I want to believe! (SR and dying people.)

[Elfwing]

I don't really have a question with this, or a point. I'm just looking for comfort. Clarity. Because I'm a little distressed right now.

When I discovered Steve's dreamworld experiment, I was very excited. Since I was a kid a little bit of me has always wondered if the world was, in fact, real. I remember it being one of my first conscious thoughts.

And yet, I have to wonder if it interferes with free will, have to wonder if it's too self centered. Because even though it's not solipsism, I'm finding trouble distinguishing it from it.

But uh, that's not the point.

Shortly after I found out about the experiment my grandfather got a stroke. He's in hospital, has been for a while. At first I thought he was dying, then I was told I was not, and yet occasionally little things happen that make me wonder if he actually is - my father took a call in the kitchen where I heard him talk about a "decision" and ask "is he conscious?" Not "is he awake", but "Is he conscious"? I'm pretty sure there's a difference there.

He wouldn't tell me or my mother what the call was about, exactly, but we knew he was talking about him.

What I'm saying is that this whole event jerked me out of that. It made me feel delusional for ever thinking I could influence the world around me. Because why the hell would I want to make him sick? Why the hell would I want to endanger him like that? If he dies, would it be my fault? If we truly have the power to stop global warming with our thoughts (which no, I don't really believe), then how is it my thoughts can't keep my family healthy?

How can I even think that I could influence my reality when my grandfather may be dying? Having those thoughts when he's not well - I feel guilty for it. I feel deluded.

I hear some people say it's a perspective - but if it's only a perspective, why are we talking about things like telekinesis? That's not a perspective!

I could just drop the perspective - and drop the guilt, and (some of) the distress and confusion too. But I genuinely do want to believe.

I know people can't "make" me believe or find answers, but I'm just a bit confuzzled. And I'm hoping somebody has something to share that might help me untangle this mess.

Thoughts?

[James81]

Contrary to popular opinion, Elfwing, the world does not revolve around us. So, you can let go of the guilt with your grandfather. It's not your fault. (Although, I'm sorry to hear it. Hope it all works out for the best for him. )

The idea of SR, and please note this is just my opinion and it disagrees with most others opinions on SR, is to create a frame of responsibility for your thoughts and actions. It helps you to see just how much power you DO have in creating your own reality....not as if you were in a dream, but just in terms of how powerful the idea of taking 100% responsibility for your own thoughts and actions really is.

That's the crux of it. If you don't want to literally believe it (I don't), then the important and most powerful part of it is that: you are responsibile for how you feel and how you act at all times. You always have that power (and it's the only power you truly ever have).

[Elfwing]

Thank you, James. I believe that at the very least. Suddenly, everything seems a lot easier to deal with if one believes this is a dream.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Elfwing

What I'm saying is that this whole event jerked me out of that. It made me feel delusional for ever thinking I could influence the world around me. Because why the hell would I want to make him sick? Why the hell would I want to endanger him like that? If he dies, would it be my fault? If we truly have the power to stop global warming with our thoughts (which no, I don't really believe), then how is it my thoughts can't keep my family healthy?

SR does not mean you can transform your reality just as you please.

SR means that you can transform your reality just as you please, to the degree and extent that you possess awareness, control and discipline over your own mind.

Most people have no inkling of how little control they have, over their own minds.

[Angela]

What ALG said. And I'm very sorry for the pain your grandpa's illness is causing you and your family.

Originally Posted by Elfwing

IBut I genuinely do want to believe.

You genuinely want to believe what, exactly?

[Elfwing]

Originally Posted by Angela

You genuinely want to believe what, exactly?

I feel silly for saying this - but control. Not just over myself, but potentially surroundings to a certain extent (but not, obviously, people). That there is a "dreamer" that is sending me signs that this is just a dream. It would be very comforting to know the world isn't as bad a place as it often looks.

[Angela]

Sweetness, I know it's scary sometimes, but you are loved.

[cylon]

This is why SR can be so unsettling, at first.

Basically it's like saying "all the good stuff that happens in my life, I want that to be a dream. I want everything good that happens to me to be 100% my responsibility."

Yet when it's something that we don't like, soon we want chance and fate and and randomness to come back into the picture. At that point we don't want to accept the responsibility. It's a have your cake and eat it too deal.

It's tough, I feel the same way often. Who would want to have the experience of someone they care about suffering? I can't answer that. I just know that 100% responsibility is just that, 100%.

Is it any wonder people react so harshly to the concept of SR? And it's not just because of the suffering of others. People want "other people" to be separate from them, because if they aren't, then maybe they've been "robbed" of their individuality which sounds like a crime.

And the funny thing about that is, when people have mystical experiences, they usually feel that "All is one". They feel the best when those barriers seem to vanish.

When you're feeling good, it actually feels GREAT that we're all one, and that there is no real "individuality" strictly speaking because we aren't separate. Oneness, unity. Most people of a spiritual bent usually enjoy those feelings.

