Homosexuality

[dulaney0330]

Originally Posted by Angela

I think the assumption is that you would consider that your homosexual child's sexuality is the result of something gone wrong or that it's like low self-esteem -- and regardless of how much you feel yourself to love him, a judgement like that is going to have an impact -- a really sh*tty-feeling one.

Sometimes, it is more about morals than feelings. While its important to consider one's own judgment and the feelings of others, one must draw the line, morally, and that is what is intended within Christianity.

All of us have behaviors and/or traits that can be shame or judgment inducing. But, it's more about what we do with those behavior/traits than just simple admittance.

[dulaney0330]

Originally Posted by ssandra

I also don't think that every behavior should be approved. Hitting people, hurting them physically or emotionally... all things that I think that children should learn to NOT do.

As long as it isn't hurting anyone, why do you think this behavior is unacceptable?

Are you saying that homosexuality is not hurting anyone?

[Mounds]

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

are you saying that homosexuality is not hurting anyone?

yes!

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

Are you saying that homosexuality is not hurting anyone?

I guess I was saying that.

Ok, first things first... how do you see homosexuality hurting anyone?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

Unlike most of the members on this forum, I do not believe every behavior expressed is in need of approval or agreement.

It's not a matter of approving of or agreeing with behavior. A young person's feelings of sexual attraction are not behavior, they're feelings. Declaring that that there's something wrong with that person's feelings is an excellent way to help them feel ashamed and wrong, to want to hide their feelings, and to encourage them to feel humiliated and anguished if those feelings are exposed -- as happened with tragic results with Tyler Clementi.

[dulaney0330]

Originally Posted by ssandra

I guess I was saying that.

Ok, first things first... how do you see homosexuality hurting anyone?

Well, if you want to argue semantics, homosexuality could be hurting the person...depression, anxiety, low self-esteem and it could emotionally hurt family members/friends.

So, in reality, homosexuality can hurt the person as well as others.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

Well, if you want to argue semantics, homosexuality could be hurting the person...depression, anxiety, low self-esteem and it could emotionally hurt family members/friends.

So, in reality, homosexuality can hurt the person as well as others.

No, dulaney, it's not the homosexuality that hurts the person, it's the thoughts and actions about homosexuality that hurt the person as well as others.

Like, dragging a kid behind a car till he's dead. Or filming him having sex as a prank. Or declaring that there's something wrong with her. Or believing that they should feel other than how they feel. Or beating him and hanging him up on a fence to die.

That's what hurts a person.

[st33med]

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

Well, if you want to argue semantics, homosexuality could be hurting the person...depression, anxiety, low self-esteem and it could emotionally hurt family members/friends.

So, in reality, homosexuality can hurt the person as well as others.

dulaney, people choose to be hurt by homosexual beliefs, but it is not directly hurting them. They choose to feel hurt because they believe homosexuality is a threat to them, to their way of life!

And how is a person depressed by being homosexual? I've seen plenty of people here who are happy and fulfilled because they follow what they are attracted to. It's other people who shame them and they in turn choose to feel depressed.

I really do hope that your child is straight as well! I don't see how they cannot express their own sexuality with shame on their choice running in the family.

[dulaney0330]

Originally Posted by Angela

It's not a matter of approving of or agreeing with behavior. A young person's feelings of sexual attraction are not behavior, they're feelings. Declaring that that there's something wrong with that person's feelings is an excellent way to help them feel ashamed and wrong, to want to hide their feelings, and to encourage them to feel humiliated and anguished if those feelings are exposed -- as happened with tragic results with Tyler Clementi.

I have to use an analogy here. If a young man declared he was sexually attracted to children, would this be acceptable? Of course, these are feelings that may lead to behaviors, but for right now they are just feelings.

There are several responses one can take:

"It's ok. These are your feelings! Accept them."
"Gasp! How disgusting! You should be ashamed of yourself!"
"Hmm..mm. Well, why don't you tell me more about that? How do you feel admitting that?

