Why Subjective Reality Is Delusional IMO

[zenrealized]

OK first off my first point is that everything is based in information. Every single thing around you whether physical or non physical is based in information. Consider this, even if there were no universe at all the one thing that would always exist is information. The fact that there is nothing is still information.

So anyway now that I have gotten the entire substance of the universe to it's lowest level I will show you how if you build up from that singular fact of information existing no matter what that you end up developing our current reality and the elimination of a subjective reality as separate from physical reality. Since information exists from both perspectives how we perceive that information has no basis in reality. All our lenses for our perception are influenced by the physical processes and mental value systems that we create to interpret it.

If Steve goes to Costco and has an urge to purchase wine that choice to purchase the wine is contained in him trying to have different choices because he is actively participating in a subjective reality experiment.

Our imagination of what is possible is in fact possible. If for example we imagine a dragon that breathes fire in our mind that dragon exists and can be created by someone who had enough information to do it. Every possible scenario that we can imagine unless paradoxical is possible.

What is really interesting is when you consider why certain things don't exist. Why isn't the entire Universe made out of water? If you consider how many obstacles stand in the way to complex forms of information it's amazing that they even exist at all.

Consider evolution. The ultimate paradox for science is this. If evolution is true what would human society be like in a million years with our current level of progress? If chip speeds are doubling every two years it seems like we would eventually have a Terminator like scenario where we build something that really is smarter than us. Scientists estimate that the Singularity will happen within 100 years maximum. My point is that if evolution is true doesn't it eventually reach maximum information optimization? Considering that the Universe is billions of years old doesn't it make sense for something to have gotten to that point?

What I'm saying is that maybe objective reality is the only reality because nothing on this planet is more intelligent than us. That reality has to be true because if it weren't we would have been killed by it already. Our complexity means that we are the only beings on this planet that is aware that there even is a reality.

Let's consider a way an entity could be smarter than us to test this theory. Well it could have more than one brain. Picture a million human beings thinking at the same time yet having an awareness of what all of them were thinking at once. So let's say these million people decide to build a house. Well with their separate brains they would be able to build the house instantly.

Information exists in both realities and all physical matter is information down to the smallest particle. Time doesn't exit it only appears to exist because our brain is never the same physical form. Every second of every day neurons are firing and memories are being created which changes the state of your mind making it a different physical object. Brain cells are dieing. Time is matter changing from one form to another. There is no time. If forces didn't alter each other nothing would ever change and would be timeless. The only reason that time exists is because of the space between the the different physical phases of the state of our brain matter. Our conciousness is the updated awareness of those changes and an update of the new state of our reality. Every single thing we do is a means to increase the enjoyment of the passing of time because we have no other choice besides dieing which is an end to that passing of time. Trying to find a purpose for why we have to experience this passage of time and then not experience it abruptly through death has led many people to seek a higher power.

So if evolution leads to power over matter it leads to power over time too. If an entity has figured out a way to live forever maybe it has figured out how to make other things live forever. To extend the consciousness forever and to truly enter a subjective reality. This path leads to faith that something or someone is looking out for us or knows we are here. The only way it doesn't is if we can't imagine something smarter than ourselves.

[lucybrown]

Originally Posted by zenrealized

This path leads to faith that something or someone is looking out for us or knows we are here. The only way it doesn't is if we can't imagine something smarter than ourselves.

I love this post, it makes perfect sense.
Do you believe that the something or someone that is looking out for us is god/higher being?

[lucybrown]

I meant to say I loved all of the post not just the quote I highlighted.

[escapeplan]

Zen, Your post reminds me of the ontological argument which while logically is hard to debunk, doesn't "feel" right. From an objective point of view, I'd really love to know (and Steve has touched on this before) why our specific awareness is attached to our minds/ body. If I knew that then the objective outlook would make a lot more sense- without it I see no real reason for dismissing a subjective approach.

[Piercetheveil]

Originally Posted by escapeplan

Zen, Your post reminds me of the ontological argument which while logically is hard to debunk, doesn't "feel" right. From an objective point of view, I'd really love to know (and Steve has touched on this before) why our specific awareness is attached to our minds/ body. If I knew that then the objective outlook would make a lot more sense- without it I see no real reason for dismissing a subjective approach.

