What is the Point of Thinking of Reality as a Dream?

[Betrade]

Originally Posted by cylon

Because the ego doesn't create. The ego is created. Whatever created the ego is what creates.

This whole time you've been lashing out against solipsism, not subjective reality.

But I assumed it was the way you describe, too at first. So it's normal to still think in terms of physical body/physical brain where all the thoughts are.

As long as you believe in the physical world as separate from the unseen world this will never make sense to you.

This isn't a "thinking" thing, it's a feeling and experiencing thing. Very hard to put into words, but you can "point" to it.

I'm not lashing out by any means. I'm just killing time and putting a few thoughts down. I don't take this stuff very seriously because IMO, it's not even true to begin with. It's never personal either BTW.

Oh, and I absolutely believe in and have experienced aspects of the unseen world and that we're all part of a bigger whole, but I don't believe that my reality is something I'm dreaming up as I go along. I've had experiences I wouldn't have dreamed for 100 million bucks.

No, if our consciousness and experiences were just dreams that we're dreaming, we could change anything at will, instantly; like in a dream. Unfortunately, that isn't the case and I defy anyone to choose a particular outcome, say, that Mt. Everest disappeared, or that tomorrow the Sahara will be a tropical paradise and let's see what really happens. we all know the answer; absolutely nothing will happen because we can't just dream circumstances into existence, despite the fact that we would like to.

Was the Earth flat when everyone thought it was?? Of course not, but according to certain beliefs, beliefs create reality and actually affect matter. that may be true to a point but there is a point where it isn't as well.

I've also heard a story touted that certain Indians couldn't see Columbus's ships because they were never a part of their reality. After digging a bit deeper, I also learned that this story is a big fat lie and there's no actual documentation of anything of the kind ever happening. But, if certain ideas are presented properly, or in a particular way, people can, will and do believe in almost anything; even when their own common sense tells them that they're being bamboozled.

The idea is nothing more than wishful thinking IMO. It's also making some big bucks for certain people. That's great, fine and dandy but I wouldn't spend a penny on any of it; especially when so much information is available for free anyway.

I have no problem whatsoever with anyone believing in this idea. Hey, whatever floats your boat, I'm OK, you're OK, but I don't; even after lengthy consideration, and even after coming really close to falling into that line of thinking at one point. In fact, the lengthy consideration led me to completely discount the idea. After following basic logic I came to the conclusion that SR is right up there with the tooth fairy and Santa.

Again, that's my opinion. Yours is cool too. We'll just have to agree to disagree agreeably.

[Mounds]

Your my hero, Betrade. Not just for using the word bamboozled either.

[Betrade]

Originally Posted by moonrambler

I've lost count of how many times people come onto the IM or Spiritual forum or wherever, and announce that no one can ever convince them otherwise. Haven't you ever had your reality foundation shaken? Haven't you ever been able to relate to the concept of "losing my religion"? Hasn't anything ever happened that went completely against what you believed to be true, and you had to stop and question some really fundamental beliefs? How can you be so certain that no one could ever convince you otherwise no matter what?

Of course I have. I believe in the idea of "never say never" and I've had lots of things shaken up; one being the idea of SR.

I've had numerous experiences with the "unseen world" and several mystical experiences. I know full well that these things happen, but despite my own experiences I don't believe that reality is subjective as defined by Steve on this site.

Lots of things in life ARE subjective but IMO, there are limits and not ALL things are subjective. Truth is subjective, time is relative, etc., but that doesn't mean that my reality is something I'm dreaming up.

Again, if believing that makes you happy, knock yourself out. I surely don't care. Not believing in that theory works for me so I don't. We can both believe what we want and that's cool too. Please don't think that any of this is personal.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Betrade

Lots of things in life ARE subjective but IMO, there are limits and not ALL things are subjective.

Possibly you are right. Some things could be objective. But you will never know what they are.

Anything which you perceive, you perceive with your own mind and senses.

Anything which you understand, you understand with your mind.

Anything which you know, you know with your mind.

There is nothing you have ever perceived, understood or known about your reality, which was not your own perception, understanding or knowledge.

Your own perception, understanding and knowledge are all processes of your own consciousness.

In other words, subjective.

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by Betrade

Again, if believing that makes you happy, knock yourself out. I surely don't care. Not believing in that theory works for me so I don't. We can both believe what we want and that's cool too. Please don't think that any of this is personal.

