Questions for darkworkers

[ahimel]

I'm thinking through implications of Steve's latest post on polarization. I think I incline naturally towards the love-based actions, but I can definitely understand the fear-based mentality. That is, given infinite time, money, and skill, what I will choose to do is to help others. But I fear that other people would not make the same choice, and so I don't want others to have power over me - I don't feel safe around other people.

What follows are my thoughts and questions. They are meant to stimulate discussion of the concept, without clogging up the actual thread on Steve's blog post. Anyone is of course welcome to answer. But I think darkworkers will have the best ability to answer, especially the questions about my biases.

It seems to me entirely possible that one could meet the definition of darkworker (fear-based, enjoy power, in it for yourself) and still be a nice person (Star Wars notwithstanding). The classic image of the always-acts-in-their-own-best-interest thief is clearly wrong... because that guy always ends up getting thumped. So it wasn't in his best interest! Especially in a flat world, there's a lot of personal incentive to be nice to people.

So is the opposite stereotype also false? It seems to me that if you're out to help people, it would be extremely hard to be a jerk. But maybe that's the result of my bias -- I'd like to hear from darkworkers on this one. I've definitely met people (been people) who were trying to help but went overboard and ended up irritating the assistee.... but those seem to be fear-based helping... I wanted to be seen as helpful, rather than to help.

It seems to me that one can't be a pure lightworker without achieving peace about the afterlife (whether that's belief in reincarnation, heaven, or acceptance that you will not continue after death) because most fears have their root in fear of death. Fear of not having money stems from fear of not being able to buy food/shelter which stems from fear of starving to death or dying of exposure. Fear of lack of power stems from fear of having others control you, which is really rarely fear that they'll make you sit in a luxurious room and do what you want all day.... it's fear that they'll hurt you. Fear of pain is a valuable evolutionary reflex to keep you from getting killed. Fear of spiders, heights, water, small spaces stems from fear of poisonous bites, falling to your death, drowning, or being crushed. So as long as you still fear death, fear will continue to creep back into your actions. (This was, in fact, a major theme in Star Wars III) What do others think?

How does it feel to be "on the dark side"? Do you mostly fit in, and people only know that you're a darkworker if you tell them? Or do your actions end up being different enough that you get noticed? I assume, given society's approach to light/dark, that you end up being labeled "deviant" and therefore outcast. Are you at peace with that, the way I'm at peace with being a female mathematician? Or do you fear persecution, and build up defenses? Do you get to trust anyone? Or do you hold back even from your closest friends?

Feel free to post your own questions -- we may have to split this off into several threads, but let's start with at least listing the questions here.

[Erock]

Yeah looking at experiences in my own life, I definitely know some darkworkers. They are not mean, or evil. In fact, they seem more centered then the individuals stuck in the middle. They are not immoral in anyway, and, according to society, are probably even more moral then individuals in the middle. I think some people might look at the term darkworker, or "fear-based" polarization and think of it as a bad thing, but it isn't.

A few characteristics of the guys I know: competitive, successful, very confident, well educated, selfish, rich, good with women, tough...

None of these are negative in anyway, and in fact, most of them have positive connotations in our society.

Erock

[smallstar]

Cheers,

I wonder how darkworkers would conduct something like the 1 million dollar experiment. It seems that the lightworkers have the advantage of cooperation... what would the darkworkers have to compensate this?

[Erin Pavlina]

Originally Posted by smallstar

Cheers,

I wonder how darkworkers would conduct something like the 1 million dollar experiment. It seems that the lightworkers have the advantage of cooperation... what would the darkworkers have to compensate this?

Drive, ambition, courage, focus.

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by Erock

A few characteristics of the guys I know: competitive, successful, very confident, well educated, selfish, rich, good with women, tough...

None of these are negative in anyway, and in fact, most of them have positive connotations in our society.

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

Drive, ambition, courage, focus.

Sounds like 'darkworkers' have active root chakras.

Originally Posted by smallstar

Cheers,It seems that the lightworkers have the advantage of cooperation... what would the darkworkers have to compensate this?

The aforementioned unbridled root chakra.

[Steve Pavlina]

Darkworkers use the energy of fear as the source of their drive and ambition. Darkworkers don't perform "evil" actions from the need to be sadistic. Rather they focus on efficiency to maximize their personal gain.

