CGW Sales Page Lessons (Blog)

[Savage]

Use this thread to discuss the following entry from Steve Pavlina's blog:

CGW Sales Page Lessons

[Nicole H]

That's really interesting. It's something I'd suspected about sales techniques for some time, but never actually heard someone say it. I'm really curious what the copywriter's site looked like. Are there any screenshots, or is there a version of it still up somewhere?

[Savage]

Originally Posted by Nicole H

That's really interesting. It's something I'd suspected about sales techniques for some time, but never actually heard someone say it. I'm really curious what the copywriter's site looked like. Are there any screenshots, or is there a version of it still up somewhere?

You might be able to find it at Internet Archive: Free Movies, Music, Books & Wayback Machine. It's no longer anywhere on my site though.

[oscardelben]

I think sales technique can work only when selling crap to random people. That's where statistics matter. When there are real people who already know you who have been following you for some time then you can't use any technique at all.

[Brenden Cameron]

Out of curiosity, how does the current registration for the October CGW compare to the July one?

You've spoken a fair bit about how each CGW builds upon those before it and refines itself... As a result, I imagine some people may choose to hold off till the latest possible CGW in order to get a better experience.

At any rate, I'll definitely be attending one of the upcoming CGW's; most likely the October one unless events align perfectly for July. Either way, the pushing back of the discount registration has given me some much needed time to decide.

[Adam Elkins]

When I've seen marketing like that I've thought "Woah! what's hiding behind this that needs such pushy, hard-sell tactics to get people to buy it?" However I know that the CGWs are good enough to sell without it, which makes me wonder how much other good stuff is hiding behind crappy marketing?

On the matter of registration numbers I wonder if the people who have registered so far are mainly long-time, highly growth-orientated stevepavlina.com readers and if that pool is running out? Given how many people visit the site I'm sceptical of that myself but I thought I'd share the thought.

[Andrew Brunelle]

I've never found one of those copywritten sales pages to be effective for me. When I see it, I immediately think that all it is is filler. It would impress me to see a straightforward sales page, like the one you had and I assume the one you have now. (I haven't seen your new one yet.) Just get to the point. I don't need a long-winded sales approach to sign up for a CGW. All I need is to know, basically, what it is about. A wall of test is preferable to shiny big words and the usual sales tactics used by Internet marketers.

Especially for something like the Conscious Growth Workshop. How conscious do you have to be to see through a slickly worded sales page? Not very. You know how to sell things, you know how to write reviews of other products, so you shouldn't doubt yourself when you are marketing your own product. Lesson learned.

[InterfaceLeader]

I've never bought anything from one of those standard 'sales letters' that flourish all over the internet.

I have, however, bought many things from people who have slowly built up a relationship with me, by sharing small parts of themselves and giving me value above and beyond what I might have expected.

[Angela]

I think those sales letters will soon be looked back upon with affectionate, blushing amused nostalgic horror, kind of like how we look at eighties fashion now.

[roxyruby]

That's sort of refreshing and relieving to hear. That maybe you don't have to hire an expensive copywriter to sell something well. Maybe you just need to be genuine and stick to the values and purpose of what business you are in.

It's true about relationships...probably all or most people that have bought from me or given me a donation know me more, or have been following and hearing from me & watching my youtube videos for a long time. The other people seem to just not trust me cause they don't know me enough yet.

I wonder sometimes, with everything being provided for free more and more, due to technology and the internet, and positions being taken over by machines and robots, how will you be able to sell something anymore? Maybe it will just have to be like a popularity thing. To be a "likable person" that might be the only way. Like a "celebrity". They're giving you money because of the relationship. But I guess being an entrepreneur is also about filling needs that people might gladly pay for.

So did you read just any book? Would you still recommend reading books that are 4 or 5 star on Amazon, and have good customer reviews?

That's my basis for a good book that's worth my time, what's yours?

As usual I thought like you were talking to me, "God" who knows everything ^ ^

Because I recently changed my website a bit so it's more similar to yours, changing the sidebar to the other side. I thought, "Well Steve Pavlina has his website like this & he's really smart, it must be the best thing to do" but also I remember seeing a "heat" image of a website where the majority of a persons attention goes to on a webpage.

[Smartass]

Your "audience" to which you sell your product obviously determines which method would work. The cheesy sail techniques might work very well with other audiences, but not on personally developed people like ourselves..

