Homosexuality

[Lioness]

Originally Posted by Mounds

If you made a conscious decision that you would no longer be attracted to women, how do you think that would turn out? Could you see yourself becoming attracted to men...

This is a good point, but in the case of men who have sex with both men and women, it is not that clear-cut. There are closeted gay men, bisexual men, and men who are on the "DL" (down-low). I have heard men who will admit to being on the DL but don't consider themselves gay at all. They identify as straight men who indulge in same-sex encounters.

Bishop Long is married with children, as is Rev.Ted Haggard, who had a simlar scandal. (The bishop is innocent until proven guilty, but for the sake of argument, let's assume the young men who have accused him are not lying.) Men like this are able to maintain physical relations with their wives, which indicates that they are at least marginally attracted to women, and not exclusively to men.

Haggard has claimed that he was acting out the molestation he suffered as a child, but that he is heterosexual. People scoff at this and say he is in denial. But molestation can have a huge impact on one's sexuality.

My conclusion is that men who are basically hetero in nature, but have compulsions to "act out" earlier experiences could lose those compulsions through counseling/therapy. Sexuality is not always set in stone from birth.

I find it odd that Steve hasn't replied to this thread.

If you scroll down this forum, you will see that Steve doesn't always reply to questions. Besides, he said in his last blog that he won't be blogging (or posting at all, I assume) while he is on his current road trip. He is basically on vacation.

[Mounds]

*shrug*

Guess we could just ask a gay person

I'm in the camp that says it's from birth. I'd imagine environment would determine if a person remains in the closet or not. For instance, someone who grew up in a very religious community would be more likely to hide it than someone who grew up in a very open community.

-Tim

[Rubns]

Originally Posted by Andwan

Im incline to believe that God doesn't care what choices we make, its just that not all choices we make are benefiting us....One thing about homosexuals is that they have a sterotype of being child molesters, and over sexed freaks....In some cases this is true, not to mention the flamboyances that is displayed by gay men, and the masculine nature that is displayed by gay women....Further more, it always appears that homosexuals who behave this way always have a negative agenda...They are obsseded with their bodies, clothes, gossip, and sometimes violence (especailly for gay women...It seems they believe that being a man means being violent...)....

Are you serious?

I assume the avatar pic is you. I see you're a black man. I guess you don't want me to mention each and every negative stereotype many people have about black people. Do you believe that your skin color determine your personality, habits, behaviors or even if you're violent or not? Of course not! It's ridiculous.

I'm homosexual and I can tell you that I'm not effeminate, I don't like children, I'm not obsessed with my body, I don't like going shopping (I hate it), I'm not gossip, actually I don't like gossips. Do you want me to tell you a secret? the best part of the story is that the great majority of homosexuals are as normal as you and me.

What you say it's just the tip of the iceberg. It's what you see but not the reality. The reason most homosexuals seem to be like this is because "normal" homosexuals are afraid of rejection. People around them assume that they're straight. It's more difficult to break that assumption, so they don't confess their real sexuality. Effeminate homosexuals have it easier. People assume that they're gay from the beginning. Result? Most people think ALL gay people are like this.

Do you remember when you first felt attracted to girls? Something natural. Guess what! This also happened to me! but replace girl with boy. As simple as that, as natural as that.

I didn't choose anything, it just happened. Don't complicate something that is so simple

[Mounds]

Originally Posted by Rubns

Do you remember when you first felt attracted to girls? Something natural. Guess what! This also happened to me! but replace girl with boy. As simple as that, as natural as that.

I didn't choose anything, it just happened. Don't complicate something that is so simple

This is always how I figured it was
If gay people themselves say "This is how it is", who am I to desperately grasp for something that makes it unnatural (environment, molestation, Satan)? Love is a beautiful thing, whether it is a man and a woman or two people of the same sex.

[Cochonette]

I've heard (of) a lot of people saying that they became attracted to the same sex due to this, that, or the other (childhood molestation, pheromones, genetics). Before studies about gay genes came out, and anti-gay people started with the "it's a choice" argument, the majority of gay-identified people said their orientation was "a choice." Honestly, I think no one really knows, and people just choose whatever origin story they like. But some of it, like all the examples I listed above, sounds like a lot of bullocks or oversimplification to me. You're gay because you were molested? Okay, but were you attracted to the "opposite" sex before that? No. I had one friend tell me he was gay because he was molested, then he started telling me I must be gay because my dad did something to me, which he got confused with something that I really doubt has anything to do with my orientation, and much less to do with my dad.

