Questions for darkworkers

[theknightwhosaysni-NI]

Hey Kingston, thanks for your reply.
Actually I see where these two path leads, more or less like you describe it.

What I am curious about is what does darkworker enlightenment look like...u know, is it possible to feel the oneness of everything and to know that everything is One through the dark path? Stopping identifying with the physical body, how can one continue serving his/her avatar?

That's why I asked the question "Isn't the dark path a no end path like the religions seem to say?" , I mean, u know, a way leading away from our true nature.
Anyway.

Narz, I agree the Sith code "seems" cooler. It is only appearance I think. Most of the people associate in their mind the fact to serve the greater good with "being a nice guy", maybe even some kind of wussy that is behaving like his mom told him. In reality this is absolutely wrong.
A true lightworker with a high consciousness is (in my opinion at least) more of a leader. He decides, he shows the way, nobody can truly influence him against his will. He has humor, people feel good around him (or her), but he can ************ing kick asses of people, especially those who really need it (only he kicks their asses if it is good for them, and maybe if they asked for help also).
He is a leader but he doesn't give a damn about leading. I personnaly find that quite cool.

Most of all, their ARE free, and they get victory from this freedom. They don't wait to have some kind of military victory like the Sith to feel free.

[Kingston]

Originally Posted by theknightwhosaysni-NI

What I am curious about is what does darkworker enlightenment look like...u know, is it possible to feel the oneness of everything and to know that everything is One through the dark path?

That's why I asked the question "Isn't the dark path a no end path like the religions seem to say?" , I mean, u know, a way leading away from our true nature.
Anyway.

You are welcome, knight!

Read my post in the polarity thread about my view on religion.

Darkworker enlightenment, in my not so humble opinion, will probably be based something like this, depending on your intellectual background. This comes from the level of consiousness of Reason.

'In history there is much pain and misery on the large scale, and much fear and ignorance on the small individual scale.
With biology we know that all living things fight for food, sex, attention and space, first to survive and then to prosper. Some have it easier than others, but they all have to fight for it, sometimes in groups. I am alive NOW, and will certainly DIE. What I do with my time is up to ME. I will avoid pain and weakness and search for pleasure and power. MY decisions shape MY future. I feel grateful for that.'

This is some sort of existential hedonism. When you understand why this is such a good, safe option, and accept the fate attached to it (there WILL be negative consequences), then you conquer your doubts. You become ENDARKEND.

Note that I am not at this level yet. I only have glimpse. Someone please improve if possible.

[ahimel]

Originally Posted by Kingston

The "hell" of the religions is a fiction to scare people into obedience, and has made the earth a more dark place...

I'm definitely skeptical about the literal hell of Christianity, as an afterlife. But I believe that the concepts of heaven and hell have great power because they are extrapolations or consolidations or archetypes of conditions that exist on earth.

As such, I think one of the primary differences between heaven and hell is the company you keep. And I'd rather live in the company of lightworkers than the company of darkworkers.

Of course, many darkworkers chose that route because they prefer to have no company at all. Which is fine as long as you like the only company you end up getting (which is you.)

[Narz]

Originally Posted by ahimel

And I'd rather live in the company of lightworkers than the company of darkworkers.

From what I've read thus far, it seems like darkworkers are a heck of a lot more fun.

[ahimel]

Originally Posted by Narz

From what I've read thus far, it seems like darkworkers are a heck of a lot more fun.

Depends on what you want out of your company. With a lightworker, I can usually rely on getting help when I need it, and not having to worry about watching my own interests constantly. The "Everyone needs to watch out for themselves" model of the darkworkers is perfectly reasonable, but I find it tiring. In a group of lightworkers, everyone will consider the effect of their actions on others before doing something. It doesn't mean they won't do something that hurts me, but they'll usually avoid it if possible.

I think it really comes down to what you need to have to consider an evening "fun". I also think many people have a much more stodgy image of lightworkers than they need to. Being a lightworker doesn't mean you have to be a nun or a monk and frown at every little thing that's not perfect and morally pure. I have no problem spending a friday evening lighting pianos on fire... as long as it's a non-functioning piano that belongs to somebody in the arsonist's group, and in a location where it won't set other things on fire. (My cousin did this a few weeks ago in Wyoming. Pickup trucks. Beer. Music Majors. Good times.)

I ran across this quote a while back, and it matches my experience so far:

“Imaginary evil is romantic and varied; real evil is gloomy, monotonous, barren, boring. Imaginary good is boring; real good is always new, marvelous, intoxicating.” Simone Weil

[Kingston]

Originally Posted by ahimel

I'm definitely skeptical about the literal hell of Christianity, as an afterlife. But I believe that the concepts of heaven and hell have great power because they are extrapolations or consolidations or archetypes of conditions that exist on earth.

Well said. They are archetypes indeed. In de company of lightworkers there is no 'you', in de company of darkworkers their is only 'you'. Both 'you's are an illusion from the viewpoint of the other. From their own viewpoint they are the zenith of beauty and power (or love and strength if you will). The realm between light and dark is human life.

[Narz]

Originally Posted by ahimel

Depends on what you want out of your company. With a lightworker, I can usually rely on getting help when I need it, and not having to worry about watching my own interests constantly. The "Everyone needs to watch out for themselves" model of the darkworkers is perfectly reasonable, but I find it tiring. In a group of lightworkers, everyone will consider the effect of their actions on others before doing something. It doesn't mean they won't do something that hurts me, but they'll usually avoid it if possible.