You said approach. If it is approach then it is not at beginning. Therefore it is a lense. A way. One of many.

SR is a belief. Belief is structure. I myself hold to structures when I can not destroy them. I have structures of reality. They do not restrict themselves to one way. I find no need to have to embrace one path.

The one thing I do know is that I am involved in a string of passing moments. Outside of that it is guesswork. The better my guesses the more accurately I can move through life. Awake and without slaps.

[zenrealized]

Originally Posted by lucybrown

I love this post, it makes perfect sense.
Do you believe that the something or someone that is looking out for us is god/higher being?

I believe that this reality is an objective reality on purpose possibly as a test. Our imaginations are unbounded by limitations but our willingness to hold ourselves to noble principles is being tested. In a subjective reality there would be no constraints and therefore the effort required to solve problems would not be an effort at all. It would also be instant. How would that be a test if it were that easy?

I think everything points to our purpose being to find out for ourselves why certain ways of being lead to the best possible outcome. If I were God how else would I know if I wanted to be friends with someone unless I allowed them to have the choice to make their own decisions and figure it out for themselves.

If someone offers to let you live in their house and you break all their stuff how could you ever get them out of your house if you never told them what the rules were before they came in?

So yes our suffering is a test of our character and I believe in God. I think it's about time we all showed God what we are capable of. Let's make Dad proud!!!!

[Piercetheveil]

Originally Posted by zenrealized

So yes our suffering is a test of our character and I believe in God.

If you hold a belief in G-d (Defining that would be interesting) how do you hold information at <root> level? Unless you define G-d as information or cause information then it becomes an issue of infinity backward.

The G-d thing is more scaffolding to me. I let go of that one prior a full view (like Steve's) of needing subjective reality as a one choice workable model.

Beliefs are shed. I enjoy watching them fall off.

[zenrealized]

Originally Posted by Piercetheveil

If you hold a belief in G-d (Defining that would be interesting) how do you hold information at <root> level? Unless you define G-d as information or cause information then it becomes an issue of infinity backward.

The G-d thing is more scaffolding to me. I let go of that one prior a full view (like Steve's) of needing subjective reality as a one choice workable model.

Beliefs are shed. I enjoy watching them fall off.

God is information with perfect execution. God is intelligence maximized just like a black hole is matter maximized. God is the ultimate poker player.
God is the Alpha and Omega He always was and IS just like information has always been here so has He. He is the personification of possibility and that possibility is the possibility of The Infinite.

[Piercetheveil]

Originally Posted by zenrealized

God is information with perfect execution. God is intelligence maximized just like a black hole is matter maximized. God is the ultimate poker player.
God is the Alpha and Omega He always was and IS just like information has always been here so has He. He is the personification of possibility and that possibility is the possibility of The Infinite.

Sounds like a non-personal non Christian view of G-d unless you connect the two. In that case we have the same one...only I do not label it as G-d nor he. Just mystery dontknowness. This G-d would never need to be anything but data and sure as hell would not have ego to garner power and worship. (However, if HE--male?--executes then he is above information)

Now, back to the delusional statement...Though Steve certainly does not care, how is it that SR people get labeled as Delusional but people that sing Trust and Obey every sunday to a kiddo born of a virgin who G-d banged get a free pass?

I do not think either group is delusional.

I also do not hold either view. But I did.

[zenrealized]

Originally Posted by Piercetheveil

Sounds like a non-personal non Christian view of G-d unless you connect the two. In that case we have the same one...only I do not label it as G-d nor he. Just mystery dontknowness. This G-d would never need to be anything but data and sure as hell would not have ego to garner power and worship. (However, if HE--male?--executes then he is above information)

Now, back to the delusional statement...Though Steve certainly does not care, how is it that SR people get labeled as Delusional but people that sing Trust and Obey every Sunday to a kiddo born of a virgin who G-d banged get a free pass?

I do not think either group is delusional.

I also do not hold either view. But I did.

Well let's consider this. If someone calls SR delusional and they are wrong it's an opinion. If God exists and you don't have enough respect to even type out his full game it shows you aren't humble enough to even consider the possibility that you are wrong. You do this by not typing out the full name. So you can say all you want but you know what? The reason God would garner power and worship is that it's not a garnering for power and worship in the way you are thinking of it. It's a demand for respect. If God does exist I assure you that you will bow.

