Steve, perhaps this is taboo or inappropriate

[cortocabezas1111]

but have you ever eaten magic mushrooms? If not, I truly think a session would be highly beneficial to your deepening of your subjective reality experiment.

[Savage]

No. People have suggested it from time to time, but real life seems to be wild enough that I don't feel inspired to try such substances.

[Theobinomy]

What a strange concept, eating the mushrooms. Generally they have been thought of to be part of an initiatory or thereputic nature, and only when ready. I do see value in the expanded consciouesness but its best admistered to those that are well prepared and by those that know how to couch them through the experiance. Mushrooms can be fun, too, but I'm not ready for the worlds psyche to go there.

[KaleidoskopicVision]

I'd definitely read a blog about your experience with psychedelics, Steve.

I assure you they defy expectation

[carenkh]

Psychedelics offer a weak imitation of real life experiences, if you're living subjectively. Why take something "mind-expanding" if your mind is already there?

I'm reminded of the story of Ram Dass giving Maharaji many hits of LSD, and the drugs having no effect on Maharaji at all. He was already high, he didn't need to get high.

I have a feeling drugs would affect Steve, but I don't think he needs the experience - he's living it!

[crasch]

[Note, I'm not trying to change Steve's mind, just expressing my own opinion for others who may be considering taking psychedelics.]

I haven't tried mushrooms yet, but I've found my experiences with LSD to be quite valuable. For the first time, I experienced what people mean when they say they feel lat one with the universe. The sense of time dilation (where minutes seem like hours) is fascinating.

The colors and sounds you see while on the drug are quite beautiful. (Suddenly, the aesthetics of the 60's made a whole lot more sense, especially the popularity of paisley).

Long term, it made me feel more empathetic towards other people. If my perception of reality can be so wildly altered by a few micrograms of a drug, it seems plausible that other people might perceive the world very different from me. And if that's the case, no wonder they disagree with me, or pursue paths that seem foolish to me. It also made me realize that reality is probably a lot more malleable than I once thought.

Excepting those with a history of mental illness, I would recommend that everyone try it at least once.

[Jonathan Browne]

Comon steve, what are you scared of... Go a little deeper down the rabit hole with some shrooms ;-)

[jayh]

Can't help but chime in here - This not something I would normally put on a public forum, but I felt inspired to do it...

I once tried mushrooms (not the "fresh" kind with two active drugs, but some dried ones which supposedly give a milder effect)

While the visual effects were interesting, I personally experienced no mind expanding... It was actually quite unpleasant, and I was glad when it finally wore off.

Keep in mind at the time, I was smoking a lot of marijuana, which I do feel aided me in the expansion of my mind to a certain degree. I don't touch the stuff any more though, and haven't in over 20 years.

In hindsight, would I do it again? I don't really know. I think at the time it was something I needed to experience, but I also wouldn't go as far as recommending it to someone else - especially in the name of expanding your mind. I think that should be a personal choice anyway...

[Carl Carlson IV]

I too am extremely thankful for the experiences I've had with psychedelics. Altered states of consciousness are truly amazing. Although it may have been the start of my path to spiritual enlightenment, it won't be the same for everyone. I look at it as a "jump start" into this realm and recommend it for people who want to sneak a peak. I honestly believe that any sane mind, in a comfortable setting, with the right mindset would find a psychedelic experience to be knowledgeable and joyful.

I have since learned that it is possible to have similar experiences without the use of mind altering substances. It may be more difficult, but still possible. For those who are unwilling or unable to learn the techniques through meditation or otherwise, psychedelics are a useful tool.

There are also other means you can use, such as sensory deprivation which can be achieved in many ways. Flotation/isolation tanks are becoming more common in the US.

[KaleidoskopicVision]

Originally Posted by carenkh

Psychedelics offer a weak imitation of real life experiences, if you're living subjectively. Why take something "mind-expanding" if your mind is already there?

I'm reminded of the story of Ram Dass giving Maharaji many hits of LSD, and the drugs having no effect on Maharaji at all. He was already high, he didn't need to get high.

I have a feeling drugs would affect Steve, but I don't think he needs the experience - he's living it!

Clearly you've never taken a psychedelic. Also that story of Ram Dass giving Maharaji hits of lsd comes with a great deal of assumption on your part. The drug may very well have affected Maharaji, but rather than reacting astonished he went into it like he would go into any other experience. Peacefully, with a hint of a smile. Nowhere in that experience did Maharaji say "Hey Ram, this isn't doing anything!". As I recall he didn't say anything at all.

