Living Subjectively (Blog)

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by The Unconquered

I think the worst thing to do about living subjectively is to try to reason objectively about it. Granted, that's a hard habit to break, to stop controlling things, even your thoughts about things, but simply going on intuition and trusting in the result is the ultimately the name of the game.

For someone unaccustomed to meditation and watching your own thoughts, yes, it does defeat the purpose. Which is exactly why you have to achieve both mastery of your environment and mastery of your emotions before you can attempt it. If you try to do this without mastering your environment, you'll get scared and bail out before it can work its magic. If you try without first mastering your emotions, you'll find the necessary catharses eluding you. But those who've done both realize that the mind always exists in a dual state and that the proper response isn't to push yourself towards one extreme or the other, but to surf the nuances of existence for as far as the wave takes you.

Then, and only then, are you truly in the subjective state, creating the existence around you like a painter contemplates the canvas. You can think objectively while living subjectively. You can look at a woman, and see the woman as she is, and watch your own reactions to her, see her reactions to your reactions to her, instantly, and realize that this is not a great power you have over people, but the magic of living life the way nature intended us to live it, not as our foolish minds dictate.

Meditation is the key to surfing conflicting, battling realities. It's there to teach you a trick. Once you learn the trick, meditation becomes an empty thrill, like taking drugs. You think you're bringing yourself to higher and higher levels of reality, but really you're like the drunk who thinks he's getting better at drinking. Learn the lesson meditation teaches you. Learn to watch your thoughts. Then stop sitting down when you meditate and meditate while you're doing everything else. Create the watcher that watches your conscious mind. Then you can give over all the other parts of yourself over to pure subjectivity and turn it off and on whenever you need to without losing the strength and magic of the mode.

[The Unconquered]

Originally Posted by VinceG

For someone unaccustomed to meditation and watching your own thoughts, yes, it does defeat the purpose. Which is exactly why you have to achieve both mastery of your environment and mastery of your emotions before you can attempt it.

B+. A more precise answer is you have to achieve both mastery of your reactions to your environment and mastery of your reactions to your emotions before you can attempt it. Like you say later, you can't control your environment or your emotions, only how you choose to react to them.

[The Unconquered]

Originally Posted by VinceG

This topic interests me. I don't think that the subjective outlook is strictly, scientifically correct, but the subjective way of looking at things lines up so well with what evolution set our species' societies up that you won't lose anything by crossing over. I got into the writings of Osho some years ago and and one of the things he recommended was to go throughout the world thinking "this is a dream." Do it for two weeks, and it'll work wonders for your life.

I met someone the other day who is starting an Osho intentional community in America. While she seems kind and well-meaning, I got a rather bad vibe from the experience overall. I did some research into Osho, read both positive and negative stuff about him from insiders and outsiders, and I concluded my intuition was correct. Osho tries to provide a shortcut -- trust me, you're better off doing it on your own.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by The Unconquered

B+. A more precise answer is you have to achieve both mastery of your reactions to your environment and mastery of your reactions to your emotions before you can attempt it. Like you say later, you can't control your environment or your emotions, only how you choose to react to them.

B+?? I'm getting better at this...

I think you can master both your environment and your emotions. Reactions are emotions. What I meant when I said master your environment was to get to a point where you don't have to worry where your next meal is coming from. A certain amount of material or social wealth. If you run into hard times, it should not interrupt your experiment.

Mastering your emotions involves training your subconscious so that destructive emotions don't arise and if they do arise, you can observe and deal with them.

I met someone the other day who is starting an Osho intentional community in America. While she seems kind and well-meaning, I got a rather bad vibe from the experience overall. I did some research into Osho, read both positive and negative stuff about him from insiders and outsiders, and I concluded my intuition was correct. Osho tries to provide a shortcut -- trust me, you're better off doing it on your own.

I am not affiliated with the Osho community. I read some of his stuff way back when. I can't stand to be around too much new-agey crap. I prefer a simple, uncomplicated life. It helped me when I was having existential issues, but I don't have those anymore. I don't read self-help books or do exercises as I'm externally focused now.

The key to self-growth is to not bite off more than you can chew. When you're first starting out, the tendency is to fix all of your issues in one go with the one method you happened to run across when you were fifteen. You can't even begin to understand everything you want in your life. So start small. Learn how to watch your thoughts. That task will take a few months to a year and will change your life. Simple. Once you've watched your thoughts long enough, they'll tell you what to work on next. Work on that while watching your thoughts. Find yourself slipping, go back to step one.

