughts?

[ZephyrusX]

Well, if you want to argue semantics, homosexuality could be hurting the person...depression, anxiety, low self-esteem and it could emotionally hurt family members/friends.

So, in reality, homosexuality can hurt the person as well as others.

What world are you living in? I'm homosexual and I am neither depressed or anxious and my self-esteem is generally high. If another person is bothered by my sexual orientation, that is their own problem. I'm not going to feel bad for them just because they cannot get over their own prejudices and those prejudices broadcasted by society. I'm certainly not going to feel bad about my self because of what someone else thinks. If homosexuality is the 'cause' of this 'hurt' that you perceive, then every homosexual would be 'hurt'. This isn't the case, and so, there is obviously more factors at play here.

Just out of curiosity, you brought up child up bringing and psychology. What sort of psychological and family factors do you think contribute to homosexuality?

[dulaney0330]

Originally Posted by ssandra

If someone is born with a disability, like having only one leg, or malformed face... large parts of society won't approve that, and will try to shame this person.

Does that mean that society is right? That someone with a malformed face should be ashamed of themselves?

Then you have the fact that different societies think in different ways. In the Netherlands being gay would be as weird as being black. (in other words, not the majority, but not weird either).

So there wouldn't be a society induced shame. Would that mean that in the Netherlands being homosexual would be ok and normal, but in the US it wouldn't?

Society certainly says many things. Well, it depends on who you ask. Like I said in my earlier post, subjectivity can run rampant within a society and culture. Like many of us know, a handshake in the middle east is rude but not in the US. Wearing white to a wedding in America is custom but in India its only fitting for a funeral.

In the Netherlands, I would assume homosexuality is viewed as ok and normal. Most of Europe is pretty relaxed with many things, including drinking and marijuana, so it does not surprise me that they are more approving of homosexuality.

Although, I believe morals must be objective and not subject to societal rules.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

What world are you living in? I'm homosexual and I am neither depressed or anxious and my self-esteem is generally high. If another person is bothered by my sexual orientation, that is their own problem. I'm not going to feel bad for them just because they cannot get over their own prejudices and those prejudices broadcasted by society. I'm certainly not going to feel bad about my self because of what someone else thinks. If homosexuality is the 'cause' of this 'hurt' that you perceive, then every homosexual would be 'hurt'. This isn't the case, and so, there is obviously more factors at play here.

Just out of curiosity, you brought up child up bringing and psychology. What sort of psychological and family factors do you think contribute to homosexuality?

It sounds a lot more like Dulaney is talking about the 'hurt' that the family would feel...only I percieve that to be feeling as though they are outcasted by the community because of their childs sexual orientation, and instead of saying "stuff you all if you are gonna behave this way" they choose to be afraid of being judged by their peers and see this as the fault of the child, that is bringing 'shame' upon the family. It's living in fear of how others might percieve them as a family unit. I could be wrong though...

Does this sound right Dulaney?

[ZephyrusX]

Originally Posted by elucidate

It sounds a lot more like Dulaney is talking about the 'hurt' that the family would feel...only I percieve that to be feeling as though they are outcasted by the community because of their childs sexual orientation, and instead of saying "stuff you all if you are gonna behave this way" they choose to be afraid of being judged by their peers and see this as the fault of the child. It's living in fear of how others might percieve them as a family unit.

Does this sound right Dulaney?

That seems like twisted thinking. Though I guess I can understand it. But why blame the child for the fact that other people are choosing to outcast you? More importantly, if you are just going to give into pressure, how do you expect to live in a future environment that is any different? You are just as bad as the people who promote an unfriendly environment towards homosexuals in that case. It is self-defeating behaviour.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

That seems like twisted thinking. Though I guess I can understand it. But why blame the child for the fact that other people are choosing to outcast you? More importantly, if you are just going to give into pressure, how do you expect to live in a future environment that is any different? You are just as bad as the people who promote an unfriendly environment towards homosexuals in that case. It is self-defeating behaviour.

I agree.

I didn't say it made any sense to me, just that I recognise this way of thinking.

I don't think it is blaming the individual child as such, but blaming the "defect" of their sexuality, which is a part of the child, and will in all likelihood be taken by the young person to mean that it is their fault, even if that isn't the intention of the parents.

It makes even less sense that the parents would worry more about what other people think of them than they would care for the happiness and acceptance of their own child.

I was engaged to a scotsman a while ago, and his parents reaction when he told them he had a mental illness (Bipolar) was "Oh thank god...we thought you were Gay"! It says a LOT!

