Living Subjectively (Blog)

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by The Unconquered

It's their subjective reality that they have defined, not me. If someone wants to perceive me a certain way, Actual Reality be damned, there is nothing I can do to violate their free will.

If you believe in SR, how can there be anything else but YOUR SR? So that would mean that if you run into people who perceive you a certain way, YOU perceive you a certain way...

Meaning that you are all but powerless to change that perception. Actually, you have ALL the power!

The "others" are just here to reflect back at you, how you see yourself... so they are helping you. The second you see yourself different, you will see that others in your life see you different as well...

[The Unconquered]

Originally Posted by ssandra

If you believe in SR, how can there be anything else but YOUR SR? So that would mean that if you run into people who perceive you a certain way, YOU perceive you a certain way...

Meaning that you are all but powerless to change that perception. Actually, you have ALL the power!

The "others" are just here to reflect back at you, how you see yourself... so they are helping you. The second you see yourself different, you will see that others in your life see you different as well...

. . . yeah, I would like a translator, please. If you are perceiving someone who calls herself "The Unconquered" as powerless, clearly there is a misunderstanding going on.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by The Unconquered

. . . yeah, I would like a translator, please. If you are perceiving someone who calls herself "The Unconquered" as powerless, clearly there is a misunderstanding going on.

I said.... all BUT powerless.

Meaning, completely powerful.

And that was in reply where you said:

Originally Posted by The Unconquered

If someone wants to perceive me a certain way, Actual Reality be damned, there is nothing I can do to violate their free will.

Nothing you can do, for me translates into "I am powerless" (to do anything about it )

[Angela]

Originally Posted by The Unconquered

It's their subjective reality that they have defined, not me. If someone wants to perceive me a certain way, Actual Reality be damned, there is nothing I can do to violate their free will.

That is so. And if you want to transform a conversation, you have limitless power to do so.

If someone wants to perceive you in a certain way -- if they're committed to seeing you in a certain way -- they're certainly free to choose that. And even so, if you're flexible -- if you're willing to try something new -- you can (not that you *should*) dance in the conversation, and completely transform the experience of the conversation, for yourself, and for the other person.

The way I see it, the way I find works best, is: I am 100% responsible for the communication, whether I'm sending or receiving a message. I don't require the other person to use the same perspective, but conversation is especially fun and effective when I find myself talking with someone who does.

[The Unconquered]

Originally Posted by ssandra

I said.... all BUT powerless.

Meaning, completely powerful.

And that was in reply where you said:



Nothing you can do, for me translates into "I am powerless" (to do anything about it )

No, it doesn't translate into that unless you perceive it that way. Read Angela for more clarification:

Originally Posted by Angela

And if you want to transform a conversation, you have limitless power to do so.

If someone wants to perceive you in a certain way -- if they're committed to seeing you in a certain way -- they're certainly free to choose that. And even so, if you're flexible -- if you're willing to try something new -- you can (not that you *should*) dance in the conversation, and completely transform the experience of the conversation, for yourself, and for the other person.

The way I see it, the way I find works best, is: I am 100% responsible for the communication, whether I'm sending or receiving a message. I don't require the other person to use the same perspective, but conversation is especially fun and effective when I find myself talking with someone who does.

That is what I have been trying to say. Thank you for translating it for me into something you yourself can understand.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by The Unconquered

No, it doesn't translate into that unless you perceive it that way. Read Angela for more clarification:

I agree with Angela, and that is exactly what I was saying as well.

I just didn't perceive you saying that... Now, from my perspective, that is something in me.

What is that from your perspective?




ps. and I know I just have to get this out there, otherwise it will keep bugging me... you did read that I said:

Nothing you can do, for me translates into "I am powerless" (to do anything about it )

[The Unconquered]

Originally Posted by ssandra

I agree with Angela, and that is exactly what I was saying as well.

I just didn't perceive you saying that... Now, from my perspective, that is something in me.

What is that from your perspective?

I was trying to tell you all this time that you were both agreeing with me! Good thing I called on my SR for a translator.

Originally Posted by ssandra

ps. and I know I just have to get this out there, otherwise it will keep bugging me... you did read that I said:

Nothing you can do, for me translates into "I am powerless" (to do anything about it )

Like Angela said previously:

If someone wants to perceive you in a certain way -- if they're committed to seeing you in a certain way -- they're certainly free to choose that.