I like more of the third question since its non judgmental and seeking to understand. Sometimes, shame is not a bad thing. If a yell at my husband and curse at him, I feel ashamed of my behavior. I am more likely to repent and seek forgiveness when I am disgusted by what I have done.

It's about understanding the motives and origins of these feelings. If an origin or motive was linked to something gone wrong, why should we then encourage behaviors, not feelings, to continue?

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

Well, if you want to argue semantics, homosexuality could be hurting the person...depression, anxiety, low self-esteem and it could emotionally hurt family members/friends.

So, in reality, homosexuality can hurt the person as well as others.

But would it lead to all those things because they are homosexual, or would it lead to all those things because it is not accepted?

Do you think someone who feels they are gay and all their parents, classmates and family and friends think it is normal, would still have problems with depression, anxiety, low self-esteem etc?

[dulaney0330]

Originally Posted by Angela

No, dulaney, it's not the homosexuality that hurts the person, it's the thoughts and actions about homosexuality that hurt the person as well as others.

I thought the same thing about myself when I had depression. Does that negate the hurt of it?

Of course not.

[dulaney0330]

Originally Posted by ssandra

But would it lead to all those things because they are homosexual, or would it lead to all those things because it is not accepted?

Do you think someone who feels they are gay and all their parents, classmates and family and friends think it is normal, would still have problems with depression, anxiety, low self-esteem etc?

Many children feel shame for being different. Is this shame induced by society, ourselves, truth? If one wishes to assume it's 100% society, please feel free.

Societies will always have a set of morals, rules, normalities, etc. Every human being will feel different in some way when measuring him or herself according to a societal rule. But, do we blame the rule? Perhaps the rule that we blame another praises

[st33med]

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

I have to use an analogy here. If a young man declared he was sexually attracted to children, would this be acceptable? Of course, these are feelings that may lead to behaviors, but for right now they are just feelings.

There are several responses one can take:

"It's ok. These are your feelings! Accept them."
"Gasp! How disgusting! You should be ashamed of yourself!"
"Hmm..mm. Well, why don't you tell me more about that? How do you feel admitting that?

I like more of the third question since its non judgmental and seeking to understand. Sometimes, shame is not a bad thing. If a yell at my husband and curse at him, I feel ashamed of my behavior. I am more likely to repent and seek forgiveness when I am disgusted by what I have done.

It's about understanding the motives and origins of these feelings. If an origin or motive was linked to something gone wrong, why should we then encourage behaviors, not feelings, to continue?

Dulaney, you are thinking something went wrong with them to choose who they are attracted to. It's like saying you have something wrong in your past because you chose to marry the opposite sex. You were attracted to them, so why do you need to explain further?

[James81]

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

I have to use an analogy here. If a young man declared he was sexually attracted to children, would this be acceptable?

No. But there are some who would say that you are asking creepy questions and say that you possess the ability to be a child molester for asking such a question.

[Angela]

If a person has feelings that could lead him to doing behaviors that would interfere with the wellbeing of a child, then it seems to me that those feelings could bear examining. Even in that case, I don't believe that shame is effective; I think it is a form of resistance that makes no difference in keeping the children's wellbeing safe, and only drives the person with the feelings underground, perhaps even increasing the danger to the children.

A person who has feelings of sexual attraction for the same sex is not in danger of interfering with the wellbeing of a child anymore than someone who has feelings of attraction for the opposite sex does. They are two separate issues.

When you yell and curse at your husband, you are indeed generating hurtful attack on him, something that is not inherent to homosexuality, which is NOT an attack, it's a desire for expression of sexuality and love.

If shame is your resource for preventing yourself from attacking your husband, you would do well in developing more mature and effective resources, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

I have to use an analogy here. If a young man declared he was sexually attracted to children, would this be acceptable? Of course, these are feelings that may lead to behaviors, but for right now they are just feelings.