[dulaney0330]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

What world are you living in? I'm homosexual and I am neither depressed or anxious and my self-esteem is generally high. If another person is bothered by my sexual orientation, that is their own problem. I'm not going to feel bad for them just because they cannot get over their own prejudices and those prejudices broadcasted by society. I'm certainly not going to feel bad about my self because of what someone else thinks. If homosexuality is the 'cause' of this 'hurt' that you perceive, then every homosexual would be 'hurt'. This isn't the case, and so, there is obviously more factors at play here.

Just out of curiosity, you brought up child up bringing and psychology. What sort of psychological and family factors do you think contribute to homosexuality?

Sigh. I did not make a blanket statement that every homosexual was depressed and had low self-esteem.

And no, I do not believe homosexuality is 100% caused by what I have described. Who can make such a guarantee? But, a large number of them are.

Can you say with a 100% guarantee that every case of homosexuality is from what you have experienced?

Hmmm...many things. Anything from molestation, mother desiring her child to be the opposite sex, father/son interactions, father/daughter interactions, biological and personality vulnerabilities. I firmly believe that the mother child bond is very important in how the child will feel about him or herself. Unspoken desires, expectations, thoughts, and feelings can be transfered onto the child. Robert Firestone often speaks on self-hate and how easily a child can take this on from the mother. Furthermore, how a mother feels about her sexuality can be mirrored onto the child. Although, I suspect that these factors would be brought to light in a therapuetic atmosphere, involving safety and trust, rather than friend to friend.

Such insight, awareness, and understanding can only be found through the desire of the individual. An individual may never understand the different factors involved since its highly complex, involving many years, and the limitations of our childhood can intefere with this process. It can be difficult to understand without the assistance of our parents, who must be willing to admit shameful or challenging thoughts and feelings.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

Do you view negative behavior as wrong or bad? Or do you view it as unhealthy/healthy? If a child hits another child, is it wrong or bad? Do you view physical actions differently than feelings and thoughts?

Are you now comparing homosexual behavior with one person hitting another, as you earlier compared homosexuality to pederasty and low self-esteem?

[Weena]

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

In the Netherlands, I would assume homosexuality is viewed as ok and normal. Most of Europe is pretty relaxed with many things, including drinking and marijuana, so it does not surprise me that they are more approving of homosexuality.

...oh...my...God...


ahem. Do you think American don't drink or smoke marijuana? BWAHAHAHA

sorry, I meant...BWAHAHAHA

[ZephyrusX]

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

Sigh. I did not make a blanket statement that every homosexual was depressed and had low self-esteem.
.

And in recognizing that fact, do you see homosexuality as a 'defect' or something that ought to be corrected and prevented through therapy?

How is homosexuality hurtful if it doesn't cause every gay person to be depressed and lacking in confidence?

[ZephyrusX]

Originally Posted by elucidate

I don't think it is blaming the individual child as such, but blaming the "defect" of their sexuality, which is a part of the child, and will in all likelihood be taken by the young person to mean that it is their fault, even if that isn't the intention of the parents.

I don't get the association between homosexuality and 'defectedness' . Especially when we live in a culture that is increasing using sex as a form of mutual pleasure and expression of love more so as an act of reproduction. Especially considering the fact that homosexuals can have children or rear children from previous relationships.

(BTW: I know that these aren't your opinions. I'm just sort of rambling in order to understand better...)

[dulaney0330]

Originally Posted by Weena

...oh...my...God...


ahem. Do you think American don't drink or smoke marijuana? BWAHAHAHA

sorry, I meant...BWAHAHAHA

Your post is very irritating and insulting. Sometimes, I have a habit of not always elaborating on my thoughts and I really should be going to bed. What I meant was Europe, I believe, legalizes drinking and smoking marijuana at an earlier age than the United States. My best friend was from Germany and many of her friends in their early teens frequently drank and smoked pot, even around their parents.

Like I said, its more relaxed and approved than in the United States.

[dulaney0330]

Originally Posted by Angela

Are you now comparing homosexual behavior with one person hitting another, as you earlier compared homosexuality to pederasty and low self-esteem?

No, I am thinking of Ssandra's post, #60.

I hope you answers my questions. I am trying to get an idea of how you view certain types of behaviors and with what words.

[Weena]

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

Your post is very irritating and insulting.

1) settle Saddam

2) I'm not the one who is irritating in this particular topic

3) You generalise again just because of your German friends. Dutch teenagers consume less pot than English teenagers, even though it is legal in Holland and illegal in England. Check the stats.

[Chris_1977]

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

Such insight, awareness, and understanding can only be found through the desire of the individual. An individual may never understand the different factors involved since its highly complex, involving many years, and the limitations of our childhood can intefere with this process.