I never said I believe in it I'm just playing around with the idea.

And maybe you can change anything in your dream instantly, but mine typically are not so cooperative!

[nklplnt]

What is the point of viewing reality as if it were a dream? Overall these are the main benefits:

-Fearlessness. You can not be harmed. Your identity becomes consciousness itself instead of your physical body/mind. Once you adopt this perspective should feel almost no fear.

-Responsibility. You are the dreamer of this reality. Therefore you have to take full responsibility for everything you are manifesting. If things are going to change for the better, YOU have to do something about it.

-Power. You are the programmer of this reality. Nothing is impossible when you hold this belief in subjective reality.

Remember, the reason that you cannot make Mt. Everest disappear at will once you adopt this perspective is that you have conflicting beliefs. You believe it is impossible and therefore it is impossible. You probably have hundreds of beliefs that make it impossible for you to do this kind of thing. The truth is, it isn't very important. Though technically you should eventually be able to do things like change the laws of physics and make deserts into jungles...

-Bliss. You will feel a constant state of joy. If this is a dream, anything is possible. You will be in a state of absolute wonder all the time.. Total excitement, unconditional love for all aspects of yourself. Oneness.

This is not from experience by the way, it's just my understanding of SR. It really isn't easy to fully adopt the perspective that everything in your reality is a projection of your own thoughts...

[cylon]

That was a great post, nklplnt.

All the things you described really ARE the experience.

At first most people get sidetracked with the negative "big picture" stuff. Almost always they initially wonder about accidents, war, murder, rape, etc. With their old world view, somehow they were able to cope with those things. In a world view where you are God, suddenly those things become even more immediate than they were before. Because it's your responsibility. You don't feel the pain as much since you know that it's an illusion. But you DO take the pain more personally. More personally than someone who thought those 'victims' were not themselves.

But once you get past that I think you truly see the wonder of it all. You don't lose compassion--everyone is you. You can only feel compassion and love in the face of those things. Everyone who suffers is you. How could you not feel compassion? Everyone who feels joy is you also. How can you not feel bliss?

It's not so bad.

Things will be ok.

[Betrade]

Originally Posted by nklplnt

-Fearlessness. You can not be harmed. Your identity becomes consciousness itself instead of your physical body/mind. Once you adopt this perspective should feel almost no fear.

Ever heard of injury, sickness or death?? You may "feel" no fear, which is more common than you probably think, but don't believe for a second that you can't be harmed.

I don't know about you, but I've suffered several injuries that have put me flat on my back for months at a time; unable to walk or do much of anything else. In fact, I've recently recovered from such an injury this summer.

When your body is injured and you're limited as to what you can physically do, your perspective changes significantly. Under those circumstances, a belief that you can't be harmed falls flat on it's face because you know better.



Then there's death, which we all have to face, but with a few precautions we can stave it off and get more time here.

For instance; if not for wearing a crash helmet I most likely would have been killed in a motorcycle accident. I went over the handlebars and head first straight into a huge tree. If I believed that I couldn't be hurt I may not have taken proper precautions.

As far as fear itself goes, I'm pretty fearless; a daredevil type if you will, but anything I can do to make the risky things that I do more safe are things that I will definitely do. That's just common sense.

Do you wear seat belts when you drive or does the belief that you can't be harmed lead you to forgo doing so?? If you do, why do you and do you truly believe that you can't be harmed??

People can be harmed and do get harmed every single day all over this world. The human body is fairly frail despite it's resilience and ability to heal. it takes very little to injure someone or to end a human life. One slip on a staircase can mean the end.

[cylon]

There's a difference between fearlessness, and recklessness.

One comes from trust. Another comes from the desire to "cheat death"... which comes directly out of trying to overcome fear (meaning, it IS fear) .

When you trust nothing bad can happen, you are fearless. But it's not the hyper adrenaline junkie fix thing. It's a quiet calm that over takes you. And when you are feeling that way, you just don't think about all the bad things that could happen in a given day.

But the thing is that bad stuff CAN happen. Because if you focus on it, and start to think "god I hope this doesn't happen" then fear/separation has set in and you better believe that stuff will come your way.

So it comes down to responsibility. Do I want a happy, safe, peaceful life? Yeah. One way to do that is accept that if I think about bad things habitually, then I will be responsible for them coming into my life. If I don't think about those things habitually, I won't create them.

It's very simple.