To say that LSD had no effect on Maharaji because he was already high doesn't make sense to me. LSD causes intricate neurochemical changes in the brain. The chemical interacts with 5 separate receptor sites (all serotonin sub-receptors) and excites a location in the cerebral cortex. Rather than believing Maharaji already was experiencing an LSD trip without the LSD (possible if you want to believe in magic but unlikely considering the parameters of neuropharmacology) I believe and maintain that what happened was Maharaji was in a state of consciousness where he was able to calmly flow into the LSD experience without excitement, agitation or an otherwise profoundly mood altering reaction because he was already at peace with that aspect of the brain and personality, being adept at meditation.

That LSD interacts with the cerebral cortex (commonly known as the grey matter of the brain) is fascinating, as this is the newest part of the brain in human evolution. That LSD is interacting with it means it may be having a direct effect on the growth and development of the person taking the substance, hence the early and now disproven hypothesis that it causes chromosomal damage. Research has shown that this effect is mostly subjective (that magic word again!) and can be modulated by introspective work, psychotherapy etc.

What LSD 'does' to the grey matter is still somewhat of a mystery to neuropharmacologists. They know enough that it poses no neurochemical threat and that mental illness triggered by it is a result of latent potential, rather than induced by the drug itself.

Personally, I like to take my subjective reality with a grain of science. I'm not going to just brush off years of perfectly reasonable and reliable neurochemical research in favor of an anecdote from Ram Dass, or for a misapplication of subjective reality.

I'd also like to add that not all highs are created equal.

And that I don't think Steve seeks out the experiences he does out of necessity. Otherwise he'd be just another average joe trying to pull the survival shtick. Seems to me that Steve seeks out novel opportunities so that he can grow and learn from them. But he already said he's not interested, so this is just water over the bridge.

[KaleidoskopicVision]

Originally Posted by Carl Carlson IV

I too am extremely thankful for the experiences I've had with psychedelics. Altered states of consciousness are truly amazing. Although it may have been the start of my path to spiritual enlightenment, it won't be the same for everyone. I look at it as a "jump start" into this realm and recommend it for people who want to sneak a peak. I honestly believe that any sane mind, in a comfortable setting, with the right mindset would find a psychedelic experience to be knowledgeable and joyful.

I have since learned that it is possible to have similar experiences without the use of mind altering substances. It may be more difficult, but still possible. For those who are unwilling or unable to learn the techniques through meditation or otherwise, psychedelics are a useful tool.

There are also other means you can use, such as sensory deprivation which can be achieved in many ways. Flotation/isolation tanks are becoming more common in the US.

I think the temptation to say you can do the same thing LSD does unaided is a large one, often indulged by people who don't know just how intricate the brain is. To presume that you could synthesize LSD molecules within the body, direct serotonin molecules to 5 specific sub receptors and initiate the complex activation process of the sympathetic neurons to achieve the same thing taking LSD does sounds unlikely to say the least. People have enough trouble controlling anger and addiction without trying to do something impossible by the standards of neuroscience.

Edit: It seems the temptation to indulge in this gross exaggeration is prevalent in the psychiatric fields as well, as indicated by this article comparing sensory deprivation with LSD Out of LSD? Just 15 Minutes of Sensory Deprivation Triggers Hallucinations | Wired Science | Wired.com they then go on to say cannabis is a psychosis inducing drug, lumping it in right next to ketamine. Even most of academia is still riding the short bus when it comes to ASC(altered states of consciousness). Don't believe everything you read on the internet, folks. I understand the average person's desire to lump all altered states of consciousness into a general and easy to understand category of "hallucinative psychosis" but it simply isn't that simple.

[Carl Carlson IV]

Originally Posted by KaleidoskopicVision

I think the temptation to say you can do the same thing LSD does unaided is a large one, often indulged by people who don't know just how intricate the brain is. To presume that you could synthesize LSD molecules within the body, direct serotonin molecules to 5 specific sub receptors and initiate the complex activation process of the sympathetic neurons to achieve the same thing taking LSD does sounds unlikely to say the least. People have enough trouble controlling anger and addiction without trying to do something impossible by the standards of neuroscience.

Similar does not equal the same. I've never tripped balls on clean air, but I've had experiences similar to being under the influence of LSD without taking any drug. As you were so kind to explain, my body can not produce LSD, which I never claimed, but through meditation and other methods, such as sensory deprivation, you can have a similar experience.

[Andrew Brunelle]

If Steve took magic mushrooms, he would probably end up going insane. Can't you see he has enough skill to completely change his reality without the use of drugs? He doesn't need to trip, he trips on life.

That didn't sound that good, he gets high on life. That cereal is amazing! He's been able to create an amazing life without ever taking any drugs. What does that say about drugs? That they are not necessary.