Maybe some people do change orientation due to childhood horrors, but I doubt it's nearly as many as claim so. I never hear straight people say they became straight for such reasons. It's just assumed they were born straight. I think it's ridiculous that so many gay people think they need to supply a "reason" that they're attracted to a particular sex.

[Rubns]

Originally Posted by Mounds

This is always how I figured it was
If gay people themselves say "This is how it is", who am I to desperately grasp for something that makes it unnatural (environment, molestation, Satan)? Love is a beautiful thing, whether it is a man and a woman or two people of the same sex.

Because most people are afraid of what they don't know or understand. It's easier to reject than understand, easier to judge than listen, easier to hurt than help, easier to ignore than learn...

[ZephyrusX]

Originally Posted by someone

3. I don't know if homosexuality is wrong...Im a christian and God said all things are lawful, but not all things are beneficial...When it comes to interpreting this scriputre, Im incline to believe that God doesn't care what choices we make, its just that not all choices we make are benefiting us....One thing about homosexuals is that they have a sterotype of being child molesters, and over sexed freaks....In some cases this is true, not to mention the flamboyances that is displayed by gay men, and the masculine nature that is displayed by gay women....Further more, it always appears that homosexuals who behave this way always have a negative agenda...They are obsseded with their bodies, clothes, gossip, and sometimes violence (especailly for gay women...It seems they believe that being a man means being violent...)....

I am a homosexual woman... *flexes muscles and starts beating on Mounds* Who is the man!

On a serious note: someone else recommended making friends with a couple of homosexual people as a means of gaining a better perspective. I second that advise. From my perspective, it sounds like you are living in some fantasy world.

[lookcloser]

Originally Posted by moonrambler

I have the impression that homosexual behavior in animals is opportunistic.

No, not really. They pretty much go through the similar **** homosexual humans have to go through.

Gay penguins steal eggs from straight couples - Telegraph

"A German zoo provoked outrage from gay lobby groups after attempting to mate a group of gay male penguins with Swedish female birds who were flown in especially to seduce them. But the project was abandoned after the males refused to be "turned", showing no interest in their would-be mates."

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by lookcloser

No, not really. They pretty much go through the similar **** homosexual humans have to go through.

Gay penguins steal eggs from straight couples - Telegraph

"A German zoo provoked outrage from gay lobby groups after attempting to mate a group of gay male penguins with Swedish female birds who were flown in especially to seduce them. But the project was abandoned after the males refused to be "turned", showing no interest in their would-be mates."

That is very interesting. I didn't know anything about gay penguins.

I clicked on a link on that page but it was a bit shallow; they mentioned the opportunistic aspect:

". . . on the Hawaiian island of Oahu, almost a third of the Laysan albatross population is raised by pairs of two females because of the shortage of males."

This was also interesting:

"Some homosexual behaviour was often a product of natural selection to further the survival of the species. "

I wonder how homosexual behavior furthers survival of the human species?

I tend to agree with those who see attraction as a continuum rather than either/or.

[Chris_1977]

Whether homosexual behaviour in animals is opportunistic or something intrinsic to the individual animal, depends on the species, as far as I know. The wikipedia page lists quite a few spieces. Homosexual behavior in animals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[HeartExalted]

Originally Posted by Mounds

Guess we could just ask a gay person

Sure thing. Basically, in my case, it was like this: When I got into my preteen/early teen years (you know, the time when most boys that age start noticing girls), I was noticing my complete lack of interest in girls. Seriously! For me, Playboy or Penthouse was every bit as interesting and arousing as a grocery list.

At the same time, I would watch shows like Baywatch, only to realize that I could care less about the women -- but I was very intently noticing the guys running up and down the beach in their swim trunks! Then, since I continued to assume I was straight, I would try to have straight fantasies, and I started envision MFM threesomes. In theory, that could still be straight, but somehow, I always found a way to push the "F" to the very periphery of the fantasy...until she fell out completely and it was only MM - and the rest is history!

So, there was never a conscious choice involved...only a progressively clearer realization of who I really was. I spent years learning for myself that it was perfectly fine and years more trying to convince others in my life. And now, convincing others is no longer important to me...I am who I am, and it is what it is.

Okay, it's affirmation time:

I am grateful for my self-acceptance, for my freedom from religious dogma, and for my complete indifference to questions of moral/immoral and natural/unnatural.