[catalyst]

Originally Posted by cylon

There's a difference between fearlessness, and recklessness.

One comes from trust. Another comes from the desire to "cheat death"... which comes directly out of trying to overcome fear (meaning, it IS fear) .

When you trust nothing bad can happen, you are fearless. But it's not the hyper adrenaline junkie fix thing. It's a quiet calm that over takes you. And when you are feeling that way, you just don't think about all the bad things that could happen in a given day.

But the thing is that bad stuff CAN happen. Because if you focus on it, and start to think "god I hope this doesn't happen" then fea/separation has set in and you better believe that stuff will come your way.

So it comes down to responsibility. Do I want a happy, safe, peaceful life? Yeah. One way to do that is accept that if I think about bad things habitually, then I will be responsible for them coming into my life. If I don't think about those things habitually, I won't create them.

It's very simple.

Bad things can happen - believing otherwise is deluding yourself. That is a fact of life.

You don't always have control of what happens around you, but you do have the power in how you react to the situation.

The problem I have with SR is that it tells you to avoid and ignore our own survival skills - the ability to reason. How is a skyscraper built to stand on its own weight? How does the Internet work? The great accomplishments and achievements of our civilization are grounded in humans ability to use reason, and logic. No amount of wishing or believing in something, without rational action, could have produced these.

It seems those that preach about SR want it both ways - they want to enjoy all the great things that man has produced by rational reasoning, but still tell others, and perhaps themselves, that they should abandon reason. Objective reality and this notion of SR where all is a dream are incompatible by the nature of the very argument.

A person may have subjective beliefs in the meaning they find in things, but whether or not they believe the world is flat, the earth is round. There is an objective truth - an absolute truth. Without this, every moral argument is equivalent - and that to me is why SR is beyond repugnant.

[curiouslyrandom]

"I've also heard a story touted that certain Indians couldn't see Columbus's ships because they were never a part of their reality. After digging a bit deeper, I also learned that this story is a big fat lie and there's no actual documentation of anything of the kind ever happening. But, if certain ideas are presented properly, or in a particular way, people can, will and do believe in almost anything; even when their own common sense tells them that they're being bamboozled."

Just a correction: They couldn't "see" the ships because they had no point of reference to recognize they even were ships. This is not SR, it's psychology.

As for the people who created great and marvelous things such as skyscrapers and the internet, these people weren't exactly working logically when they dreamed up their ideas. They were imagining something that had never existed before. Without the dreamers, we would not progress, I should think. They applied logic to bring these inventions into being, but the idea started out as a dream, waking or otherwise.

For those who angrily deny SR, what is it you're afraid of seeing or experiencing?

[curiouslyrandom]

A little of my own SR experience this week:

I'm self-employed, so I can work or not work when I want to. I still have bills to pay, so the money or resources have to come from somewhere, right? In my daily life I sometimes slip into an SR state where I recognize things and people around me are a dream (purely my interpretation, you can believe whatever you would like) and I do feel a calming sense of wonder and oneness with everything around me. I feel the flow of energy and I can relax into it, which helps me find my way through the things that need to get done. Stuck in traffic? It's all my dream, so I must have wanted to slow down for a while (which was true). Crying baby in the post office? What is my discomfort? (once I figured that one out, the baby stopped crying).

Today I woke up and knew that I needed to get some work done for my business. I didn't feel a panic of "oh no! I didn't get paid for three days! I have to work hard or I'll lose my home!" Instead I felt a sense that today was the right day to get work done because I could feel the energy moving me to do it. I wanted to be at my desk getting down to work. It feels good.

I've watched people die, two of them quite recently. Did my concept of SR make their deaths any less important? No, because if everything is a part of me, then they were me, and the other mourners are me, and we all feel that pain, just in different ways.

[cylon]

I notice in myself (and others who are into SR or nonduality/etc) a sort of "take life as it comes" calmness that I didn't have before.

That's what responsibility does to you I think. Makes you more mature. When everything is you, you can't really complain, OR criticize.

[curiouslyrandom]

Originally Posted by cylon

I notice in myself (and others who are into SR or nonduality/etc) a sort of "take life as it comes" calmness that I didn't have before.

That's what responsibility does to you I think. Makes you more mature. When everything is you, you can't really complain, OR criticize.