Would a person who is not feeling badly about themselves even be interested in that? To me it seems that this kind of obsessive self-examination is more of a problem then a solution. With your definition of morality, we might need to call it "bad". Besides, how do we know that "insights" like this are even true? Psychoanalysis is a field where it seems that anything goes and next to nothing is provable. A person just living his/her life and going for what he/she likes is better off in my opinion. Of course, one can come up with likes that cause problems but then one just has to chose whether the likes of the person or avoiding the problems is more important. This is the process of taking a decision which seems much more productive than endless self-examination.

Morality seems a rather useless activity too. You say you want objective morality, but that is a creature that has never been seen on the face of the earth. In non-so-subtle cases cases moral judgments mostly agree, but in everyday life moral judgments are so varied that they are useless. Saying "homosexuality is bad" makes about as much sense to me as "homosexuality is yellow". What does it even mean? It seems to mean something like "I have decided to feel badly about homosexual behaviour" and that just seems useless. Why choose to feel bad if a person can choose to feel neutral as well? Whenever I hear some strong and emotionally laden opinion about a certain thing, I have come to expect to hear the opposite position be defended with just as much emotion within a week. This expectation seems to never fail. I have come to just call it "useless drama" and try to ignore it as well as I can. The problem is that morality seems an easily catchable disease and the lower emotional parts of the brain have a tendency to run wild with it, so avoidance is not always easy.

[dulaney0330]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

And in recognizing that fact, do you see homosexuality as a 'defect' or something that ought to be corrected and prevented through therapy?

How is homosexuality hurtful if it doesn't cause every gay person to be depressed and lacking in confidence?

Not sure if you saw this in my last post: Can you say with a 100% guarantee that every case of homosexuality is from what you have experienced?

Depression and low self-esteem are but a few of the factors involved here. Like I said in an earlier post: Anything from molestation, mother desiring her child to be the opposite sex, father/son interactions, father/daughter interactions, biological and personality vulnerabilities. I firmly believe that the mother child bond is very important in how the child will feel about him or herself. Unspoken desires, expectations, thoughts, and feelings can be transfered onto the child. Robert Firestone often speaks on self-hate and how easily a child can take this on from the mother. Furthermore, how a mother feels about her sexuality can be mirrored onto the child.

It's because of the above and more that homosexuality can be the result of something that has gone wrong. And for the record, not every homosexual who encountered the above is depressed or lacking in confidence. Although this does not negate that these experiences have impacted the individual and how the individual would eventually feel and behave.

[dulaney0330]

Originally Posted by Weena

1) settle Saddam

2) I'm not the one who is irritating in this particular topic

3) You generalise again just because of your German friends. Dutch teenagers consume less pot than English teenagers, even though it is legal in Holland and illegal in England. Check the stats.

Again, more insults.

While I do not take them personally, I understand it has more to do with the person attacking than the attacked.

My compassion goes out to you.

[dulaney0330]

Originally Posted by Chris_1977

Would a person who is not feeling badly about themselves even be interested in that? To me it seems that this kind of obsessive self-examination is more of a problem then a solution. With your definition of morality, we might need to call it "bad". Besides, how do we know that "insights" like this are even true? Psychoanalysis is a field where it seems that anything goes and next to nothing is provable. A person just living his/her life and going for what he/she likes is better off in my opinion. Of course, one can come up with likes that cause problems but then one just has to chose whether the likes of the person or avoiding the problems is more important. This is the process of taking a decision which seems much more productive than endless self-examination.

Morality seems a rather useless activity too. You say you want objective morality, but that is a creature that has never been seen on the face of the earth. In non-so-subtle cases cases moral judgments mostly agree, but in everyday life moral judgments are so varied that they are useless. Saying "homosexuality is bad" makes about as much sense to me as "homosexuality is yellow". What does it even mean? It seems to mean something like "I have decided to feel badly about homosexual behaviour" and that just seems useless. Why choose to feel bad if a person can choose to feel neutral as well? Whenever I hear some strong and emotionally laden opinion about a certain thing, I have come to expect to hear the opposite position be defended with just as much emotion within a week. This expectation seems to never fail. I have come to just call it "useless drama" and try to ignore it as well as I can. The problem is that morality seems an easily catchable disease and the lower emotional parts of the brain have a tendency to run wild with it, so avoidance is not always easy.

Right. I understand your thoughts and when it comes to homosexuality, you will find those with relative or absolute morals. As a Christian, I must side with the absolutes, although many people base their morals on what is relative (what is true for me may not be true for you).