[Lioness]

My point is being lost here. I was responding to the OP's question:

Originally Posted by Andwan

Do you believe in ex gay programs? Do you believe that sexual orientation can be changed, simply by will, especially for thoes, who suffered sexual abuse as a child?

The ultimate authority on this issue (as it relates to the man in question, Bishop Eddie Long) is not a gay man. It would be a married man with kids who wanted to stop having same-sex encounters AND went through a treatment program. Even so, every individual's experience will not be the same.

In the case of guys who have NEVER been attracted to women, the chances of changing through some program, IMO would be nil.

However, it seems possible that someone who can be attracted to and has relations with the opposite sex and wants to become exclusively heterosexual, could work through their homosexual desires, particularly if they were generated by childhood molestation. Doesn't this make sense?

[Weena]

Originally Posted by stewartM

As to the OP, being gay isn't a choice, if it was why would i take the path where i would be disowned by my family?

Seconded, homosexuality is not a choice, it just is.

Originally Posted by Dukie

Are you living in the same world as me?

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

I believe homosexuality is the result of something going wrong; imbalance whether biologically, emotionally, and parenting has the biggest influence. In addition, a person's unique personality traits will either offset this imbalance or add to it.

imbalance? I know some gay people way more balanced than straight people . And if parenting has anything to do with it, how come my parents have three straight children and one homosexual child? We were raised pretty much the same way. I cannot grasp your logic...you seem to describe homosexuality as a defect?

[Undercurrent]

Anyone considering Homosexuality a defect is unaware of the motive that drives individuals, anyone even ourselves anytime homosexually in point of fact. I remember and I also revealed this to all in my previous posters too, I enjoyed secretly when my uncle did it to me and I do not consider it was abusive and it is the bubble of a desire labeled as a taboo and went un-discussed in society. I have a woman and the urge for homosexuality is not intense, but that does not mean I have no motive for it and it just remains suppressed and can surface anytime if the situation turns for the act. Everybody is a gay in secret or when unmasked or if he does not have the wrapping of culture or ethics

[Andrew Gubb]

Why would gays want to change their orientation if it harms none?

I do believe sexual orientation can vary over a lifetime, because for me it actually varies somewhat week-to-week. I kind of imagine it can be controlled to some extent consciously. But why?

I believe being gay is natural.

[Undercurrent]

Homosexuality is an urge and a kind of attraction between two humans and they want to live together in a relationship and in that relationship there is nothing abhorrent, dirty in this act. It is sheer our attitude that makes it dirty or else it is sacred.

Since we are told it is dirty we think it is. But there is sacredness about it

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

Why would gays want to change their orientation if it harms none?

I do believe sexual orientation can vary over a lifetime, because for me it actually varies somewhat week-to-week. I kind of imagine it can be controlled to some extent consciously. But why?

I believe being gay is natural.

Ha! Me too, some days I'm really attracted to men, others to women. Dunno why!

[lookcloser]

Originally Posted by secrets0stolen

Ha! Me too, some days I'm really attracted to men, others to women. Dunno why!

To me too! Actually some days I'm attracted to masculine rugged lookin men. Other days I totally melt talking to an effeminate man. Its the same way with women, some days I like THEM to be more masculine and dominant, other days I want to be like the dominant one.(All in my fantasies of course) I always just blamed them on the hormones

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by Mounds

This is always how I figured it was
If gay people themselves say "This is how it is", who am I to desperately grasp for something that makes it unnatural (environment, molestation, Satan)? Love is a beautiful thing, whether it is a man and a woman or two people of the same sex.

BRAVO! Completely agree.

[dulaney0330]

Originally Posted by Weena

imbalance? I know some gay people way more balanced than straight people . And if parenting has anything to do with it, how come my parents have three straight children and one homosexual child? We were raised pretty much the same way. I cannot grasp your logic...you seem to describe homosexuality as a defect?

I don't know about defect. I view it the same way as low self-esteem. The reasons for low self-esteem always begin in childhood and often are the result of parenting, vulnerable personality attributes, and possibly biological imbalances.

It's not solely based on parenting. Every child encounters a multitude of different experiences that undermines each child's unique personality, combined with a different biological makeup.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

I don't know about defect. I view it the same way as low self-esteem. The reasons for low self-esteem always begin in childhood and often are the result of parenting, vulnerable personality attributes, and possibly biological imbalances.

It's not solely based on parenting. Every child encounters a multitude of different experiences that undermines each child's unique personality, combined with a different biological makeup.