There are several responses one can take:

"It's ok. These are your feelings! Accept them."
"Gasp! How disgusting! You should be ashamed of yourself!"
"Hmm..mm. Well, why don't you tell me more about that? How do you feel admitting that?

I like more of the third question since its non judgmental and seeking to understand. Sometimes, shame is not a bad thing. If a yell at my husband and curse at him, I feel ashamed of my behavior. I am more likely to repent and seek forgiveness when I am disgusted by what I have done.

It's about understanding the motives and origins of these feelings. If an origin or motive was linked to something gone wrong, why should we then encourage behaviors, not feelings, to continue?

[dulaney0330]

Originally Posted by James81

No. But there are some who would say that you are asking creepy questions and say that you possess the ability to be a child molester for asking such a question.

Perhaps I should have elaborated that it would be within a counseling setting.

[Angela]

Plus, by the way, shame for what you've done is one thing; you can get the learnings from it and let it go.

But shame about feelings you have and who you know yourself to be is something else entirely; the only learning to get from that is that you are wrong creation, you are wrong and bad and you can only hope to survive and cope with that wrong and badness. That is the kind of shame that drives kids to jump off bridges.

And that is why I share Ssandra's wish that if you ever do have children, they are straight -- I do not wish your child to experience that sort of shame or you to experience that sort of earthshattering grief, as so many children and parents do.

[st33med]

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

Perhaps I should have elaborated that it would be within a counseling setting.

Which requires them to come up and admit what they feel is the problem.
The same for homosexuals. They don't feel it's a problem, so they don't go.

[dulaney0330]

Originally Posted by Angela

If a person has feelings that could lead him to doing behaviors that would interfere with the wellbeing of a child, then it seems to me that those feelings could bear examining. Even in that case, I don't believe that shame is effective; I think it is a form of resistance that makes no difference in keeping the children's wellbeing safe, and only drives the person with the feelings underground, perhaps even increasing the danger to the children.

A person who has feelings of sexual attraction for the same sex is not in danger of interfering with the wellbeing of a child anymore than someone who has feelings of attraction for the opposite sex does. They are two separate issues.

When you yell and curse at your husband, you are indeed generating hurtful attack on him, something that is not inherent to homosexuality, which is NOT an attack, it's a desire for expression of sexuality and love.

If shame is your resource for preventing yourself from attacking your husband, you would do well in developing more mature and effective resources, in my opinion.

I do not believe shame is effective 100% of the time. One of my favorite books is "soul without shame!" But, do I believe it can be an effective catalyst in some circumstances? Of course!

Like I said earlier, it serves a great purpose to understand and examine both the motives and origins of our feelings and behaviors.

[dulaney0330]

Originally Posted by st33med

Which requires them to come up and admit what they feel is the problem.
The same for homosexuals. They don't feel it's a problem, so they don't go.

All homosexuals?

[dulaney0330]

Originally Posted by Angela

Plus, by the way, shame for what you've done is one thing; you can get the learnings from it and let it go.

But shame about feelings you have and who you know yourself to be is something else entirely; the only learning to get from that is that you are wrong creation, you are wrong and bad and you can only hope to survive and cope with that wrong and badness. That is the kind of shame that drives kids to jump off bridges.

And that is why I share Ssandra's wish that if you ever do have children, they are straight -- I do not wish your child to experience that sort of shame or you to experience that sort of earthshattering grief, as so many children and parents do.

I don't believe this has to be the case. I have struggled with low self-esteem, depression and anxiety. Some of the shame I felt came from society, some of it myself, and lastly family. But, I came to a place where I could acknowledge I struggled without shame. To a place of compassion, acceptance, peace, and understanding. Understanding and compassion are key attributes, in my opinion, to weeding out shame.

Thanks for your concerns, angela.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

I do not believe shame is effective 100% of the time. One of my favorite books is "soul without shame!" But, do I believe it can be an effective catalyst in some circumstances? Of course!