Why not self-examination and then decision? It doesn't have to be endless

[Bubblez]

I think it's all a joke. If you're gay, you're gay and sure you can hide it, but you'll still know it's there. I don't see why being gay is so wrong. People should be allowed to be with whoever they please. It makes me sick that people try so hard to be something they're not so they can fit in.

[Weena]

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

Again, more insults.

While I do not take them personally, I understand it has more to do with the person attacking than the attacked.

My compassion goes out to you.

Where were the insults? Settle Saddam is a common expression meaning "calm down". Mentioning i was not irritating was not an insult, though it's true i was returning the compliment given all the negative things you sent the way of all homosexuals in the world. I do not feel like i need compassion whatsoever but thanks all the same. I will just put you on my ignore list now, nothing against your soul but your homophobic opinions are just not of value to me at this time and I'd rather not have to see them at all.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

I hope you answers my questions. I am trying to get an idea of how you view certain types of behaviors and with what words.

I'll pass. Let's just say that in the area of sex, my idea of morality that works well is more aligned with Steve's than with yours...

Today I see absolutely nothing wrong with having sex just for fun, as long as it’s done safely and consensually. I think those who feel that sex is wrong, dirty, or immoral are terribly repressed. I’ve never met a genuinely happy person that felt this way about sex. Perhaps if such people just got laid more often, they wouldn’t be so grumpy.

Prerequisites for Sex
What prerequisites do we actually need to engage in sex? A willing partner is really all that’s required. If you have a willing partner, you can have sex.

Serious rocket science here, eh?

Just to be clear, let’s assume your body and your partner’s body are physically capable of having sex as well.

All other rules, constraints, and requirements arise from social conditioning and are therefore unnecessary.
You don’t need to be married or in a committed relationship.
You don’t need to be dating.
You don’t need to be in love.
You don’t need an opposite-sex partner.
You don’t need to be exclusive with your partner.
Your partner doesn’t need to be exclusive with you.
You don’t need to be programmed in multiple techniques.
You don’t even need to have met the other person first.
All you need is consent.

... and leave it at that.

[Chris_1977]

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

Why not self-examination and then decision? It doesn't have to be endless

If the self-examination is in the realm of psychological causation, I am in favour of self-examination procedures provided they finish within a minute. After that, I would be inclined to say, it more likely than not has lost itself into the realm of idle speculation.

Besides, what is one to self-examine? In the case that a person feels bad about homosexuality, one could either self-examine the homosexuality or self-examine the bad feelings about it. This will lead to much different results. Actually, a decision is already being made in choosing the object of self-examination. The parent-child relation was mentioned earlier. I think in this relationship problems occur if parent and child have a different preference in choosing the object of examination. Examining aspects of the child that the child him/herself does not want to be examined seems like a form of violence to me. If the technique of empathic listening is applied, the examiner avoids putting his/her examination preferences in but instead allows the emotions of the examined person to lead the examination process, which seems to make more sense as it is less arbitrary.

Actually, this thread contains more than one example of examination-bias. Gay persons who feel good about their sexuality (a category that would include me) don't feel like examining their sexual nature. You, on the other hand, state your preference for absolute morals as a fact about yourself, implying that you are not going to self-examine this aspect. The fact is that as soon as we examine something, we have already chosen that it is something that we potentially want to devaluate in ourselves.

[ZephyrusX]

Not sure if you saw this in my last post: Can you say with a 100% guarantee that every case of homosexuality is from what you have experienced?

I did catch it, but I honestly don't see the relevancy in exploring the causes of homosexuality as I simply accept it as neutral status. I was more interested in flushing out your understanding of the issue by asking you what you think the causes of homosexuality are. I honestly don't know the causes of homosexuality. I see evidence that society has a large role in shaping the expression of homosexuality, but I feel that biology actually causes it as I've known from very early on that I liked other women.

Depression and low self-esteem are but a few of the factors involved here. Like I said in an earlier post: Anything from molestation, mother desiring her child to be the opposite sex, father/son interactions, father/daughter interactions, biological and personality vulnerabilities. I firmly believe that the mother child bond is very important in how the child will feel about him or herself. Unspoken desires, expectations, thoughts, and feelings can be transfered onto the child. Robert Firestone often speaks on self-hate and how easily a child can take this on from the mother. Furthermore, how a mother feels about her sexuality can be mirrored onto the child.

You seem to be operating from the premise that homosexuality is an indication of 'something' gone wrong in a parent-child relationship, but I can't relate to any of this. Especially the stuff you have said about mothers secretly having homosexual feelings them selves and 'passing' them on to their daughters . The stuff on 'father/daughter' interactions and 'mother/daughter' interactions seems suspect to me as there is no way to really know for certain and there is room for introducing twisted thinking into the patient not because of the homsexuality it self, but because of the way the doctor is handling the issue. More importantly, some of the stuff you have brought up can equally be problematic for heterosexual children so I don't really see your point.