For example, when I graduated college in 3 semesters, I used fear energy all the way. I was focused and driven to get what I wanted for myself, and I took an expedient path to get there. The idea of intentionally hurting others along the way was as irrelevant as helping them. I simply knew what I wanted and wouldn't let anything stand in my way.

What makes a darkworker appear evil at times is when you become an obstacle... a thorn in their side.

[Erin Pavlina]

Like the Borg. I see darkworkers much like the Borg. Get in their way and they'll take you out. Don't bother them and they won't bother you. But talk about a species driven to get what they want and not letting anything stand in their way.

[magickmystik]

Steve / Erin,
are these darkworker and lightworker qualities, similar with David Hawkin's comparision between high and low energy in his "Power patterns in Human attitudes" - chapter 9, book "Power vs Force"?

[Michelle]

I still feel somewhat ashamed of my Darkworker side, but also feel that the Darkworker energy gave me what it took to leave my abusive family situation at the age of 17 and move to Europe. Without that fear of becoming like my family, of never escaping the anger and negativity and never being able to set my song free - I would not have made it. Everything Erin wrote above - drive, ambition, courage, focus - propelled me out.

Admittedly, I feel awful for looking out solely for myself in that situation, but I was conscious of no other option in my life at that time.

Now, where my life is more stable, positive and healthy I feel I can slowly allow my Lightworker side to blossom while in more acceptance of my own Dark Side.

[John Wesley]

Bertrand Russell said that if everyone was motivated by enlightened self interest the world would be much better off. The key is enlightened. Most people don't really understand what is good for them in the long run. They are overcome by greed, jealousy, or anger.

The speech I quoted by Russell is amazing. You can read the whole thing here: Nobel Prize in Literature 1950 - Presentation Speech. It will change the way you think about things. I should post about it on my blog sometime.

[nantucketsunset]

Is looking out for yourself (especially to get out of a negative situation as Michelle describes in the previous post) necessarily "dark" or "fear-based"? Maybe looking out for yourself is the only way to survive a difficult patch in your life, so that you can go on to contribute to others. Staying in a soul-destroying, confining situation so as not to upset other people surely isn't a love-based reaction?

I know lots of self-centred, greed-based, competitive people, having gone to a top MBA programme and worked in management consulting. I always stood out like a sore thumb with my personality and ideals.

That's why I left that world where the sociopath is king to do a gentle, ivory-tower PhD--whereupon I got stabbed in the back and bullied by a fellow academic, who used more deviousness and ill-will than I even would have imagined coming from my former business-world colleagues.

I also have just worked for (and resigned from) a substantial, successful family-run business where the family members treated their employees quite, quite appallingly, and held each other to a very complicated set of unwritten rules that often resulted in the weaker family members being totally controlled by the powerful members. --I innocently had expected a family-based business to be nicer and more cooperative than a business made up of unrelated people. Wow: to my considerable cost both emotionally and financially, I could not have been more wrong.

Even in the cutthroat business world, acting with cooperation, kindness, generosity can be quite effective and successful. Not just because people don't expect it and are taken by surprise, but also because it simply works (e.g., see books such as "Co-opetition").

There are theories that business and economics students study about the different sorts of choices people can make when interacting with each other and the part that self-interest plays (basically, the decision to cooperate with others, versus the decision to "grab your piece and run"), of which the "Prisoner's Dilemma" is the most famous. Even the greedy, self-interested, competitive people can see the logic and proven results of these experiments/games -- and therefore they act cooperatively because it is logically best for themselves. (At least they know they should, even if their human behavior gets the best of them during the situation as it unfolds, and they can't help but cut and run though it means they are left with a smaller profit!)

[Simmiah]

I also have a similar question as magick:

How does this fit in with Power vs. Force? I am confused as the highest achievements in David's scale were achieving Peace, Love, Joy states & according to what I gathered of what Steve wrote Lightworkers achieve these higher states when they are more conscious.

Second question:

I know people who are driven by fear & are mixed. They send out mixed messages a lot that I've seen of wanting love say from a marriage or friendship but then sabotage their own efforts due to say being terribly afraid of being in that very marriage or friendship! They are not Darkworkers then are they? Are they unconscious? Where do these people fit in? Where I see it.. they are mixed & confused & definitely not choosing any polarity but going back & forth constantly & causing themselves infinite frustration.

I am starting to wonder if the unconscious people rocking in the middle cause more damage than either conscious Darkworkers or Lightworkers because those people are more aware & enlightened. So the ones that are confused in the middle are the ones we most often see in jails or at the bar getting arrested by the police? Am I correct in stating this? Any answers?