Exactly. I was working really hard to derail a relationship, but when I could step back and see what I was doing (in an actual sleeping dream, no less), I could see how my actions were hurting not only me, but so many others around me. In SR terms, I suppose that means ALL of me?

I could flow through the situation instead of trying to force it into what I wanted it to be. As a result, the person in question and I have a much happier relationship now.

[nklplnt]

Originally Posted by Betrade

Ever heard of injury, sickness or death?? You may "feel" no fear, which is more common than you probably think, but don't believe for a second that you can't be harmed.

The thing is, in subjective reality your identity is no longer linked to your physical body. Your body is just your avatar in the dream world. The real YOU becomes consciousness itself, your physical death will not end your existence. The real you is invincible.

And to Catalyst:

SR does not tell you to avoid your own survival skills at all. The ability to reason is just as important in SR as OR.
You are correct that SR is not compatible with OR from an OR perspective. But the two are perfectly compatible from a SR perspective.

In SR, the reality you are experiencing is the sum total of your beliefs about reality (your context). Since your thoughts create your reality, and you have many fundamental thoughts about the nature of reality, you CANNOT simply dream up things such as the internet, skyscrapers etc. You are absolutely right. You hold thoughts that make you powerless to do those kinds of things. For example, I believe I cannot defy the laws of physics. SR does not make you automatically be able to perform miracles. Your thoughts do indeed create your reality, it's just that ALL of your thoughts are creating your reality. In order to use the Law of Attraction you first must eliminate the belief that the law doesn't work. Then let's say you intend to be beautiful. Well, you won't just suddenly become gorgeous... but you will attract something that is congruent with your beliefs. For me, I might get a thing in the mail for Proactive and order some and get clearer skin. All of that is congruent with my beliefs so I could manifest it.
As of now there is no way to build a skyscraper by just imagining it.

[cylon]

I think thoughts in and of themselves are just random bursts of nothing.

Consistent thought that turns into a belief over time is what gets reflected into reality. Not every single "what if?" that crosses your mind.

If you fundamentally believe, deep down, that a series of events or outcomes is possible, then yes they will happen.

[Mounds]

Originally Posted by nklplnt

The thing is, in subjective reality your identity is no longer linked to your physical body. Your body is just your avatar in the dream world. The real YOU becomes consciousness itself, your physical death will not end your existence. The real you is invincible.

I think what's more likely is that everything exists in an objective reality and within that reality exists the subjective reality (the one we create). Our interactions within the OR are subjective.
I do not think it's a good idea to assume that physical death will not end your existence. If that is the case, were the single lucky animal on the planet who gets that privilege.

-Tim

[curiouslyrandom]

Originally Posted by Mounds

I think what's more likely is that everything exists in an objective reality and within that reality exists the subjective reality (the one we create). Our interactions within the OR are subjective.
I do not think it's a good idea to assume that physical death will not end your existence. If that is the case, were the single lucky animal on the planet who gets that privilege.

-Tim

Not exactly, from what I understand. If we are all interconnected, then there is no "single lucky animal" that is dreaming all of this. It's all one consciousness.

[Mounds]

Originally Posted by cylon

If you fundamentally believe, deep down, that a series of events or outcomes is possible, then yes they will happen.

From everything you've ever experienced in your whole life, does that make sense? Doesn't add up for me.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Mounds

Doesn't add up for me.

Well, you don't believe in SR. I wouldn't expect it to add up for you.

[Mounds]

Originally Posted by curiouslyrandom

Not exactly, from what I understand. If we are all interconnected, then there is no "single lucky animal" that is dreaming all of this. It's all one consciousness.

Now I don't want to be a wet blanket but isn't the idea of us all being a single consciousness just a little bit convenient?
Obviously these theories didn't spring up overnight. They take a long time to develop so all the bugs get worked out. What we end up with is a belief system that has it's ass covered in every way possible except one: it's built on sand.
There's really nothing to suggest that this is a dream. There's lots to suggest that it's not.

Edit: Found this article. Worth a read: Transcending Subjective Reality

[nklplnt]

Originally Posted by Mounds

I do not think it's a good idea to assume that physical death will not end your existence.

It is impossible to know for sure. But from an experiential standpoint what belief do you think would yield better results, believing that your existence as a human being is all there is, or believing that there is something we can retain when we die? For me, I think the latter would yield the better results. But in the end it all comes down to a choice.

[Angela]

For those who are genuinely interested in knowing what is the point, I think Steve's latest blog post contains a wealth of insight into that inquiry.