Yet when the ego gets involved, it all changes. What felt so good naturally before is now some weird state of consciousness to be avoided. Isn't it funny that the thing that felt so good and right (we're all one) in one moment becomes the very thing you are terrified of and want to not be true in the next?

The best I can say is that you need to unconditionally love and accept yourself and "others". Whether something good or bad happens in your awareness, you most likely aren't doing it on purpose, and besides, it's coming from a state of consciousness so far removed from ordinary ego awareness that you wouldn't be able to explain how you created the situations in your life even if you wanted to.

So on this journey don't be too hard on yourself.

[Richard_Todd]

Originally Posted by Elfwing

Because why the hell would I want to make him sick? Why the hell would I want to endanger him like that?

This is one of the more difficult parts of SR, but the same problems come up in all religions and philosophies... it's really just a matter of window-dressing how it's presented. So the silver lining of difficult situations like the one you are in is that it can really help you decide what resonates with you as "the truth" and what doesn't.

I would venture to guess that the root of the issue here is that you haven't embraced the transpersonal nature of the SR philosophy. In SR, there is no grandfather separate from you that you gave a stroke to. You are both aspects of the same consciousness. If part of that consciousness presents itself to your ego as ailing, it is not the fault of the ego. Rather, it enters your ego's life for your benefit.

Consider this: In a sleeping dream, unexpected stuff happens. Stuff that you don't enjoy happens. And, that all came from you... you could say, "why the hell would I want to dream about my teeth falling out?" But that doesn't change the fact that: (1) you did dream it, (2) the character in the dream isn't actually you, and (3) all of it can be seen as a vehicle to learn about yourself and your preferences regarding your future manifestations (assuming you slowly learn how to direct those manifestations consciously).

I hope this helps.

[ButterflyWoman]

Originally Posted by cylon

Whether something good or bad happens in your awareness, you most likely aren't doing it on purpose, and besides, it's coming from a state of consciousness so far removed from ordinary ego awareness that you wouldn't be able to explain how you created the situations in your life even if you wanted to.

Very well written. I'm loving pretty much everything you write these days, cylon. Your awesomeness is, well, awesome. I guess maybe "awesome cylon is awesome". Thank you.

I wanted to add that part of the problem are the labels of "good" and "bad". When X happens, it is "bad", but when Y happens, it is "good". But is it? If you can loosen your attachment to ideas like that, you'll find that the flow of... well, everything, really, is much more satisfying. When you start to give up the judgments (and yes, they are judgments) and the attitude that everything has to be measured and compared and labelled, it's a lot easier to live with the concept that you might actually be the centre of your own reality for real.

Certainly, there are things we enjoy more than other things, I'm not saying that this should or even can stop, but with practice and deliberate noticing of our own judgments about, well, pretty much everything, we can learn to "reframe" events outside of the automatic knee-jerk reactions we might have had in place. Good, bad, whatever. It is what it is, and unless there's some compelling reason to put a label on it, it's probably better not to do so.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by CaterpillarWoman

Very well written. I'm loving pretty much everything you write these days, cylon. Your awesomeness is, well, awesome. I guess maybe "awesome cylon is awesome". Thank you.

Lol, thanks. That's kind of awesome.

I agree with you about labeling things. That's exactly where my mind is right now, I want to explore more of what happens when the labels are removed. Things seem to work easier, I know that much.

[InThisTogether]

I found Steve's blog a little over a year ago through a link, I think it was a series of links that started with Wayne Dyer. I've been a fan of his for many years. I enjoyed going back through Steve's articles and especially enjoyed the wide range of topics, from the logical and systematic to the more esoteric and "out there" stuff. I've found the more recent articles less engaging until this latest SR series. This is very cool. Enjoyed the Canada trip though as I live just outside Toronto. It's cool to get a perspective on your home from a visitor. What I've found most inspring about Steve's work is his willingness to be "out there", warts and all if you will. I've related to his struggles with religion and to a lesser degree, struggled with setting limits of "right" and "wrong" after shedding the dictatorship of the the church and parents. My athiest period ended with the birth of my first child. As I gazed on him in his cradle, I knew the world was too big and dangerous a place for me to be able to protect him on my own. I found myself praying to the God I didn't believe in to keep watch and keep him safe. I've since some to a different understanding of God from the one I grew up with. I prefer the "force" or "collective conscious" or "dreamer" view to the paternalistic old man in the sky. It's Elfwing's post about her grandfather that inspired me to register and participate. So I think I'll go there. Thanks Steve for a year of inspiring reading.

[InThisTogether]

"Because why the hell would I want to make him sick? Why the hell would I want to endanger him like that? If he dies, would it be my fault? If we truly have the power to stop global warming with our thoughts (which no, I don't really believe), then how is it my thoughts can't keep my family healthy?"

Elfwing, it's your post above that inspired me to register and participate. I've taken the SR approach to life for a long time, though not really immersed my self in the dream - dreamer analogy as this experment suggests. When I decided to partipate in this, to see what it would be like, the first thing that came to me was exactly your question.