[John Prophet]

For those of you who are truly curious about what goes on in the mind of a Darkworker, I’ve been doing a blog about this very type of philosophy and way of life for a few of months now and it’s something that I’m very passionate about. Because this blog is designed to empower and reinforce the ideas of people who are already thinking along these lines, many of the things that I say maybe a little extreme (showmanship). I will warn you that some of the content of this site may be philosophically offensive, depending on your particular beliefs and worldview. But, if you really want to learn something about us Darkworker types, and can keep a level perspective; then you’re welcome to take a look.

Twisted Jenius- Evil Rant

[Adam]

Wow, John. I'm impressed. Those are some very good articles, so far. (I've only read the first four)

Interestingly enough, that fourth rant follows the arguments against TV that lightworkers use as well... It's odd how a person's motives can be completely different, yet the results are still the same.

[nantucketsunset]

wow mr prophet, your site is quite professional-looking! is that a padded wall as a background? :-)

i don't see a contact form on your site, so here are a few questions for your site that occured to me as i was skimming it. i realize that steve's forum is not the place to continue this discussion, but maybe you can apply my comments back to your own site.

about your "night people" post - they are people who tend to feel sleepy after about 1 am, and most usually go to sleep by 4 am or, as you say, dawn at the latest. i think a more accurate term would be "evening people", which you would probably be happier with. research shows that about 10% of people are die-hard evening people (biologically they are wired this way, and this can be easily tested by charting one's body temperature every hour throughout the day and seeing which pattern the rise and fall makes, which the nerd in me did on myself when i was 14 years old). i'm an evening person through and through.

however, there must be very few people who have YOUR hours by choice, going to sleep in the afternoon instead of the early morning. and most of them probably work an overnight shift somewhere and take advantage of their biological proclivity. i wonder what your temperature pattern is.

do you see ayn rand as an influence as well?

what are your views on male-female relationships, infidelity, that kind of thing?

have you worked in business? if so, have you been successful at it by utilizing your approach? do you find that a lot of people (esp. men) agree with your views?

there are some movies that came to mind when i saw your site -- have you ever seen In the Company of Men? Good, and very chilling. Phew. If you haven't seen it you might enjoy renting it.

sorry for the random nature of this message - it's the middle of the night where i live :-)

[ahimel]

Originally Posted by Michelle

I still feel somewhat ashamed of my Darkworker side, but also feel that the Darkworker energy gave me what it took to leave my abusive family situation at the age of 17 and move to Europe. Without that fear of becoming like my family, of never escaping the anger and negativity and never being able to set my song free - I would not have made it. Everything Erin wrote above - drive, ambition, courage, focus - propelled me out.

In that case, I think the fear was probably justified. In some ways, it's not even fear. Why fear being angry and negative unless you already value being loving and positive?

Another question: Does "love" have to include all of humanity? Or just giving to a cause bigger than yourself? I think we could all agree that if you devoted your life to building wells in Africa to create clean drinking water for remote villages that this is a love-based life, even though technically only rural Africans benefit. What about someone who becomes a doctor in the US because they want to help people be healthy? Only the richest 5% or whatever of the population benefit, but she's still out to help others. What about someone who becomes a doctor, but focuses on new treatments for cancer? Now, due to expense, only the super-rich of the super-richest countries benefit, but she's still saving children's lives. What about a scholar who isn't in it for "humanity" at all, but is devoted to finding truth? What about a monk who has barely any interaction with the outside world, but devotes himself to Jesus and being the best Christian he can be?

Or does it matter what the cause is at all, as long as you're pushing out rather than pulling in?

(Please pardon any unclear or poorly-worded sections. This occured to me in the middle of the night and I just woke up.

[Rosie327]

Thanks, Steve, for a much-needed reality check. I realized how ironic it was to be belowing angrily at my kids to be quiet so I could finish reading an article about coming from a polarity of love...yes, I need to be more conscious of that and tap into my love for them more often.

The article reminded me of my own struggles with panic attacks. Sometimes I would get so angry about it that that would give me the strength to battle it. With white knuckles and shaky knees I would eventually arrive at my destination in spite of the panic. Another approach (Dr. Claire Weekes) is to accept the panic and use youu self-talk to reassure yourself that you can accomplish your goal even with the panic along for the ride. In both cases I got to where I was going, but in one scenario I was tense and exhausted and in the other I was relieved and recharged.