Like I said earlier, it serves a great purpose to understand and examine both the motives and origins of our feelings and behaviors.

As I mentioned, when you feel ashamed of who you know yourself to be -- when examination of your feelings leads you to the knowledge that your only hope is to survive and cope with your essential wrongness and badness, and you are doomed to living in a world that sees you as wrong and bad - a world in which your MOTHER judges you as shameful - there is nowhere to get to with such a catalyst -- nowhere that feels good, anyway.

Self-destruction, inauthentic marriage to someone you don't desire (leaving your spouse unsatisfied, baffled, and ashamed), or like one of these many politicians and others who project their shame and wrongness out onto others, and end up caught with their foot in someone else's airport toilet stall.

[dulaney0330]

Originally Posted by Angela

As I mentioned, when you feel ashamed of who you know yourself to be -- when examination of your feelings leads you to the knowledge that your only hope is to survive and cope with your essential wrongness and badness, and you are doomed to living in a world that sees you as wrong and bad - a world in which your MOTHER judges you as shameful - there is nowhere to get to with such a catalyst -- nowhere that feels good, anyway.

Self-destruction, inauthentic marriage to someone you don't desire (leaving your spouse unsatisfied, baffled, and ashamed), or like one of these many politicians and others who project their shame and wrongness out onto others, and end up caught with their foot in someone else's airport toilet stall.

Do you believe its possible to acknowledge wrongful behavior and feelings without damaging oneself? Without feeling shame?

Also, is it possible to judge a behavior and not the person? Do you assume every parent who disapproves of homosexuality shames the child?

*Leaving for dinner. Be back later.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

Do you believe its possible to acknowledge wrongful behavior and feelings without damaging oneself? Without feeling shame?

Also, is it possible to judge a behavior and not the person? Do you assume every parent who disapproves of homosexuality shames the child?

I believe it's possible to notice that your behavior doesn't work well, and that if you make your feelings wrong, you are generating bad feelings and probably shame.

And I believe it is possible to judge a behavior and not the person, and if you judge something you see as a behavior but the person sees as an inherent aspect of their being, especially a child's or young person's, who has access to less resource for not making your judgement mean anything about themselves, then the experience of that child or young person is an experience of being judged.

And when that judgement is that there's something wrong or bad -- yes, that shames the child.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

Many children feel shame for being different. Is this shame induced by society, ourselves, truth? If one wishes to assume it's 100% society, please feel free.

Societies will always have a set of morals, rules, normalities, etc. Every human being will feel different in some way when measuring him or herself according to a societal rule. But, do we blame the rule? Perhaps the rule that we blame another praises

If someone is born with a disability, like having only one leg, or malformed face... large parts of society won't approve that, and will try to shame this person.

Does that mean that society is right? That someone with a malformed face should be ashamed of themselves?

Then you have the fact that different societies think in different ways. In the Netherlands being gay would be as weird as being black. (in other words, not the majority, but not weird either).

So there wouldn't be a society induced shame. Would that mean that in the Netherlands being homosexual would be ok and normal, but in the US it wouldn't?

[Weena]

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

My thoughts on homosexuality have more to do with psychology than religion. My favorite psychoanalyst (a non religious man), Robert Firestone, has greatly influenced my ideas on the origins of homosexuality. He believed it had a lot to do with parenting styles.

So you take one dude's opinion as your own? Why not reading a lot more books on the topic before assuming one person has it right?

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

Are you saying that homosexuality is not hurting anyone?

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

Well, if you want to argue semantics, homosexuality could be hurting the person...depression, anxiety, low self-esteem and it could emotionally hurt family members/friends.