She was just saying it as a cheerleader while I was saying it as a straight shooter.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by The Unconquered

Like Angela said previously:
She was just saying it as a cheerleader while I was saying it as a straight shooter.

She also said:

Originally Posted by Angela

And even so, if you're flexible -- if you're willing to try something new -- you can (not that you *should*) dance in the conversation, and completely transform the experience of the conversation, for yourself, and for the other person.

Which means that there is NOT Nothing you can do. There are limitless things that you can do.

[ssandra]

Oh and... Arguing (having a discussion) with someone elses words is FUN!

Hope you don't take offense Angela (somehow I doubt that you do )

But it is so interesting that 2 people can read the same words by a 3rd party person, and get something so completely different from them..

[gloci]

This to me is about inspiration and how to act on it

(Eminem - Lose Yourself

YouTube - ‪Eminem - Lose Yourself MUSIC VIDEO‬‎

[Angela]

Originally Posted by ssandra

She also said:

... there is NOT Nothing you can do. There are limitless things that you can do.

Yes, that's what I meant to say. There is always something that's not nothing you can choose to do, and there is plenty of not nothing you can do that can transform a conversation -- and have a person hearing you the way you want to be heard.

That's really something!

(If you are committed to hearing me as a cheerleader, you probably won't hear me as a straight-shooter, but if you're willing to shift your perspective a bit, you might be able to see that I'm a straight-shootin' cheerleader. Which gives me yet ANOTHER idea for a halloween costume! )

[James81]

Originally Posted by The Unconquered

I was trying to tell you all this time that you were both agreeing with me! Good thing I called on my SR for a translator.


Like Angela said previously:
She was just saying it as a cheerleader while I was saying it as a straight shooter.

Oh shoot, you're on this in this thread too?

What's your resistance surrounding Angela lately? It may not even have anything to DO with her, but she's representing some aspect of resistance you have in yourself.

Something that the straight-shooter part of you thinks is loopier than hell.

[The Unconquered]

Originally Posted by ssandra

She also said:

Which means that there is NOT Nothing you can do. There are limitless things that you can do.

Yes, that's why this thread has been going on for limitless pages . . . I've been trying to figure out how to alter my communication style to most effectively reach you. I'm learning how to communicate in a more effective manner. I'm still working on it, as you see. This is not what I am talking about when people refuse to see what they refuse to see.

[The Unconquered]

Originally Posted by James81

Oh shoot, you're on this in this thread too?

What's your resistance surrounding Angela lately? It may not even have anything to DO with her, but she's representing some aspect of resistance you have in yourself.

Something that the straight-shooter part of you thinks is loopier than hell.

Like I said previously in this thread, I am trying to develop an Influential communication style that will effectively reach people who communicate like ssandra and Angela. My predominant style is Dominant. You can learn more about differing communication styles here.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by The Unconquered

This is not what I am talking about when people refuse to see what they refuse to see.

Ok, then what are you talking about when you are talking about when people refuse to see what they refuse to see?

I'm serious here, I'd like to know? I'll keep an open mind and do my extreme best to read your words as you say them, so feel free to use your own communication style to get through to me!

[The Unconquered]

Originally Posted by ssandra

Ok, then what are you talking about when you are talking about when people refuse to see what they refuse to see?

I'm serious here, I'd like to know? I'll keep an open mind and do my extreme best to read your words as you say them, so feel free to use your own communication style to get through to me!

An example would be someone who judges people by the color of their skin but not the content of their character and refuses to budge on that racist perspective.

EDIT: This is an abstract example and not from anything derived from the thread topic.

[James81]

Originally Posted by The Unconquered

Like I said previously in this thread, I am trying to develop an Influential communication style that will effectively reach people who communicate like ssandra and Angela. My predominant style is Dominant. You can learn more about differing communication styles here.

Well, there's a couple of things you can do.

First of all, you could look for your own limiting beliefs and then try on new possibilities (the kind of stuff Angela does in her work). That will at least help you see where the conflict comes from.