[ahimel]

Originally Posted by Adam

Interestingly enough, that fourth rant follows the arguments against TV that lightworkers use as well... It's odd how a person's motives can be completely different, yet the results are still the same.

I've also only made it through four, but it's very interesting. I commented on a couple of the articles, rather than putting the comments here.

It's interesting that some of the same results come from very different attitudes. This is the section I found extremely "darkworkery" (emphasis mine)

"If you find yourself being drawn into concern for other people(or anything for that matter) and you know you don’t want to be, try this exercise: First decide that who or whatever is doing this, is doing it for its own self interest and can only hurt you. Once you realized this, decide that its actions will not affect you. You cannot always control what’s happening around you, but you can control how you will react to it. "

I've run into the same problem, and use a very similar solution. I don't care whether I can participate in conversations about Survivor or Lost, and sometimes I don't have time to deal with people's complaints (especially some former coworkers who had nothing but complaints.) But my explanation looks more like this:

"If you find yourself being drawn into other's problems and you know you don't want to be, try this exercise: Smile at the other person, but excuse yourself from the conversation. Go back your office, or wherever you have to go to be alone. Remind yourself of your goals, and that you can't achieve them without focus. Then determine whether there's anything you can do to help with their problem without sacrificing your integrity. If so, do it. If not, avoid that topic of conversation whenever possible."

A fascinating comparison. Thanks for the insights.

[ahimel]

Another very darkworkery quote: (again, emphasis mine)

"So, when you're walking a dark and lonely road at all hours of the night and you begin thinking to yourself that most other people would be intimidated or on edge in such a situation, you can smile with a sense of sinister superiority, secure in the knowledge that you have nothing to fear, because you are the most capable and most terrifying thing out there."

As I said above, I think a lightworker would say the same thing.... except it would end with.... 'because nothing can truly harm you.'

[Rod Logan]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Darkworkers use the energy of fear as the source of their drive and ambition.

See, I disagree with this. Why does it have to be the energy of fear? Wouldn't another way of saying this be using the energy of power?

Instead of a love-focus, there is a power-focus.

[Glass Joe]

I know this discussion of the Light-side vs. the Dark-side is all for fun, but I want to go out on a limb and say that I think darkworkers and lightworkers both can come from a place of love, rather than one coming from love only and the other coming from fear only. There's still a polarity, but rather than love vs. fear, it's more like the "love of self" vs. the "love of others".

This might sound like just semantics at first, but the distinction I guess I want to make hear is that fear usually means running away from something, and not really achieving or creating anything. And I don't think the Dark-side runs from anything any more than the Light-side, but just looks at things differently, and wants different things. I see it more like a darkworker loving to be selfish and a lightworker equally loving to be selfless. It's more like the love-based emotions of "passion" vs. the love-based emotions of "devotion". One focuses inward, the other focuses outward. Yin and Yang. They are separate, yet both are related.

Now that I think about it, you can probably also say that both sides do come from a place of fear-based emotions too (like fear of loss), but that's another thread, and for now I just wanted to post about the love aspect.

Also, I want to mention that the idea of love (lightworker) vs. fear (darkworker), as opposed to this idea of "dark love" vs. "light love", is perfectly fine to use as a map too. Ultimately, people feel whatever they feel anyway, and want what they want, regardless of the labels we put on them or how we try to map out these polarities. But it's still fun to talk about this stuff, and try to map it out, in order understand our own inner drives and behaviors better.

Personally, I like this "dark love" vs. "light love" perspective better than love vs. fear because we can see how each side can fervently believe they are right and the other is wrong. This makes the potential for conflict much more powerful. I mean, everyone wants to believe they are right and on the side of love, truth, and what is best. And I don't think anyone wants to admit that their whole life is based-on and driven-by fear. Who wants to be on the fear-based team?

Below are the Jedi and Sith codes I found on Wikipedia earlier today. And I think they summarize the lightworker and darkworker mindset pretty well. To outside observers, it looks like "good" vs. "evil". But from each side's perspective, they each just want what they believe is right, and each are simply doing what they love to do. One side loves to be selfless, the other side loves to be selfish.

Jedi Code:

Jedi are the guardians of peace in the galaxy.
Jedi use their powers to defend and protect, never to attack others.
Jedi respect all life, in any form.
Jedi serve others rather than ruling over them, for the good of the galaxy.
Jedi seek to improve themselves through knowledge and training.

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