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by Andrew Brunelle

If Steve took magic mushrooms, he would probably end up going insane. Can't you see he has enough skill to completely change his reality without the use of drugs? He doesn't need to trip, he trips on life.

That didn't sound that good, he gets high on life. That cereal is amazing! He's been able to create an amazing life without ever taking any drugs. What does that say about drugs? That they are not necessary.

Just playing devil's advocate ('cause I agree with you): didn't he create the drugs?

[carenkh]

Originally Posted by KaleidoskopicVision

Clearly you've never taken a psychedelic.

Sure I have. I wouldn't speak about it if I hadn't.

Originally Posted by KaleidoskopicVision

Also that story of Ram Dass giving Maharaji hits of lsd comes with a great deal of assumption on your part. The drug may very well have affected Maharaji, but rather than reacting astonished he went into it like he would go into any other experience. Peacefully, with a hint of a smile. Nowhere in that experience did Maharaji say "Hey Ram, this isn't doing anything!". As I recall he didn't say anything at all.

When I heard Ram Dass speak about it, he said Maharaji continued to have regular conversation - that it didn't affect him (his words). If there's assumption, it's on Ram Dass' part - and since he was there, I'm going with his interpretation.

I do not know about chemical reactions, brain chemistry, etc. and I have no need to. I have my own experiences - taking substances, meditating, living in the now, living life through a subjective lens.

Psychedelics offer a weak imitation of real-life experiences. But who's to say what's real life, anyway? Perhaps I'm still at Jed's Farm, tripping my brains out, all these years later.

[cortocabezas1111]

Technically I'm a dream character making a dream suggestion of dream mushrooms. So I'm you, advising you, that taking a part of you (mushrooms) will help you realize the full extent of you in a shorter amount of time(and time is also you). It'll be like a "permission slip" into allowing much more of You to be realized. I mean, if You reaaaalllly wanna get the ball rolling on this subjective reality thing.

[KaleidoskopicVision]

Originally Posted by carenkh

Sure I have. I wouldn't speak about it if I hadn't.



When I heard Ram Dass speak about it, he said Maharaji continued to have regular conversation - that it didn't affect him (his words). If there's assumption, it's on Ram Dass' part - and since he was there, I'm going with his interpretation.

I do not know about chemical reactions, brain chemistry, etc. and I have no need to. I have my own experiences - taking substances, meditating, living in the now, living life through a subjective lens.

Psychedelics offer a weak imitation of real-life experiences. But who's to say what's real life, anyway? Perhaps I'm still at Jed's Farm, tripping my brains out, all these years later.

Sorry for the assumption. I really need to work on that.

The reason why I like the neurological interpretation here is that it's so much more intriguing and opens so many more possibilities than a simple, cut and dry explanation like "oh I'm just tripping balls" or "oh this is a weak imitation of real life". I want to know what's really going on, inside the brain. I want to know what that little molecule is doing to all the other little molecules that compose my perceptions. It doesn't seem fair to say it's a weak imitation of real life, when real life is just a composition of the different neurochemicals firing this and that way in certain patterns. If my experience of love or hate are chemical reactions, an LSD trip is no more or less real than those 'real life' experiences. This is why I think cutting edge science like neuropharmacology fits so well with subjective reality. It frees your mind from thinking an experience is more 'real' than another one. It blasts linearity in the face. I'm swimming in a chemical soup, so are you. If the recipe changes, does it mean one recipe is more valid than the other? If I sprinkle some LSD into my soup, does it mean my perceptions suddenly become less real when the me in question is merely an emergent phenomenon created by neurochemical interaction?

I don't think so.

I understand that you feel the need to not understand science's perspective, but if you do follow the idea of SR I highly suggest giving it a fair chance. It's a new and refreshing perspective. That's what SR is all about isn't it? New perspectives and being able to shift from one to the other. On one hand you could say your 'own' life experiences are more valuable, and in another your 'own' life experiences cease to be a matter of ownership and quantification and become something entirely different and more wondrous. Not to mention more useful. Did you know Alexander Shulgin, a chemist who synthesizes a new psychedelic chemical almost twice a month, is considering using the highly diverse cornucopia of drugs he has created as means for modulation of consciousness OUTSIDE of our accepted bounds and parameters for it. This means not inducing experiences of love, hate, fear, excitement and the usual boring gambit of human emotion. It means creating entirely novel experiences beyond limitation of what is possible as a human with a human's brain chemistry. It's an evolutionary quantum leap waiting to happen. One that we probably can't reach without chemical aid, much like I couldn't contact someone in Nepal, send them a photo album, see their face live on a webcam and do it all in 10 minutes and still have time to eat dinner here without the existence of the internet.