[tomn8er]

amazingly inspiring article Steve! You are truly becoming an enlightened human being and a better role model for me all the time Much love

[The Unconquered]

Originally Posted by VinceG

B+?? I'm getting better at this...

I think you can master both your environment and your emotions. Reactions are emotions. What I meant when I said master your environment was to get to a point where you don't have to worry where your next meal is coming from. A certain amount of material or social wealth. If you run into hard times, it should not interrupt your experiment.

Yeah, I guess you're getting better

Originally Posted by VinceG

I am not affiliated with the Osho community.

I never said you were.

Originally Posted by VinceG

The key to self-growth is to not bite off more than you can chew.

I'm not sure who you're addressing this part to.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by The Unconquered

Yeah, I guess you're getting better

I have conversations like this a lot, this isn't the first one. I think it a very interesting challenge to articulate my ideas on consciousness to other people. On other topics I'm usually a lot less wordy and vapid. But this topic is really hard, and that's what I like about it. No matter what I do, I cannot be both precise and brief on the subject of consciousness. Hell, not even Steve can. But I try anyway. You should have seen the first few tries. Take my first post here and multiply it by three.

I never said you were.

You told me to stay away from Osho, not realizing that I just might know a hell of a lot more about Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh than you do.

I'm not sure who you're addressing this part to.

Anybody interested in listening. This is a personal development forum, is it not?

[The Unconquered]

Originally Posted by VinceG

I have conversations like this a lot, this isn't the first one. I think it a very interesting challenge to articulate my ideas on consciousness to other people. On other topics I'm usually a lot less wordy and vapid. But this topic is really hard, and that's what I like about it. No matter what I do, I cannot be both precise and brief on the subject of consciousness. Hell, not even Steve can. But I try anyway. You should have seen the first few tries. Take my first post here and multiply it by three.

You should have seen my first 1000 posts here . . .

Originally Posted by VinceG

You told me to stay away from Osho, not realizing that I just might know a hell of a lot more about Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh than you do.

I suppose you could interpret my post that way . . . I'm sorry. That was not what I meant when I wrote that.

[munish]

Originally Posted by The Unconquered

Osho tries to provide a shortcut -- trust me, you're better off doing it on your own.

Osho died long ago.

But i have never read any book by him.

[The Unconquered]

Originally Posted by munish

Osho died long ago.

Yes. He's still around in spirit, though. I know this because I spoke to him last week. Weird but cool.

[munish]

Originally Posted by The Unconquered

I know this because I spoke to him last week.

Are you a psychic medium like Erin?

[AaronB]

Originally Posted by VinceG

I have conversations like this a lot, this isn't the first one. I think it a very interesting challenge to articulate my ideas on consciousness to other people. On other topics I'm usually a lot less wordy and vapid. But this topic is really hard, and that's what I like about it. No matter what I do, I cannot be both precise and brief on the subject of consciousness. Hell, not even Steve can. But I try anyway. You should have seen the first few tries. Take my first post here and multiply it by three.

You told me to stay away from Osho, not realizing that I just might know a hell of a lot more about Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh than you do.

Anybody interested in listening. This is a personal development forum, is it not?

My experience of this conversation is you expressing something very well, and The Unconquered would rate what you say and dismiss it in some way. It was a conversation between articulation and someone dismissing what's been said as being not quite up to their more advanced par. The value of this is pretty clear. If I can dismiss what you say, it makes me appear to be more advanced. If I can tout some special or unique abilities, people will start to value me more. They won't love me more, but they might put me up on a pedestal. I spent much of my life trying to get on that pedestal when I didn't feel intrinsically loved and accepted. When I can't be accepted, the pedestal is the best option left I've got. I still do to some extent, but I watch for it now.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by munish

Osho died long ago.

But i have never read any book by him.

The funny thing is, he's still coming out with new books, even from beyond the grave! His followers like to remix his sayings around some topic like "Mindfulness" and publish them anew. It almost actually fits. Rajneesh was the genuine article, a man who could not be satisfied with a dull life. As a spiritual guru, he leaves much to be desired, but nobody needs a guru anyway! But look past all the mystique he deliberately wrapped around himself to increase his profile, and learn he truly sucked the marrow out of life! He would give talks about all kinds of things, his favorite being just what a sham all the gurus and spiritualists were peddling. But in India nobody listens to an atheist, so he wrapped a pastiche of different spiritual traditions around his ideas to make them more palatable to people. Later, in private talks he gave to his followers, he would systematically dismantle the popular myth.