[Mounds]

Originally Posted by nklplnt

It is impossible to know for sure. But from an experiential standpoint what belief do you think would yield better results, believing that your existence as a human being is all there is, or believing that there is something we can retain when we die? For me, I think the latter would yield the better results. But in the end it all comes down to a choice.

I'd say belief that your existence is as a human is all there is! That gives me far more motivation to make something of myself and pass on the good life to my friends, family and fellow man. If something follows death, then that's great!

[curiouslyrandom]

For years I fought against the idea of SR, feeling like it was some ridiculous in-joke that I wasn't part of. Now that I've started to embrace the concept more in my life, I find that it's more like waking up than falling asleep.

I read the article, Mounds, but there are a few points made that I disagree with. It seems as though the author and I have differing concepts of what SR is or how it can be used. I found his take on things rather limiting. For example:

But the greatest shortcoming of subjective reality theory is not its logical fallacy, or its inherent lack of falsifiability. The theory is dangerous because it is a cleverly concealed form of ego reinforcement. In a world where you control everything and everyone, there is no need for acceptance, and no path to ego transcendence.

When I am thinking in SR mode, I don't see myself that way at all. Just the opposite, in fact. When I'm having an argument with one of my teenage kids, I can remove myself and think "what is it this part of me is trying to say?" Doing so has actually helped me understand my kids better, and has improved our relationship.

Looking at it from the outside, SR appears selfish. From the inside, it is selfless. It's not all about getting what I want, but more about understanding what I need to do, how I can better interact, and how to create more balance. This really helps in my own marital arts practice.

[Betrade]

Originally Posted by curiouslyrandom

Just a correction: They couldn't "see" the ships because they had no point of reference to recognize they even were ships. This is not SR, it's psychology.



For those who angrily deny SR, what is it you're afraid of seeing or experiencing?

Two points; First of; who's angry?? If you think I am, think again. I'm smiling all day long my friend.

Second, psychology has nothing to do with the Indian story because it never happened. It's a big lie promoted by yet another New Age/We create our own reality by our thoughts movie, "What The Bleep Do We know".

If you don't believe me, look it up.
Haven't you ever wondered why it never happened anywhere else, only to Columbus, but not capt. Cook, or Magellan, Marco Polo or anyone else?? Ever also notice that there's an awful lot of anti Columbus bias out there these days that gets worse every year around October 12??



We're quite able to see and hear things that we never have before. If we couldn't we couldn't see new things through our telescopes, microscopes, discover brand new things, etc. We've all done it a million times.

The very idea that humans can't perceive things they've never encountered or thought about before is just dumb. Babies are born every day and EVERYTHING is BRAND NEW to them. Surely you don't believe that brand new, never before conceived things cannot be seen or perceived by babies?? I've raised a few kids and they don't miss anything.

[Betrade]

Originally Posted by Mounds

From everything you've ever experienced in your whole life, does that make sense? Doesn't add up for me.

Me neither. My life hasn't turned out remotely close to what I believed and what I planned. It's been a far more wild and interesting ride than I ever would have planned for myself.

As the saying goes; **** happens.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by curiouslyrandom

Looking at it from the outside, SR appears selfish. From the inside, it is selfless.

Right. SR says, feel love and compassion for everyone. Because if you don't, you're condemning yourself. That's selfless. Not in the sense of sacrificing yourself for others, but in the sense that there is literally only ONE self.

And it is all of us.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by curiouslyrandom

Looking at it from the outside, SR appears selfish. From the inside, it is selfless.

Yup, like many perspectives, to someone using a different perspective, it can present something quite different than it does to someone who is actually using the perspective. Kind of like relationships!

I love the spinning ballerina metaphor -- have you seen how frog-in-a-blender some people get, insisting that it's a hoax, a scam, a fake-out, and that people who believe they can shift the direction of her apparent spin are delusional or lying? And then suddenly they shift perspective and say, "oh. ok. I see now. "

[Betrade]

I found a pretty good critique of "What The Bleep do We Know" and some of it's more outlandish claims.

What the Bleep Do We Know!? [XP]

The last paragraph is very interesting as it points out how a physics philosopher was "taken", "gullible", and how he "learned his lesson" (his words) to appear in the film. They cleverly edited what he said to make it appear that he supported the premise of the movie; which he doesn't. Of course it also speaks about those darned invisible ships.