Secondly, there's a habit in Stephen Covey's "Seven Habits" program that works very well in this regard (but it's not as easy to apply as you might think). And that is: "Seek first to understand, then to be understood."

The most influence I have in my own life is when I take the time to understand a person (fully understand them) before giving them advice. The times I create pretty resistance based situations are when I just bull into it with my own opinions without really understanding.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by The Unconquered

An example would be someone who judges people by the color of their skin but not the content of their character and refuses to budge on that racist perspective.

EDIT: This is an abstract example and not from anything derived from the thread topic.

I would agree with James that there is still a LOT you could do in this situation.

I personally have a LOT of problems with that, cause I get very defensive right away.

But I realized, and used it in practice, that with an extreme racist (towards muslims and jews) when I truly tried to get their point of view, and asked questions not to get them to change their mind, but to truly understand them... in the end we at least could agree on the fact that not ALL muslims and jews are possibly bad.

Which, going from "We should bomb them all" is a HUGE improvement...

[The Unconquered]

Originally Posted by ssandra

I would agree with James that there is still a LOT you could do in this situation.

I personally have a LOT of problems with that, cause I get very defensive right away.

But I realized, and used it in practice, that with an extreme racist (towards muslims and jews) when I truly tried to get their point of view, and asked questions not to get them to change their mind, but to truly understand them... in the end we at least could agree on the fact that not ALL muslims and jews are possibly bad.

Which, going from "We should bomb them all" is a HUGE improvement...

Of course . . . if they agree to open their minds. I believe Angela and I are both saying that we can't force them to choose to agree to open their minds. Of course, that doesn't mean we can't open our own minds and understand their point of view -- like what we're doing right now with each other. That is where our power comes from -- how we choose to react in this situation. Or, as the Serenity Prayer more elegantly puts it:

"God, grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the Courage to change the things I can, and the Wisdom to know the difference."

As a more relevant example to this thread, I could have given up on this conversation long ago as a lost cause, but I kept at it, and eventually we made a breakthrough.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by The Unconquered

Of course . . . if they agree to open their minds.

No.

If YOU agree to open your mind and try to truly understand the other person, magic happens.

At least, that is my experience. After, the other (usually in my opinion) doesn't even realize that his mind has changed or opened. He feels as if he has always felt like that.

[James81]

Originally Posted by The Unconquered

Of course . . . if they agree to open their minds.

And right here is where the brash, tough love approach pushes people away (I've found).

People are far more willing to open up to you when you understand them, I think, than they are when you are being blunt with them.

Building trust with someone first is key to having them open up to you.

Like I told you before, I've found in my own life that I can still be "honest" and candid with people, while simultaneously being empathetic and understanding with them.

[The Unconquered]

Originally Posted by James81

And right here is where the brash, tough love approach pushes people away (I've found).

People are far more willing to open up to you when you understand them, I think, than they are when you are being blunt with them.

Building trust with someone first is key to having them open up to you.

Like I told you before, I've found in my own life that I can still be "honest" and candid with people, while simultaneously being empathetic and understanding with them.

It depends on the person. For example, I complained to someone about my financial situation and moving back home, and they said, "Saying your financial situation made you move back home is like saying condoms made you had sex."

The light went on, and now I'm starting my own business.

That's why communication style is so important. What works for some people will not work for others.

[The Unconquered]

@James81:

As I am sure you have seen before, I am trying to develop a more Influential style (or as you put it: 'honest' and candid with people, while simultaneously being empathetic and understanding with them") as it would reach more people. I fully believe I can do this with practice. Instead of being powerless, I am being powerful in willingly practicing it.

My Dominant communication style is like this:
"Dominance: People who score high in the intensity of the "D" styles factor are very active in dealing with problems and challenges, while low "D" scores are people who want to do more research before committing to a decision. High "D" people are described as demanding, forceful, egocentric, strong willed, driving, determined, ambitious, aggressive, and pioneering."

I see Angela's style as more like this:
"Influence: People with high "I" scores influence others through talking and activity and tend to be emotional. They are described as convincing, magnetic, political, enthusiastic, persuasive, warm, demonstrative, trusting, and optimistic."

(both from DISC assessment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

I have been practicing this style throughout this thread. As you can see, I still have a lot of work to do. My attitude is that "Anything worth doing is worth doing badly, as long as the will is to improve."