My mother died of cancer almost exactly 6 years ago. I've wondered if I thought about her illness differently at the time, could I have affected the outcome, might she still be here? Here is where my search has taken me.

Though the dream analogy is helpful in terms of relating to the world around you on a day to day basis, I've heard the "collective conscious" described in a different way that I've also found helpful. Think of the whole of consciousness as the ocean. It's vast and deep and powerful. Each one of us is like a glass of water from the ocean. We are everything that the ocean is but we've chosen to separate our selves out from that so that we can move around and experience things that the vastness of the ocean could not experience. Yet we are still part of the whole. So if a stone falls in the ocean somewhere far away, we feel the ripple. Now if you take that back to the dreamer analogy, the dreamer is one vast, deep consciousness that has chosen to fragment itself into individual characters so that it can walk around and experience things that pure consciousness could not experience. Things like the succulent flavour of your favourite meal, the feeling of your toes in the grass, making love, and yes, the pain of illness and loss. Because it's against the foil of the pain that we are able to experience joy. Once one of the dreamers characters has completed it's experiential journey, it will decide that it's time to integrate back with the dreamer. That's not good or bad Elfwing, it just is. To say that something is your fault is to label is as bad. Your grandfather is not in any danger.

I'm truly sorry your are experiencing this pain Elwing, because it is painful. If the part of you that is your grandfather decides to stay a while longer, it will likely be because of the love that you provide. If he decides that his experience is over and it's time to go back to the whole of consciousness it's because he's completed his journey and he knows your love is there too, because there really is no difference between here and there, it's just perception. He's part of you and always will be. Love to you...

[SlicK]

Because why the hell would I want to make him sick?

Didn't you ever have nightmares?

Yesterday I had a bad day with a lot of stress and fights. At the end of the day I have realized that I felt like sh... and then it hit me that I wasn't feeling like that because I had a bad day.. I had a bad day because I felt like that. I have remembered that I woke up feeling like that.

[MidasGirl]

Elfwing, have you ever lucid dreamed? When you are lucid dreaming, and you dream that a person in your dream is dying, then you are usually not afraid, right? Why, because you KNOW it's a dream, it's not real, and you'll wake up and realize this is all a dream.

Well, the problem with SR as humans is the ability (read curse) to oscilate between SR and objective world. If you know you are dreaming your grandfather as dying, then you would know neither did you cause it nor is he ACTUALLY dying. There is no death in SR, but of course the "reality" of death jolts us mercilessly into objective reality, because it is the ultimate illusion.

[MidasGirl]

Also, to add, what I'm getting from you is that you "get" SR from a mind perspective but not from a "living it" perspective. That can be pretty daunting, because there's a disconnect between your intellect and your Infinite self.

[JeffistheAnswer]

Originally Posted by InThisTogether

"Because why the hell would I want to make him sick? Why the hell would I want to endanger him like that? If he dies, would it be my fault? If we truly have the power to stop global warming with our thoughts (which no, I don't really believe), then how is it my thoughts can't keep my family healthy?"

Elfwing, it's your post above that inspired me to register and participate. I've taken the SR approach to life for a long time, though not really immersed my self in the dream - dreamer analogy as this experment suggests. When I decided to partipate in this, to see what it would be like, the first thing that came to me was exactly your question.

My mother died of cancer almost exactly 6 years ago. I've wondered if I thought about her illness differently at the time, could I have affected the outcome, might she still be here? Here is where my search has taken me.

Though the dream analogy is helpful in terms of relating to the world around you on a day to day basis, I've heard the "collective conscious" described in a different way that I've also found helpful. Think of the whole of consciousness as the ocean. It's vast and deep and powerful. Each one of us is like a glass of water from the ocean. We are everything that the ocean is but we've chosen to separate our selves out from that so that we can move around and experience things that the vastness of the ocean could not experience. Yet we are still part of the whole. So if a stone falls in the ocean somewhere far away, we feel the ripple. Now if you take that back to the dreamer analogy, the dreamer is one vast, deep consciousness that has chosen to fragment itself into individual characters so that it can walk around and experience things that pure consciousness could not experience. Things like the succulent flavour of your favourite meal, the feeling of your toes in the grass, making love, and yes, the pain of illness and loss. Because it's against the foil of the pain that we are able to experience joy. Once one of the dreamers characters has completed it's experiential journey, it will decide that it's time to integrate back with the dreamer. That's not good or bad Elfwing, it just is. To say that something is your fault is to label is as bad. Your grandfather is not in any danger.

I'm truly sorry your are experiencing this pain Elwing, because it is painful. If the part of you that is your grandfather decides to stay a while longer, it will likely be because of the love that you provide. If he decides that his experience is over and it's time to go back to the whole of consciousness it's because he's completed his journey and he knows your love is there too, because there really is no difference between here and there, it's just perception. He's part of you and always will be. Love to you...

Oh wow. This is a beautiful post.