Dulaney, I don't think you know how profoundly shaming and insulting it can occur for a gay kid to encounter an attitude that compares his sexuality to low self-esteem or that it's the result of something going wrong.

I hope that you will pray to the God you trust to help you to understand how that attitude contributes to the environment in which tragedies such as the recent spate of suicides flourishes.

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but I really hope you re-think that in light of the impact it has on children.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

I don't know about defect. I view it the same way as low self-esteem. The reasons for low self-esteem always begin in childhood and often are the result of parenting, vulnerable personality attributes, and possibly biological imbalances.

It's not solely based on parenting. Every child encounters a multitude of different experiences that undermines each child's unique personality, combined with a different biological makeup.

I truly hope for your sake and the sake of your children that they will all be straight.

I get that you think that way... But truly, I believe that God is more concerned with loving in general then with who we love...

[ssandra]

As a general reaction to the entire idea of "being gay is a sin, because it says so in the bible..." :

[Andrew Brunelle]

You could probably try and fool yourself that you are straight, but when it comes to attraction, it is my belief that we cannot change who we are attracted to. It takes place on an instinctual level. It could be that some people are not really gay that are labeled gay and that some straight people are not really straight, but they fall somewhere in the middle. Then there are those who are not attracted to either male or female, and those that just don't feel like making the effort.

I think through enough brainwashing and conditioning, you could fool yourself into being straight, and if that is what you want, then you can have it. But it would have to be reinforced regularly. I know that the gay community takes a lot of hits, but you shouldn't allow this to make you want to change who you are. I shouldn't say anything else, because I don't know what it is like to be gay, so I really don't know for sure.

[dulaney0330]

Originally Posted by ssandra

I truly hope for your sake and the sake of your children that they will all be straight.

I get that you think that way... But truly, I believe that God is more concerned with loving in general then with who we love...

Well, I do not plan on having children but are you assuming I would not love my child?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

Well, I do not plan on having children but are you assuming I would not love my child?

I think the assumption is that you would consider that your homosexual child's sexuality is the result of something gone wrong or that it's like low self-esteem -- and regardless of how much you feel yourself to love him, a judgement like that is going to have an impact -- a really sh*tty-feeling one.

[Cochonette]

Originally Posted by lookcloser

To me too! Actually some days I'm attracted to masculine rugged lookin men. Other days I totally melt talking to an effeminate man. Its the same way with women, some days I like THEM to be more masculine and dominant, other days I want to be like the dominant one.(All in my fantasies of course) I always just blamed them on the hormones

Hahahaha. I think it would be cool to date someone like that. I couldn't deal with a total dom or sub, no freaking way!

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

Well, I do not plan on having children but are you assuming I would not love my child?

No, I think that if you would have children you would love them.

But I also think that if they would turn out to be gay, you might still love them, but at the same time feel that there is something wrong with them and something wrong with the way you raised them or exposed them to etc.

[dulaney0330]

Originally Posted by Angela

Dulaney, I don't know how profoundly shaming and insulting it can occur for a gay kid to encounter an attitude that compares his sexuality to low self-esteem or that it's the result of something going wrong.

I hope that you will pray to the God you trust to help you to understand how that attitude contributes to the environment in which tragedies such as the recent spate of suicides flourishes.

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but I really hope you re-think that in light of the impact it has on children.

Unlike most of the members on this forum, I do not believe every behavior expressed is in need of approval or agreement.

I noticed that both you and Ssandra use "God" in your posts and perhaps this is because you know I am a Christian? My thoughts on homosexuality have more to do with psychology than religion. My favorite psychoanalyst (a non religious man), Robert Firestone, has greatly influenced my ideas on the origins of homosexuality. He believed it had a lot to do with parenting styles. Is this insulting to a homosexual person? I do not believe so.

But, those who want to approve of every behavior will say its about shame.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

Unlike most of the members on this forum, I do not believe every behavior expressed is in need of approval or agreement.

I noticed that both you and Ssandra use "God" in your posts and perhaps this is because you know I am a Christian? My thoughts on homosexuality have more to do with psychology than religion. My favorite psychoanalyst (a non religious man), Robert Firestone, has greatly influenced my ideas on the origins of homosexuality. He believed it had a lot to do with parenting styles. Is this insulting to a homosexual person? I do not believe so.

But, those who want to approve of every behavior will say its about shame.

I also don't think that every behavior should be approved. Hitting people, hurting them physically or emotionally... all things that I think that children should learn to NOT do.

As long as it isn't hurting anyone, why do you think this behavior is unacceptable?