[irunthereforeiam]

I'm not sure if this sales letter experiment could be generalized to say that all sites should examine their sales letters. One difference that strikes to me is that the readers of this site are already Customer's to certain degree. There is already a huge rapport existing between the readers and Steve because people had been reading his posts for quite sometime. And the repeat visitors are here for a reason that they found value.
So the sales letter doesn't have to win them over AGAIN. They are already sold. So its seems to me that readers who want to come to seminar are looking for some degree of social proof ( to know that the seminar is indeed getting results) and figuring out resources(time and money). To accomplish this, the off-the-mill sales letter may not be the effective way.

Besides the tone of the sales letter is so different from Steve's tone of writing articles. Any regular reader would be able to feel that at a unconscious level. That's probably the reason the sales dropped with the sales letter..

My 2 cents..

lakshmi

[ClareDragonfly]

I am pretty delighted to hear that one of those cheesy marketing pages worked so poorly for you I hate those things.

Originally Posted by Andrew Brunelle

When I see it, I immediately think that all it is is filler. It would impress me to see a straightforward sales page, like the one you had and I assume the one you have now.

That's exactly how I feel about them. I've investigated several products that sounded interesting or were recommended by sources I trusted, only to find one of those sales pages and be quickly turned off. I did once buy from one of those sales pages--but I considered the product several times, often turning away because of the copy, and only bought it because I trusted the source and had read quite a bit about it.

Hopefully other people with good, truth-aligned products will see this and start experimenting.

[PattyK]

Thank you for sharing your results in this experiment...I was really pleased to hear them. (And you could count me in the camp who predicted increased sales.)

You can also count me as someone who would not have signed up for CGW if you had posted that cheesy sales page.

I think Lakshmi has a good point. Because I was a long time blog reader, I didn't need to be *sold* on attending the workshop. My thought process went like this:

1. Hey! Steve Pavlina is holding a workshop! Cool! When, where, how much? I was ready to sign up before I read anything.

2. When I read your "sales copy" I kinda chuckled...it just sounded like *you* - a bit long winded, detailed, covered all the bases, honest and straight to the point. I noticed the lack of manipulation and sales "technique" - and overall, I had the impression that it was really important to you that only people who were good fits for the program would be there. I found the lack of slickness really appealing.

I haven't looked at your latest iteration yet, but I think there is probably some ideal middle ground...where you use some persuasive tactics, and still keep your unique voice.

Patty
(Happy CGW II attendee - who would have been at CGW I if she wasn't being sued and required in court)

btw - I did find myself bristling just a bit at the term "accelerated learning techniques" because my immediate association is with the "repeat after me" fill-in-the-blank-like-a-trained-monkey thing that I've seen at other workshops. I can't imagine you doing that...but then again, I never imagined you putting up a long copy sales pages for CGW either.

[Andreas]

As someone who's read all 3 versions of the sales page, I am really pleased that the version that the copywriter wrote did not increase sales and in fact reduced sales. Why?

Because of this: GET REAL. The gimmicky writing style makes me nauseous. Doesn't come across real to me. Nope, nope, nope!

The new sales page is straightforward and honest, yes. And I especially enjoyed the photos and videos.

I think Angela nailed it when she said this:

I think those sales letters will soon be looked back upon with affectionate, blushing amused nostalgic horror, kind of like how we look at eighties fashion now.

I really hope so, Angela. I really hope so.

Also, when I read this, I wanted to give Steve a HUGE hug:

Most important of all is this. Don’t copy what I’m doing. What works for me may not work for you at all. Conduct your own experiments to figure out what works best for you as an individual, whether you’re pursuing increased sales, better health, greater happiness, etc.

Yes, yes, YES! Thank you Steve for getting this message out. You need to figure out what works for you by conducting your own experiments. I'm really impressed that Steve admits that his following the traditional path didn't bring him happiness.

Thanks for having the balls (nuts?) to admit this, Steve. And thanks for using your considerable influence to get this message out. It's one of the most powerful truths you've ever written about on the blog. (perhaps the most liberating, at least)

[ArthurHung]

Is it possible that the best sales techniques may actually be authenticity and straightforwardness? --Steve's Article

It's interesting, I recently made a post, a straightforward, high value post with the intention of offering EVEN MORE value through creating a product other people could possible find helpful, and no one bothered to answer.

Here was the post.

Here’s what I’m offering. Here’s what it costs. Take it or leave it. --Steve's Article

I basically have that attitude to everything and everyone I see in my life. I'm willing to go all out, use all my money, even die if I have to to give as much value as I possibly can to you if called for by the universe, and I know whatever happens will be the best for everyone.