So much went on around him, he attracted all sorts of elements into his communes. He naively thought that his spiritual practices would keep them from causing too much trouble, and made the huge mistake of trusting a woman named Ma Anand Sheela with his finances. She was a real piece of work, she gathered similarly power-hungry women to turn Rajneeshpuram into the kinds of cults that end in mass suicide. She was responsible for the largest bioterror attack in US history. By the time Rajneesh realized what was going on (the 93 Rolls-Royce's his followers gave him were keeping him occupied) she had sank her hooks deep into his operation and he couldn't do without her.

The human element will destroy most any attempt at gathering people together for the purpose of greater artistic or spiritual expression, unless you're very careful. This is why I stay away from New-Agey type groups. Religion is powerful stuff, and elicits powerful emotions from people.

An excellent recounting of his life and teachings can be found here

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by AaronB

My experience of this conversation is you expressing something very well, and The Unconquered would rate what you say and dismiss it in some way. It was a conversation between articulation and someone dismissing what's been said as being not quite up to their more advanced par.

Don't be so hard on her, I was sort of trying to provoke that kind of reaction. I don't like to be too agreeable, that leads to being ignored, in my experience, but I would never want my conversation partners to think me ungracious.

The value of this is pretty clear. If I can dismiss what you say, it makes me appear to be more advanced. If I can tout some special or unique abilities, people will start to value me more. They won't love me more, but they might put me up on a pedestal. I spent much of my life trying to get on that pedestal when I didn't feel intrinsically loved and accepted. When I can't be accepted, the pedestal is the best option left I've got. I still do to some extent, but I watch for it now.

Chasing feelings of love and acceptance, hmm. I hope you don't have to do too much of that here! Should be plenty of that to go around, lol!

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by The Unconquered

I'm sorry. That was not what I meant when I wrote that.

No problem! Let's start over. Hi, my name is Vince. I'm here to practice having conversations with people about difficult topics. I look at this as sort of a writing clinic. When writing about personal growth, you're going to inevitably start sounding like you're putting on airs, and my answer to that is to just power through it and try to articulate it all anyway. You can't explain consciousness in a humble manner, at least, I can't. But I think humility is a touch overrated, anyway, so bow down and kiss my ring, followers!

[Angela]

Originally Posted by aaronb

when i can't be accepted, the pedestal is the best option left i've got.

I don't know why putting people on pedestals has such a bad rap. It gets 'em up out of the way so you can vacuum.

[AaronB]

Originally Posted by VinceG

Don't be so hard on her, I was sort of trying to provoke that kind of reaction. I don't like to be too agreeable, that leads to being ignored, in my experience, but I would never want my conversation partners to think me ungracious.

My response was my best description available to me. Motivated by whatever internal workings were showing up at the moment. For you this occurs as too hard. For me it occurs as appropriate. Everything I say and do at the moment I do it feels appropriate. The idea that I should adjust how I respond sounds fun only if I get a fun motivation. Not being too hard, it's hard to find the fun factor there. Either my description feels relevant or it doesn't.

My motivation at the time was seeing her as belittling your response without really looking to see if there was anything that she found valuable. It seemed more conducive towards squabbling than relating. Though I suppose squabbling can lead to relating more effectively. Many of my relationships start off at the squabbling level and work their way up from there.

Apparently I've got some judgment towards squabbling. Those discussions seem to focus on who understands some topic best rather than focusing on how to actually add some value.

[AaronB]

Originally Posted by Angela

I don't know why putting people on pedestals has such a bad rap. It gets 'em up out of the way so you can vacuum.

I like how you tamper with my sense of reality. Now whenever I think someone's on a pedestal, a vacuum cleaner is going to show up along with it...

[Angela]

Originally Posted by AaronB

I like how you tamper with my sense of reality. Now whenever I think someone's on a pedestal, a vacuum cleaner is going to show up along with it...

[The Unconquered]

Originally Posted by munish

Are you a psychic medium like Erin?

It wasn't intentional, I swear! I have no formal training, and I'm unsure if I want to capitalize on this ability financially or in any other way. I just heard this voice at this meeting at one of his follower's houses that identified itself as Osho. I talked with the voice in my mind for quite a bit and then told the follower what I knew. She said what I heard was "very Osho." I thought it was weird/freaky/cool because I'd never read any of his books.