[KaleidoskopicVision]

Originally Posted by Carl Carlson IV

Similar does not equal the same. I've never tripped balls on clean air, but I've had experiences similar to being under the influence of LSD without taking any drug. As you were so kind to explain, my body can not produce LSD, which I never claimed, but through meditation and other methods, such as sensory deprivation, you can have a similar experience.

The experiences can be similar, but the human mind is fond of finding similarities where there are none. During an LSD trip, the mind reels and frantically grasps for something to compare the novel experience to. The same thing happens with every novel experience, drugs are not an exception. So the trip becomes 'good' or 'bad'. The novel and unique, the unexplainable element is still there and causes real growth (which is but again an attempt at grasping and comparison), but most of the trip is slowly made comparable to previous and understood experiences. The brain likes to make connections where there are none.

[KaleidoskopicVision]

Originally Posted by Andrew Brunelle

If Steve took magic mushrooms, he would probably end up going insane. Can't you see he has enough skill to completely change his reality without the use of drugs? He doesn't need to trip, he trips on life.

That didn't sound that good, he gets high on life. That cereal is amazing! He's been able to create an amazing life without ever taking any drugs. What does that say about drugs? That they are not necessary.

Andrew, I can't see that. While you may see Steve's perspectives as undoubtedly fluid and adjustable, I disagree. There is always, always, always room for another perspective. Creating an amazing life is not the only goal in the universe, mind you. There are other things to do, that might even directly interfere with the goal of "creating an amazing life" such as the search for truth. Or novelty. Or the experience of the unexplainable. All these things may interrupt or delay ones ability to create an amazing life. Or they may simply be irrelevant to creating an amazing life. Or they may end up making life more amazing.

I didn't use psychedelics with the intent of making my life more amazing. I don't criticize those who do, but what intrigued me about them before trying them is that the experience's definitions were so broad, so alien and so unusual that it was obvious to me that we were dealing with something that King Solomon wouldn't be too happy about. Something "new under the sun". Sure enough I am still unable to truthfully write off my experiences with psychedelics as something other than a novel and unique phenomenon. Others have been able to do it, but I'm not so reticent toward a complete reevaluation of what I had believed is possible.

Evolution is not about creating an amazing life. I'm not saying it isn't a worthy goal, but if it were the goal I think all our lives would be much easier and enjoyable. It's a search for something beyond that. And that. And that.

Whether Steve would go insane or not is irrelevant. There is always a danger in experiencing novel phenomenon. If one wants to experience something entirely different, the risks are just part of the package.

[Easterbunny]

Bla bla bla... "weak imitation of real life experiences" "science says this that" bla. Er... y'all sound a little subjective to me, if you know what I mean

Everybody has his own way of learning. For me, hell yeah it was mushrooms that gave me a jump start in my personal and spiritual development. So many lessons learned, so much love and healing I received during those sessions.

But it's not everybody's cup of tea, and that's totally okay. No need to judge each other here or wanting to be the one that is right. There is no right or wrong here fellas, everything goes

[ballhit2]

Steve's reluctance here is yet another example of the bondage of his catholic upbringing holding him back in an area of consciousness growth.

[KaleidoskopicVision]

Originally Posted by ballhit2

Steve's reluctance here is yet another example of the bondage of his catholic upbringing holding him back in an area of consciousness growth.

I had a catholic upbringing and was only mildly reticent to try psychedelics. I don't think it has anything to do with his upbringing. Then again what the hell do I know?

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by ballhit2

Steve's reluctance here is yet another example of the bondage of his catholic upbringing holding him back in an area of consciousness growth.

I was sent to a catholic school, and, if anything, it made me hungry for all kinds of experiences that were sold to me as 'forbidden', including hallucinogens and other drugs.

I guess it can go either way for different individuals though*shrugs*

Maybe I was just lucky, that I didn't have my natural curiosity beaten out of me with stories of hell and other nonsense.

Fear is an interesting thing...how it can dictate or drive one persons entire life, whilst causing another person to fight past that fear and live.

[Jonathan Browne]

Shrooms and LSD are completely beyond expectation. The key is to take the proper dosage though to really experience something noteworthy.

erowid.org is a great resource for finding more information.

I really think it would be incredibly interesting if steve tried a psychedelic. I think the fact he seems quite clear that his disinterest for reasons of "my life is already too crazy" is a clear indication that he needs to move toward whatever fear is causing that belief. If kids who've made barely any effort toward concious growth can experience these trips and come out fine and make significant realizations, i'm pretty sure steve can handle it.