[Abel]

Interesting results... that tells us what "copywriters" tell you might not be what they claim. Results speak for itself whether a copy is effective or not. But nothing beats a copy that comes from the heart, straight forward, and non-manipulative. To top it off, a mutual relationship that takes time to build.

[Chris_1977]

Originally Posted by ArthurHung

It's interesting, I recently made a post, a straightforward, high value post with the intention of offering EVEN MORE value through creating a product other people could possible find helpful, and no one bothered to answer.

If I see that post I cannot say I am surprised you are not getting any responses. It is about as user-unfriendly as it gets. First you mention three names in the first two paragraphs. "Nathan Hangen", "Clay Collins" and "SpiritSentient". I happen not to know any of those people and so you have already lost me. Next, the question becomes why you need to start out mentioning that they gave you the idea. Wouldn't it be lame if Steve started his CGW page with "Once I saw Tony Robbins do a seminar and I thought that was kinda cool...."? Another question is what relationship you have to "SpiritSentient". Apparently, that is you yourself, but that is not immediately clear, so I have to think about that too. I hate it when people make me think about something that they could easily have mentioned. Next, we arrive at your questions. (Well, actually, we don't because you have already lost your audience). The first one sounds like you have as little idea what to do as your poor readers so you will just ask some random people on a forum. If Steve does this, he will get suggestions because everybody here already knows what kind of things he does. If you ask these questions on your own site where people know you it might work, but not with people who do not know you. If you do this on another site, you first have to introduce yourself in a way that much more compelling.

[ellie]

All I can say is "ouch" for the copywriter.
That would surely rattle ones belief in their skills.

[theknightwhosaysni-NI]

Interesting !

About this :

Here’s what I’m offering. Here’s what it costs. Take it or leave it. --Steve's Article

I think that it only works if there is already a relationship between you and the people you're talking too.

Actually, there's so much presell in your blog (all the free articles) that people trust you easily I think.
It looks like what is called content marketing, which is a cool way to sell and do marketing.

An interesting thing to know would be : how many people actually signed up for your workshops without knowing your blog first ?

I'm pretty sure there aren't many. Your real conversion machine is your blog, so it does make sense to just have a descriptive page as a sale page. When they arrive on the sales page, people already know you, they already trust you, and they probably already know from their own experience that you can help them grow. So they don't need to be convinced by a sale page.

Anyway have you ever heard of the technique called "launches" created by Jeff Walker?. I think it would be perfect to boost your sales.

[DonnaBiz]

I registered for CGW#3 before the change to the "cheesy" sales page. But I already knew I wanted to attend since CGW#1. It was just a matter of time and convenience as to WHEN. I was pre-sold, but I was very disappointed to see the high-pressure page when it appeared.
I'm so glad Steve is back to what works for him!

[Curtis2011]

I liked that you mentioned the conflict between profits and the path with a heart.

This is something I have thought about many times. Is it possible to be a great business man and be following your heart? Do the two realms even mix at all?

There are many people who sell good products with those strong marketing techniques. I have bought some of them and been satisfied (for instance you advertise the David DeAngelo products, and they even use those sales tactics - in fact they basically invented them). It is just the bad people who sell crap in a box that makes everyone else look bad.

However, I do wonder if "hard" sales tactics are even needed. I think that people, at some level, would appreciate someone just being honest and straightforward with them.

Also, a favorite quote from Hawkins... "the truth speaks for itself" - as he has talked about advertising a little bit in one or two of his books. He said that honest commercials would always leave the customer with a positive feeling about a product, and dishonest ones would leave people with a negative feeling about it. That has to convert to sales in some way or another

[ArthurHung]

Originally Posted by Chris_1977

If I see that post I cannot say I am surprised you are not getting any responses. It is about as user-unfriendly as it gets. First you mention three names in the first two paragraphs. "Nathan Hangen", "Clay Collins" and "SpiritSentient". I happen not to know any of those people and so you have already lost me. Next, the question becomes why you need to start out mentioning that they gave you the idea. Wouldn't it be lame if Steve started his CGW page with "Once I saw Tony Robbins do a seminar and I thought that was kinda cool...."? Another question is what relationship you have to "SpiritSentient". Apparently, that is you yourself, but that is not immediately clear, so I have to think about that too. I hate it when people make me think about something that they could easily have mentioned. Next, we arrive at your questions. (Well, actually, we don't because you have already lost your audience). The first one sounds like you have as little idea what to do as your poor readers so you will just ask some random people on a forum. If Steve does this, he will get suggestions because everybody here already knows what kind of things he does. If you ask these questions on your own site where people know you it might work, but not with people who do not know you. If you do this on another site, you first have to introduce yourself in a way that much more compelling.