A couple of my relatives who have passed have talked to me on occasion, the most recent was my grandfather.

It's just very weird.

[The Unconquered]

Originally Posted by VinceG

No problem! Let's start over. Hi, my name is Vince. I'm here to practice having conversations with people about difficult topics. I look at this as sort of a writing clinic. When writing about personal growth, you're going to inevitably start sounding like you're putting on airs, and my answer to that is to just power through it and try to articulate it all anyway. You can't explain consciousness in a humble manner, at least, I can't. But I think humility is a touch overrated, anyway, so bow down and kiss my ring, followers!

Hi, I'm Morgan and I have a dominant communication style that occasionally puts up unintentional barriers.

[The Unconquered]

Originally Posted by AaronB

If I can tout some special or unique abilities, people will start to value me more. They won't love me more, but they might put me up on a pedestal. I spent much of my life trying to get on that pedestal when I didn't feel intrinsically loved and accepted. When I can't be accepted, the pedestal is the best option left I've got.

Some people misinterpret my confidence as insecurity. While that's their SR, I am aware of my contribution to that misinterpretation. As a communicator, I'm willing to change style as necessary to determine what works. A style is just a style and not ultimately who I am.

[The Unconquered]

Originally Posted by AaronB

My motivation at the time was seeing her as belittling your response without really looking to see if there was anything that she found valuable. It seemed more conducive towards squabbling than relating. Though I suppose squabbling can lead to relating more effectively. Many of my relationships start off at the squabbling level and work their way up from there.

Apparently I've got some judgment towards squabbling. Those discussions seem to focus on who understands some topic best rather than focusing on how to actually add some value.

My motivation was to show that the sentence I highlighted was not as precise as optimally desired IMO. Hence, B+ ("very good, but not quite an A") instead of F ("dismissal/does not understand subject matter"). I generally wouldn't respond to an F, so in a way the comment was meant as a compliment.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by The Unconquered

Hi, I'm Morgan and I have a dominant communication style that occasionally puts up unintentional barriers.

Is it just your communication style that's dominant?

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by AaronB

My response was my best description available to me. Motivated by whatever internal workings were showing up at the moment. For you this occurs as too hard. For me it occurs as appropriate. Everything I say and do at the moment I do it feels appropriate. The idea that I should adjust how I respond sounds fun only if I get a fun motivation. Not being too hard, it's hard to find the fun factor there. Either my description feels relevant or it doesn't.

In my view, communications have purposes. You can either accomplish those purposes or fail at them. If your purpose is merely to say what's on the top of your head, or to have fun, you might as well play notepad with some made up characters. We are all locked away inside of the prison of our own mind, and the only way we can escape that prison is to go out into the world and build connections with others, demolishing those walls. It's a difficult task and easy to toss aside in the selfish desire for validation or fun, but it's the only real way to approach communicating.

Apparently I've got some judgment towards squabbling. Those discussions seem to focus on who understands some topic best rather than focusing on how to actually add some value.

As I said, any attempt to articulate an opinion on personal growth or consciousness inevitably involves making statements others will consider egotistical. My biggest concern when I started posting here was that the prevailing opinion would be that only Steve is "allowed" to have original ideas. I'm happy to see that's not the case.

[roxyruby]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

I knew it! Thanks for finally admitting the truth. I appreciate your honesty.

Now if the other figments would just drop the facade as well...

I think we should all just take SP's latest blog posts as a big compliment, that we are so wonderful that he thinks he must just be living in a dream and can't imagine that we are real hahahahaha

[yoopersmith]

Whenever a problem or conflict arises, I do my best to act immediately.

..."When a problem comes along, you must whip it!"

[The Unconquered]

Originally Posted by VinceG

Is it just your communication style that's dominant?

Why, did you want to be sub?

Originally Posted by VinceG

My biggest concern when I started posting here was that the prevailing opinion would be that only Steve is "allowed" to have original ideas. I'm happy to see that's not the case.

Hahahahaha. Not the case at all. At least, not when I'm around.

[Savage]

Originally Posted by yoopersmith

Whenever a problem or conflict arises, I do my best to act immediately.

..."When a problem comes along, you must whip it!"

Greetings, problem!

[1ofstevesNPCs]

Wow Steve that post was amazing. And you're right. Australia does not exist because you never went there. If you went there and had never seen pictures then you could make up your own country! That would be amazing!! I want to live in Steve's country of enlightenment