Let me give you a real life example yet again: my lovely baby sister is gay. She "came out" (silly expression) as gay when she was a teen. My parents, myself and siblings were totally okay with it. We do not feel hurt or ashamed that she is "different". She enjoys being with women romantically. Then what? Does it make her a less intelligent, less spiritual, less "balanced" person? No. Her sexual orientation does not define her. She is who she is. What she chooses for her private life is her business just as is ours when it comes to our private life. Period.

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

I have to use an analogy here. If a young man declared he was sexually attracted to children, would this be acceptable?

Do you realise that you are talking of two unrelated topics here? In the case of child molesting, the child is a victim and does not consent to the sexual interaction. In the case of homosexuality, you have two consenting adults that are in love with each other. I'm with James on this one, your analogy is just plain creepy.

Of course i realise saying all this won't change your opinion about homosexuality, and i don't want this topic to turn into a Dunaley bashing. You stand where you stand, and given you don't seem to know any homosexual people, you cannot fathom the idea that they are no different than you. It's okay. Maybe in your next life you will be gay and won't get why people such as you define you based on your sexual orientation instead of your intrinsic self...

[James81]

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

Do you believe its possible to acknowledge wrongful behavior and feelings without damaging oneself?

Yes.

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

Without feeling shame?

Yes.

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

Also, is it possible to judge a behavior and not the person?

Yes.

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

Do you assume every parent who disapproves of homosexuality shames the child?

No.

I think if you separate the behavior from the person, you can make an assertion that you feel a particular behavior is wrong or ineffective without making it mean anything about the person who engages in it. In some cases, that can be tough to do, though.

I don't think there is anything wrong with you thinking that homosexuality is wrong. I think you have every right to that opinion and that belief. However, I think your rights stop where another person's begin. That is, restricting someone from the same freedoms that you enjoy because you feel a particular behavior is wrong (such as allowing them to marry, for instance).

And where THAT stops is where their behavior affects others freedoms. That is, we stop people from killing and stealing because those behaviors restrict others' freedoms. But to stop a person from getting married is only restricting THEIR freedom.

[aelle]

Originally Posted by Angela

Dulaney, I don't know how profoundly shaming and insulting it can occur for a gay kid to encounter an attitude that compares his sexuality to low self-esteem or that it's the result of something going wrong.

I hope that you will pray to the God you trust to help you to understand how that attitude contributes to the environment in which tragedies such as the recent spate of suicides flourishes.

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but I really hope you re-think that in light of the impact it has on children.

I can't give you more rep because I've apparently alread given you too much, but thank you Angela for saying exactly what I think but couldn't have phrased so nicely.

[Bliss Sage]

I appreciate this conversation, and it is a little shocking in how it has pointed out to me so many similarities between the suicidal condition, depression and being gay that I lost count of them. I have never seen homosexuality so clearly as being a psychological phenomenon before. I think I can apply almost every argument here in defense of homosexuality as something inborn and apply it to my experience of my suicidal depression. And I never dreamt that I, as a suicidal depressive, had so many things in common with the plight of homosexuals.

I do wish there would be this kind of compassion for people who were suicidal for reasons other than being gay.

[dulaney0330]

Originally Posted by st33med

Dulaney, you are thinking something went wrong with them to choose who they are attracted to. It's like saying you have something wrong in your past because you chose to marry the opposite sex. You were attracted to them, so why do you need to explain further?

I believe there are many factors in all facets of our development and this includes our sexuality. Attraction: "to arouse or compel the interest, admiration, or attention of." I believe attraction is somewhat undermined by transference..what is carried over from the past. I tend to have a deterministic psychological style since it assists in my discussions on past mentality. Human beings have a natural tendency to duplicate and continue past feelings, comforts, circumstances, inner self, and behaviors. Each child interacts and perceives each parent, friend, classmate, situation differently. Each parent interacts and perceives each child differently.

Attraction can mean many things and that attraction could be a past motivator, a way to blot out painful feelings or let downs, or learned. Do we learn from society who to be attracted to? Is it biologically driven? Both? There is a mystery about it!