[Piercetheveil]

Originally Posted by zenrealized

Well let's consider this. If someone calls SR delusional and they are wrong it's an opinion. If God exists and you don't have enough respect to even type out his full game it shows you aren't humble enough to even consider the possibility that you are wrong. You do this by not typing out the full name. So you can say all you want but you know what? The reason God would garner power and worship is that it's not a garnering for power and worship in the way you are thinking of it. It's a demand for respect. If God does exist I assure you that you will bow.

Ahhh...this is VERY interesting. Maybe an ah ha moment for you. That your perceptions are not always accurate. Maybe rarely. The reason I do not always spell out the G-d name is actually a very high form of respect. I will leave it to you to figure out why. And I do not even hold a belief. I do it for those few that do that have humility and non black and white worlds. It is a hat tip of sorts. So, they know that I know. Easy killer.

So, okay, you do believe in the Personal G-d with judgement day and all. Then he is not information. He created information in that view. Gotcha.

And if I am wrong about G-d existing then depending on which one exists it is just an opinion too.

[lucybrown]

Originally Posted by zenrealized

So yes our suffering is a test of our character and I believe in God. I think it's about time we all showed God what we are capable of. Let's make Dad proud!!!!

I thought that that is what you were getting at and I'm glad that you gave that answer. I also believe in god/a higher being call it what you like. I don't believe in organised religions at all nor do I read or believe in the bible.

We don't need to go to a church to believe in god/higher being, we all have a direct line to him/it. I think that god/higher being already exists in us all. There is no reason to keep chasing your tail trying all sorts of silly experiments only to finally come to that realisation. Everyone will get there eventually but I guess we all have to do it in our own way.

[zenrealized]

Originally Posted by Piercetheveil

Ahhh...this is VERY interesting. Maybe an ah ha moment for you. That your perceptions are not always accurate. Maybe rarely. The reason I do not always spell out the G-d name is actually a very high form of respect. I will leave it to you to figure out why. And I do not even hold a belief. I do it for those few that do that have humility and non black and white worlds. It is a hat tip of sorts. So, they know that I know. Easy killer.

So, okay, you do believe in the Personal G-d with judgment day and all. Then he is not information. He created information in that view. Gotcha.

And if I am wrong about G-d existing then depending on which one exists it is just an opinion too.

There's nothing to gain from your perspective don't you see that? Don't you realize how long eternity is? You think that murderers and rapists take those actions because they aren't looking for the easy way out? Those are the actions of selfishness. All the stuff that we call bad is based in selfishness. All the stuff you are saying makes your eighty plus years a little better for you. You're so worried about you missing out on your ego and you're stuck inside your head. Common sense would give you the answer that doing the most selfless things is the path. The reason is because it's the farthest path from selfishness. It's the farthest path from murder and short sightedness. God crushed and destroyed because the people never learned to stop thinking about themselves. Just like your anger and mocking right now is done with malice is the same way they acted in their behavior.

God doesn't need worship. He doesn't need anything. What he wants is something he can't create. He wants you to make the choice to love Him. These are my opinions and conclusions and the reason I can understand them is I tried to imagine what I would want if I were God. I guess I would want friends that cared about me. In order to know if that they really cared I would have to see if they could find me in my creations and through my work. That faith would be proof that I had a real friend. I would gain as much as I gave away.

[Piercetheveil]

Originally Posted by zenrealized

There's nothing to gain from your perspective don't you see that? Don't you realize how long eternity is? You think that murderers and rapists take those actions because they aren't looking for the easy way out? Those are the actions of selfishness. All the stuff that we call bad is based in selfishness. All the stuff you are saying makes your eighty plus years a little better for you. You're so worried about you missing out on your ego and you're stuck inside your head. Common sense would give you the answer that doing the most selfless things is the path. The reason is because it's the farthest path from selfishness. It's the farthest path from murder and short sightedness. God crushed and destroyed because the people never learned to stop thinking about themselves. Just like your anger and mocking right now is done with malice is the same way they acted in their behavior.