Thanks so much for responding, feedback is greatly appreciated I value your opinions and will definitely give them consideration.

If my phrasing of my post aimed at creating something the world loves+wants is 'lame', then I wonder what kind of response you'd expect after your own post -- how life views *your* particular phrasing of your feedback It reminds me very much of the quotes "We are what we see in others" and "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind," but hey, I think we all agree my mind works in strange ways.

Anyone feel they can offer more value, more support, or more constructive criticism than Chris_1977? I'm cheerfully open to it, and if not, hey, I'm super-happy for even this guidance

Love this forum, love you guys, love helping the world in whatever (apparently super-user-unfriendly, to some,) ways I can

[Lucidism]

Makes sense. People looking for a Conscious Growth Workshop were not likely to respond well to an Unconscious Sales Letter.

[Savage]

Originally Posted by Chris_1977

If I see that post I cannot say I am surprised you are not getting any responses. It is about as user-unfriendly as it gets. First you mention three names in the first two paragraphs. "Nathan Hangen", "Clay Collins" and "SpiritSentient". I happen not to know any of those people and so you have already lost me.

Agreed. The lack of replies doesn't surprise me. The original post seems more like anti-value than value. Whatever it's trying to say, it's too muddled.

[Jon]

Does anyone still have that sales letter? Unfortunately it's not available on web.archive.org

I'd love to use it as an example

[jonas]

I signed up for CGW #1
for the record: that original salesletter was the best salepage i had ever read
i loved it, and signed up almost immediately. I liked the honesty, the "im not gonna sell you" attitude,

When i read the second salesletter, before i knew that a copywriter was hired, i thought to myself: hmmmm.... somethings going on here, this is not right, hmmmm... what is this, doesnt taste exactly right

Its not only the tacticts, but one more thing...

Probably, most of the people reading the salesletter will have massive experience reading Steves blogposts, so when they detect that the salesletter is very different, or even slightly different, from Steves original writing an alarm goes off.

Its really cool that the most authentic letter sells more.
Im glad to hear that!

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by theknightwhosaysni-NI

....An interesting thing to know would be : how many people actually signed up for your workshops without knowing your blog first ?

I'm sure Steve could find out.
Or perhaps he already knows.

But I wouldn't be surprised if that number were Zero.

[hilar]

Originally Posted by Jon

Does anyone still have that sales letter? Unfortunately it's not available on web.archive.org

I'd love to use it as an example

i double that. the comparison could be of great value. i can easily imagine some professional cheesy sales page, but would love to have more exact insight. steve? please.

[ArthurHung]

Lol... yeah guys, I- I got that, I understand it was phrased poorly *and* muddled, and I already agreed with and accepted Chris's assessment of that. (I may even go back and edit/re-phrase it thanks to all your feedback )

As for 'anti-value', perhaps I misunderstood what I've been reading and learning on your site Steve, (which I'm totally open to) -- I can't say that I've always picked up on every single thing clearly or instantly (even though I'd love to ) -- I'm under the impression that value comes largely from "intention", and that you've always encouraged people to passionately put out their best, and then to watch good things come rolling in. That sh***y phrasing was my best at the time, and the idea was still for me to create a product (or even a free-resource) that helps others and caters directly to their interests.

I feel that in my recent response I've shown a new level of growth and phrasing but if my response, and even this one response, is not appreciated and people aren't feeling my passion, growth, and kind intentions -- I'll definitely take that further into consideration, that's cool. I know that I'm offering the best I have to a group of people I feel connected to Either way, thank you both again for your input, guidance, opinions and general awesomeness (love the forums, love life )

Interestingly, when I read things that don't at first seem to provide value, I like to use my thoughts, imagination and perspective to come up with creative ways to 'make' them into value. I love to really stretch my powers of appreciation and I find it great practice. It may not be for everyone, if anyone's interested, my friend Jason wrote a bit about it in a post yesterday morning (well, it went up today), called "How to turn Bull**** into Value", and if this feels offensive or un-tasteful or inappropriate or hated, I encourage you to edit/delete/or do whatever feels right to you.

I've followed these forums and Steve's work very closely for years and I can't express my gratitude and appreciation enough for every experience I've had here.

Rock on everyone