If there is something abusive or dysfunctional going on within a parent-child relationship it should be corrected, but I don't believe for a moment that doing so would 'magically' alleviate homosexual feelings as I don't see the causal relationship between the two.

So, homosexuality in my experience hasn't led to lack of self-esteem, depression, anxiety, self-hate, poor relations with family or friends, lack of academic achievement etc. None of these things. So... keeping the 'causes' of homosexuality aside for a moment, what exactly is hurtful about homosexuality? How exactly is it 'something gone wrong'? I personally think that I am the exact opposite of 'something gone wrong'. I am a wonderful, complex and unique person, and my sexual orientation from my perspective, is a very minor (almost absent from my mind most of the time) attribute of who I am.

I'll ask the following question again as I think it might help me understand you better: should homosexuality be 'corrected' through therapy or 'prevented' through other means? Thanks for answering my questions BTW.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

Society certainly says many things. Well, it depends on who you ask. Like I said in my earlier post, subjectivity can run rampant within a society and culture. Like many of us know, a handshake in the middle east is rude but not in the US. Wearing white to a wedding in America is custom but in India its only fitting for a funeral.

In the Netherlands, I would assume homosexuality is viewed as ok and normal. Most of Europe is pretty relaxed with many things, including drinking and marijuana, so it does not surprise me that they are more approving of homosexuality.

Although, I believe morals must be objective and not subject to societal rules.

Dulaney, first I want to thank you for entering in this "debate" with me. I find it very interesting to talk to you about this, because we both have such opposite ideas.

I did read your other posts, but if it is ok with you, I want to mainly ask you some questions about this one...

What I am wondering about is that you said that homosexuality can be harmful for the person themselves and their environment. You then gave the example of them being depressed, having less self esteem etc.

When we talked about what the reason for that was you suggested that because society doesn't except them (US society), that might be the cause of those feelings of depression and anxiety etc.

I gave you the example of the Netherlands where indeed it is much easier being gay and society at large doesn't really care who people are dating (we once almost had a prime minister who was as gay as they get... he got killed but because of his political ideals (he was also an idiot ), not because he was gay).

So, in a different society being homosexual is accepted and not seen as wrong. Therefor feelings of depression and low self esteem are not related to being homosexual.

Do you still hold true that even in such a society being homosexual is harmful for both the person themselves and the people around them?

[Lifeisamazing]

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

I believe homosexuality is the result of something going wrong; imbalance whether biologically, emotionally, and parenting has the biggest influence. In addition, a person's unique personality traits will either offset this imbalance or add to it.

I believe conversion is rare simply because its difficult for human beings to change and habits are long-lasting.

I absolutely agree with this. It's like I had written it.

[Lifeisamazing]

Originally Posted by Mounds

This is always how I figured it was
If gay people themselves say "This is how it is", who am I to desperately grasp for something that makes it unnatural (environment, molestation, Satan)? Love is a beautiful thing, whether it is a man and a woman or two people of the same sex.

If an alcoholic tells you that he has no issues with drinking and that he has everything under control, you believe that too, right? This doesn't necessarily mean that it's right or normal. Everything starts with believing in something.

[stewartM]

Originally Posted by Lifeisamazing

I absolutely agree with this. It's like I had written it.

You are wrong as well

[stewartM]

Originally Posted by Lifeisamazing

If an alcoholic tells you that he has no issues with drinking and that he has everything under control, you believe that too, right? This doesn't necessarily mean that it's right or normal. Everything starts with believing in something.

Disgusting, it's entirely normal.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by Lifeisamazing

If an alcoholic tells you that he has no issues with drinking and that he has everything under control, you believe that too, right? This doesn't necessarily mean that it's right or normal. Everything starts with believing in something.

But an alcoholic hurts his liver by doing so. Depending on what kind of drunk he is, he can also hurt the people around him. For example if he drives while being drunk, he also puts others in danger.

Do you think that being a homosexual is putting yourself and others in danger?

[Lifeisamazing]

Originally Posted by ssandra

But an alcoholic hurts his liver by doing so. Depending on what kind of drunk he is, he can also hurt the people around him. For example if he drives while being drunk, he also puts others in danger.

Do you think that being a homosexual is putting yourself and others in danger?

A blind person may not put others at risk either but that doesn't mean it's normal, does it?

If all men in the world became gay, we would naturally seize to exist. Would it put anyone in danger? How about the whole species?