God doesn't need worship. He doesn't need anything. What he wants is something he can't create. He wants you to make the choice to love Him. These are my opinions and conclusions and the reason I can understand them is I tried to imagine what I would want if I were God. I guess I would want friends that cared about me. In order to know if that they really cared I would have to see if they could find me in my creations and through my work. That faith would be proof that I had a real friend. I would gain as much as I gave away.

1=Not spelling out the name of G-d comes from the Jews. (I spent my college years and a following decade in youth ministry knee deep in translation theory and Hebrew/Greek). It might deepen your 'awe' factor by reading about the name alone. It did mine.

2-I was not mocking. I was having conversation. Taking interest. Asking questions. I do not believe I specified you as anything but holding a different view from me. I stated that I thought it not delusional but a belief and encouraged the same attitude toward SR folks.

3-You do not know me well enough to know what I worry about (very little) or if I get stuck in my head with that worry (I do not).

I enjoyed your direction of your Original Post. The G-d view needs to be tweaked to be congruent.

Maybe if I were female you would be less apt to be so fang showing ;P. Why so serious son?

[zenrealized]

Originally Posted by Piercetheveil

1=Not spelling out the name of G-d comes from the Jews. (I spent my college years and a following decade in youth ministry knee deep in translation theory and Hebrew/Greek). It might deepen your 'awe' factor by reading about the name alone. It did mine.

2-I was not mocking. I was having conversation. Taking interest. Asking questions. I do not believe I specified you as anything but holding a different view from me. I stated that I thought it not delusional but a belief and encouraged the same attitude toward SR folks.

3-You do not know me well enough to know what I worry about (very little) or if I get stuck in my head with that worry (I do not).

I enjoyed your direction of your Original Post. The G-d view needs to be tweaked to be congruent.

Maybe if I were female you would be less apt to be so fang showing ;P. Why so serious son?

I've been up all night playing poker and am tired. I apologize I will research the G-D thing more as I wasn't even aware of that. Have a good day.

[Piercetheveil]

Hope you scored big! Get some sleep. Talk atcha later on...

[zenrealized]

Originally Posted by Piercetheveil

Hope you scored big! Get some sleep. Talk atcha later on...

Yeah I did well. My sleep schedule is so messed up. I just woke up, lol at 9 pm eastern time. That's pretty bad.

[darksage]

Originally Posted by zenrealized

I believe that this reality is an objective reality on purpose possibly as a test. Our imaginations are unbounded by limitations but our willingness to hold ourselves to noble principles is being tested. In a subjective reality there would be no constraints and therefore the effort required to solve problems would not be an effort at all. It would also be instant. How would that be a test if it were that easy?

Thanks lol, I kept calling my doubts and missteps tests, LOL wow im a noobie. Saved this along with some other good posts.

[Mounds]

I read through this post fairly quickly so I probably didn't catch the full gist.
ZR, at first I thought you were arguing against creation/God. Later on in the posts, I picked up that you are saying there is a higher power. Can that exist in objective reality?

[pjhaggerty]

Originally Posted by zenrealized

There's nothing to gain from your perspective don't you see that? Don't you realize how long eternity is? You think that murderers and rapists take those actions because they aren't looking for the easy way out? Those are the actions of selfishness. All the stuff that we call bad is based in selfishness. All the stuff you are saying makes your eighty plus years a little better for you. You're so worried about you missing out on your ego and you're stuck inside your head. Common sense would give you the answer that doing the most selfless things is the path. The reason is because it's the farthest path from selfishness. It's the farthest path from murder and short sightedness. God crushed and destroyed because the people never learned to stop thinking about themselves. Just like your anger and mocking right now is done with malice is the same way they acted in their behavior.

God doesn't need worship. He doesn't need anything. What he wants is something he can't create. He wants you to make the choice to love Him. These are my opinions and conclusions and the reason I can understand them is I tried to imagine what I would want if I were God. I guess I would want friends that cared about me. In order to know if that they really cared I would have to see if they could find me in my creations and through my work. That faith would be proof that I had a real friend. I would gain as much as I gave away.

It only pleases the selfish for the selfless to be so. Who will enjoy the toils of the selfless if all are selfless? all would merely pass along their joy to the selfish. Selfishness is inherent in humans and by itself is neither bad nor good, it merely is the way humans must be. If you weren't selfish, who would insure you were fed? who would insure you were hydrated?