[The Unconquered]

Originally Posted by ssandra

No.

If YOU agree to open your mind and try to truly understand the other person, magic happens.

At least, that is my experience. After, the other (usually in my opinion) doesn't even realize that his mind has changed or opened. He feels as if he has always felt like that.

Ssandra, I am really, really, really trying to be patient and empathetic with you. I apologize for failing repeatedly to get my point across. I believe I understand what you are saying, and I wish you would take the time to quote the entire post in order to communicate that you are also understanding me. So far, I am getting the impression that you do not understand that I agree with your initial point!

[Savage]

Originally Posted by The Unconquered

Ssandra, I am really, really, really trying to be patient and empathetic with you. I apologize for failing repeatedly to get my point across. I believe I understand what you are saying, and I wish you would take the time to quote the entire post in order to communicate that you are also understanding me. So far, I am getting the impression that you do not understand that I agree with your initial point!

Try realizing that you're talking with yourself. There's no point in trying to get your point across to anyone else. It's more important that you understand and accept what they want you to know since that information is coming from you anyway.

[The Unconquered]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Try realizing that you're talking with yourself. There's no point in trying to get your point across to anyone else. It's more important that you understand and accept what they want you to know since that information is coming from you anyway.

That's very true, Steve. And I already know that only a minority of the population shares the Dominant style of communication and so we are often misunderstood by many.

There are advantages and disadvantages to this Dominant style: The major advantage is that I naturally gravitate to leadership roles. I know that the disadvantage is that some people bristle at my style no matter what I do. I also know that sometimes don't quit even when I know on a gut level that I cannot change others' perceptions of myself or my style as they have free will to understand it or not.

At least I can honestly say that I gave it my all, I didn't lose my temper, and no one got banned as a result of this thread. I feel frustrated, but at least I can let it go without regret.

@Ssandra, @Angela, and @James81 -- I tried. I really, really tried to communicate that we agree.

And that's really all I can do.

I'm out.

[James81]

Heh, you're so attached to that Dominant style. And you're getting so frustrated. do you think that's a coincidence? (especially considering your username!)

What if you were to let go of your need to be dominant all the time?

The dominant style works in some cases, other styles work in other cases. If you want to expand your influence, I think accepting that you are capable of many different styles might be one good approach for you to consider.

Steve put it well: DO NOT RESIST US. WAR IS SLAVERY. IGNORANT IS PEACE. ALLAH ACKBAR. JIHAD!

[cortocabezas1111]

Am I a figment of Steve Pavlina's imagination?

No.

I say this with 100% certainty. Maybe in his reality I am, but how do I know his reality even exists? How do I know that he even exists? I know that I am continuously experiencing this moment right now and that's all I really know. I see other people in my experience from time to time, and for most of my life I just sorta figured they were all experiencing the world like me, but do I know for sure? No. I don't. Do I exist in this experience of this moment when Steve Pavlina isn't in it? Yes I do. Is my existence dependent on Steve Pavlina's? No it is not. Am I Steve Pavlina's dream character? No I don't think so. Unless EVERYBODY is equally real and dreaming, and having the same continuous experience of this moment as I am, and when I appear in SP's dream, like posting on this site, I enter his dream as a dream character and he interpretts my being there in a way to fit into his dream. But then that's not really what this whole "SR" thing is about then, is it? There's only supposed to be one "dreamer" and everything and everyone inside of the "dreamer"'s dream is just a dream and not actually real.

All of the "characters" in my "dream" have immensely detailed personal histories and back stories, their own goals ambitions and personal problems that makes them seem pretty real. By experimenting altering the way I choose to perceive things, people, myself, the world, existence, reality...ect... I have seem equal changes in whatever it is I am perceiving to begin with. So I have experienced these "characters" as both incredibly real and as extensions/projections/reflections of "Me", of what I think what I worry about, how I choose to view myself and people......ect. I've seen certain fears that I have, take on "dream characters" of their own and disappear as soon as I realize them as reflections of my personal fear or worry. Friends have spoken to me about how they think they are just a character in my dream, which was weird. I've had strangers walk up to me, tell me they feel safe around me. I've had other strangers walk up to me while I was at a store and offer to pay, or give me money for what I was buying. When I refused, they shoved the money into my hand and quickly left the store. This happened like three times maybe? And each time was just as confusing as the last, it was great but I was just like "Uhh thanks?"