I don't think he quite realizes just how strong and perception altering a psychedelic experience can be.

Without LSD I highly doubt the beatles and pink floyd would have become anything too much more interesting than pop sensations.

[Mounds]

Originally Posted by ballhit2

Steve's reluctance here is yet another example of the bondage of his catholic upbringing holding him back in an area of consciousness growth.

I disagree with this statement. I've never had any religious ties and I haven't done any drugs. I've been told in the past that I'm missing out and I often reply with a statement like, "Your the one missing out"
When I was young, I dove into the world of dinosaurs. When I was a little older, I dove into the world of insects, origami, drawing, all kinds of stuff. When I was a young adult (20-25), I got into even more stuff, like NLP, psychology, sociology, personal development, biologoy, astronomy, geology, business, on and on. There is simply so much to discover in this life that to me, taking a drug would be to squander the time I have.

Why do people take psychedelics to begin with? Is it to gain a new perspective? A new experience? Why is there this belief that if you don't want to take a psychedelic, it's a fear-based belief?

[danas]

As someone who has tried all kinds of psychedelics, my experience of getting to the point of being amazed by the magnificence of life without needing any of these substances, is much much more interesting, satisfying and joyous

[RomanHD]

Originally Posted by Mounds

Why do people take psychedelics to begin with? Is it to gain a new perspective? A new experience? Why is there this belief that if you don't want to take a psychedelic, it's a fear-based belief?

I see three main motivations to take psychedelics (aside from boredom and herd mentality):

1. to escape (often painful) reality or
2. to learn more about your subconscious mind or
3. to connect with higher beings.

Let's analyse them. Now, I'm mostly a sceptic, and I think you are too, so we can throw the third reason out right now.

The first motivation to take drugs is also very bad, and will most likely lead to addiction and even more pain. Not really recommended.

The second one is what I would call a good reason to take psychedelics. Think about it. For a few hours of your time (researching, purchasing, ingesting, experiencing, writing it down), you can have a very interesting experience which might or might not carry on to your daily life.

The things you have been doing since your early twenties like personal development, for example, often require often months or years before you can see any results. With drugs, you just purchase it, take a hit and enjoy.

So if you haven't tried psychedelics yet, it's PROBABLY because of fear. Fear of either the law or screwing up your brain chemistry. For me, it's both, so I don't do any drugs except for a little tobacco, but I do admit that this decision is fear-based

[danas]

Originally Posted by RomanHD

I see three main motivations to take psychedelics (aside from boredom and herd mentality):

1. to escape (often painful) reality or
2. to learn more about your subconscious mind or
3. to connect with higher beings.

Let's analyse them. Now, I'm mostly a sceptic, and I think you are too, so we can throw the third reason out right now.

The first motivation to take drugs is also very bad, and will most likely lead to addiction and even more pain. Not really recommended.

The second one is what I would call a good reason to take psychedelics. Think about it. For a few hours of your time (researching, purchasing, ingesting, experiencing, writing it down), you can have a very interesting experience which might or might not carry on to your daily life.

The things you have been doing since your early twenties like personal development, for example, often require often months or years before you can see any results. With drugs, you just purchase it, take a hit and enjoy.

So if you haven't tried psychedelics yet, it's PROBABLY because of fear. Fear of either the law or screwing up your brain chemistry. For me, it's both, so I don't do any drugs except for a little tobacco, but I do admit that this decision is fear-based

I have learnt much more about my subconscious mind through dreams and developing my intuition, then any psychedelics I have ever tried. Im glad I experimented with them, so I can see the difference, When I tried psychedelics there was always a down.

If you want to lean more about your subconscious. Clear out the toxins- eat light raw food, no alcohol or cigarettes or coffee, breathe fresh aim, and you will see that your dreams at night will be a real "trip" and your thoughts will manifest into reality so fast you will be awe struck.
Popping a pill is a short cut, but as always shortcuts usually have a price to be payed.

[RomanHD]

Originally Posted by danas

If you want to lean more about your subconscious. Clear out the toxins- eat light raw food, no alcohol or cigarettes or coffee, breathe fresh aim, and you will see that your dreams at night will be a real "trip" and your thoughts will manifest into reality so fast you will be awe struck.
Popping a pill is a short cut, but as always shortcuts usually have a price to be payed.

I don't really care about my dreams or subconscious any more, I was just discussing. But thanks for the advice, I might try it temporarily sometime, although I can't imagine living on 'light raw food' for more than 24 hours...

[danas]

Originally Posted by RomanHD

I don't really care about my dreams or subconscious any more

Really? For me its like my guide to life.
I see my dreams as letters from the subconscious, its so helpful to receive them!