[zenrealized]

Originally Posted by Mounds

I read through this post fairly quickly so I probably didn't catch the full gist.
ZR, at first I thought you were arguing against creation/God. Later on in the posts, I picked up that you are saying there is a higher power. Can that exist in objective reality?

I think it's inevitable in this particular objective reality. If the universe were empty the complexity of the information would never be high enough in the objective reality for an entity like us within it to evolve information to the point where they can make their reality subjective. I picture it like a threshold of combinations of information eventually result in enough power where everything you dream about is possible if you wanted to create it.

The thing is though I don't think you can get a subjective reality through an objective reality unless it was created in a subjective reality. All realities lead to the same thing. That makes me conclude that the base fundamental thing that always exists in both realities is information and possibility. Because information exists no matter what the complexity of that information creates the resulting combinations of specified information because somewhere they exist. That random combination of what is possible makes the source of everything inherent and it's manifestation in the physical objective reality that we see are the separations in space of the combinations of that possibility.

[Bradshaw]

The thing is, taking on a subjective reality perspective still works. It still brings results when you act as if everything is a dream. Delusional? Maybe, but if it works...

Still, I feel that Steve's subjective reality perspective is not 100% truth, but truth is relative anyway. SR is pretty close, but I feel there is something missing that would lead to greater joy, I'm just not quite sure what it is.

[zenrealized]

Originally Posted by Bradshaw

The thing is, taking on a subjective reality perspective still works. It still brings results when you act as if everything is a dream. Delusional? Maybe, but if it works...

Still, I feel that Steve's subjective reality perspective is not 100% truth, but truth is relative anyway. SR is pretty close, but I feel there is something missing that would lead to greater joy, I'm just not quite sure what it is.

What is missing is asking for permission to alter the objective reality subjectively. If this reality is the subjective dream of a super powerful entity in order to change or influence it subjectively you would need permission from the source of it.

[Piercetheveil]

The Multiverse According to Ben: Objective versus subjective reality: Which is primary?

[Mounds]

Originally Posted by zenrealized

I think it's inevitable in this particular objective reality. If the universe were empty the complexity of the information would never be high enough in the objective reality for an entity like us within it to evolve information to the point where they can make their reality subjective. I picture it like a threshold of combinations of information eventually result in enough power where everything you dream about is possible if you wanted to create it.

The thing is though I don't think you can get a subjective reality through an objective reality unless it was created in a subjective reality. All realities lead to the same thing. That makes me conclude that the base fundamental thing that always exists in both realities is information and possibility. Because information exists no matter what the complexity of that information creates the resulting combinations of specified information because somewhere they exist. That random combination of what is possible makes the source of everything inherent and it's manifestation in the physical objective reality that we see are the separations in space of the combinations of that possibility.

Your not saying that a higher power would have to exist by default, are you? I don't quite follow what your saying.

[zenrealized]

Originally Posted by Mounds

Your not saying that a higher power would have to exist by default, are you? I don't quite follow what your saying.

Yes I am saying that.

[Mounds]

Originally Posted by zenrealized

Yes I am saying that.

Hmm. Well, I guess I disagree then

[zenrealized]

Originally Posted by Mounds

Hmm. Well, I guess I disagree then

Any reason?

[Mounds]

IMO, there really is no evidence of a higher power in an objective reality. Like, absolutely nothing. The idea of a higher power was born in a time when people had no other explanation for what was happening around them. They craved that explanation though and so the idea of a higher power was born.

The idea of "A and B are true, therefore C must be true" is not good enough for me.

In a subjective reality, pretty much anything goes. The only subjective reality I've ever experienced though is the one I visit when I go to sleep at night (the one in my brain )

-Tim

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Mounds

The idea of a higher power was born in a time when people had no other explanation for what was happening around them. hey craved that explanation though and so the idea of a higher power was born.

I used to think that way. That's the elitism of the modern scholar speaking. What you are completely leaving out is the possibility that people had sensed God. Had direct Revelation. You're assuming that all experience is in the intellect. What you aren't considering is that people may have used stories and myth to attempt explain a real phenomenon they were experiencing, that happens to be way beyond any sort of description.

Human wisdom and intelligence didn't only start with the 20th century.