But am I Steve's dream character? No. I can say for almost 100% certain that I am not. I mean, how do I know Steve Pavlina even exists? I've never seen the man in person, only read his words and seen his picture on a website that bares "his" name. He has said, numerous times, "YOU are the only conscious being", so perhaps he is a dream character of MINE trying to wake me up to the fact that I'm the only one dreaming and everyone/thing else is just not real. Or perhaps he is just another person questioning reality, and himself, and experimenting and typing his revelations and realizations out in his blog posts to the GENERAL "you", not the specific "You", not the "You" meaning "me". I type alot of my posts out to the general "you", so this is easy to understand. I exist without Steve Pavlina. This moment continues to exist for me without the idea, or concept of Steve Pavlina or his website. Those fade from my experience and I am still here. But what's it say, when I say to myself that I am ready to continue going deeper with this SR thing, than Steve makes a similar blog post? Just coincidence? Is it me making the decision, and my reality reflecting/projecting that? Or is it something bigger than me, Steve Pavlina, and the rest of the people on these boards and on this planet?

All I really know for sure is I exist right now, and I experience right now the way I choose to perceive it, so I'mma make things easy, enjoyable, entertaining and enlightening for myself. I'm also going to squeeze some alliteration in there from time to time.

[cylon]

You don't exist right now. Your awareness exists, but you don't. And "you" at the end of the day is really just your physical body, and the brain that is supposedly in that body, which is supposedly thinking your thoughts. But you know by now that the physical world is an illusion.

If the physical world is an illusion, then that must include you, right? Your body is all perception. You aren't here/there. Nothing is here/there. This is a dream. It looks real. It's all magic/imagination/smoke and mirrors. But it's still enjoyable, even if you realize it's an illusion.

Therefore YOU do not exist. Neither do I. Or maybe better said, we don't exist as separate beings, but our awareness exists as one consciousness.

So no you aren't a figment of Steve's imagination because Steve is a dream character without an imagination. And I'm exactly the same way. So are you. You are a figment of the dreamers imagination and as the dreamer becomes aware of its own dream the dream changes to accommodate this new story line.

"What would it be like if the dream character realized it was dreaming? Would the dream change?" Your experience is now playing out that story.

I had a dream (sleeping dream) a few nights ago and in it I was walking around and realized that this was all my creation. I realized it was all "my kingdom" and everywhere I went and everyone I met was a creation of my own consciousness.

Yet the dream was still a dream. It wasn't really the typical lucid dream where I realized "I'm really in bed right now asleep". Rather it was me having a dream that I was interacting with all my creations, but the "me" in the dream never realized that I was actually asleep. I thought what was going on in the dream was my current every-day experience that was morphing before my eyes in the waking state (typical dream, basically).

That's the best analogy I can find for what I think is going on. Although you are waking up, and are changing the dream, it's still a dream. You're just dreaming that you are waking up. The person who is dreaming you is one level removed from your conscious mind, and I doubt you'll ever make contact with him in this earth-existence. I don't think that's necessary or even desirable.

The dream is the experience. It's all you but at the same time, none of it is you. While you're dreaming, you can make cool stuff happen and that's all you need to know. It's all "fake". All of it. Me, you, Steve. The only thing real is the dream itself. And dreams, by their nature, are illusions.

[airplus]

Originally Posted by cortocabezas1111

Am I a figment of Steve Pavlina's imagination?

No.

Ok, so far I have seen this scenarios:

- SP has been and is still sleeping somewhere in (another dimension/planet?), and has been having a lifelong (now lucid) dream and I am just another NCP, maybe I represent some part of his conciousness.

- I am sleeping somewhere out there and my life (my current reality) is just the dream I am dreaming while my physical body is sitting somewhere. SP is just a caracther in my dream that perhaps represents... who knows?

- We are all in a dream scenario that is being dreamt by somebody else (God?) and when that entity wakes up we are all done. This is what SP refers as 'the dreamer' (not himself).

Could somebody please be so kind to clarify what is going on SP trial?
Please be gentle, I am a newbie around here