I think it really comes down to what you need to have to consider an evening "fun". I also think many people have a much more stodgy image of lightworkers than they need to. Being a lightworker doesn't mean you have to be a nun or a monk and frown at every little thing that's not perfect and morally pure. I have no problem spending a friday evening lighting pianos on fire... as long as it's a non-functioning piano that belongs to somebody in the arsonist's group, and in a location where it won't set other things on fire. (My cousin did this a few weeks ago in Wyoming. Pickup trucks. Beer. Music Majors. Good times.)

I ran across this quote a while back, and it matches my experience so far:

“Imaginary evil is romantic and varied; real evil is gloomy, monotonous, barren, boring. Imaginary good is boring; real good is always new, marvelous, intoxicating.” Simone Weil

There's probably something to that.

That said I don't believe in "lightworkers" or "darkworkers" and think everyone has a bit of both in them.

[Klamachpin]

First, some groundwork. I'm not polarized, but in keeping with the terms for purposes of effective communication, I have strong darkside tendencies. In addition, my upbringing encouraged a darkside viewpoint, and as such I'm most apt at aligning with that point of view. The primary reason I have not polarized as of yet is due to not quite figuring out how to accomplish goals of contribution and legacy via utilizing fear energy. This, however, is not something I ask advice upon – I will only believe my own rationalizations based on my own experiences.

I also wish to put forth that I'm not as well-read as some of you appear to be. I am not familiar with the works of Ayn Rand, Goethe, or Nietzsche, nor do I wish to be. I have other goals in greater need of my attention. I don't subscribe to multiples upon multiples of commercialized blogs. Should I find something or someone that grabs my interest, I will follow it, but I'm not one to stockpile loads of what I consider to be useless information.

One of the biggest problems I see in these discussions is a confusion of terms. The inward/outward pairing causes the issue of balance to appear. The light/dark pairing has issues with social conditioning. The love/fear pairing brings into play a relation between polarity and stages of awareness that is not true. Other pairings I’ve seen on the boards are just as inadequate – these concepts are difficult to condense into words. What's important, though, is attempting to understand the concepts without giving power to the words themselves. Recognizing the words as simple descriptors by detaching the social connotations/emotions from those words helps greatly in understanding the concepts put forth.

That being said, I’m going to follow with quotes that have sparked a response from previous postings. I’ll attempt to give the responses from my darkside point of view. These responses are not point-by-point arguments, rather they are simple responses meant to convey an attitude as a whole.

That is, given infinite time, money, and skill, what I will choose to do is to help others. But I fear that other people would not make the same choice, and so I don't want others to have power over me - I don't feel safe around other people.

Given infinite time, money, and skill, what I will choose to do is also to help others. It is just that I'm not active in giving help to others. Instead, I choose to become a resource that others can draw upon. This way, I'm sure that the help I produce will be quality aid to those whom would benefit. Should I simply give great quantities of limitless aid, I'd not only be unsure of if my help was affecting the right people, but my help could potentially be harmful to those whom misinterpret it.

It is not what I fear that motivates me to help others - it is the recognition that others have not conquered their fears yet. By ruling over my own fears I serve as an example to those whom are powerless against their fears. By increasing my own knowledge, status, and wisdom I increase my visibility to those looking for a beacon of hope. By requiring that those I befriend help me, I teach those I aid to recognize their responsibility of contribution while those I refuse are shown my truth that nothing comes without a cost.

It seems to me that if you're out to help people, it would be extremely hard to be a jerk. But maybe that's the result of my bias -- I'd like to hear from darkworkers on this one. I've definitely met people (been people) who were trying to help but went overboard and ended up irritating the assistee.... but those seem to be fear-based helping... I wanted to be seen as helpful, rather than to help.

From my perspective, it would be extremely easy for a lightworker to be a jerk. Lightworkers constantly give of themselves in the best manner they can provide. They focus on giving quantity. Unfortunately, many of those whom a lightworker seeks to aid do not wish to receive assistance, and those who wish to receive may not be satisfied with the help the lightworker provides. In either poor scenario, the lightworker is seen as a jerk.

With the darkside method, people come to take aid from you, and if you are smart about it you allow them to take what they believe they need from you. There are limits, of course. You must watch over those whom you aid to make sure they are not acting out of greed or sloth. The only ways you can be seen as a jerk is if there is a misunderstanding between you and your client, either actively (i.e. “no, you can do your homework on your own!”) or passively (i.e. “sorry, I don’t understand multiple variable calculus either”).

How does it feel to be "on the dark side"? Do you mostly fit in, and people only know that you're a darkworker if you tell them? Or do your actions end up being different enough that you get noticed? I assume, given society's approach to light/dark, that you end up being labeled "deviant" and therefore outcast. Are you at peace with that, the way I'm at peace with being a female mathematician? Or do you fear persecution, and build up defenses? Do you get to trust anyone? Or do you hold back even from your closest friends?

The vast majority of society would not label me as a “darkworker” per say, since they aren't familiar with the term. They will, however, identify qualities I exude that are consistent with darkworkers, while saying I’m a good guy, if easily taken advantage of. The “easily taken advantage of” part is a difference of perception, though. It’s not that I’m easily manipulated, but rather that I readily submit to acts of aid that meet two conditions: it draws upon my resources in a useful manner, and it does not significantly hurt me or my goals. People are often surprised at the resistance I put up to something that goes against my values – even if it is something commonly perceived as harmless. This often puts me at odds with the in-crowds, though I am not seen as specifically deviant or outcast… just different and sometimes confusing.

When I was younger and working with near darkside polarity, I didn’t trust anyone with my true motivations and built up walls upon walls to defend myself should the issue arise. I believe now, though, that that response was an act of my awareness being at the level of fear, rather than a result of polarity. I am currently in process of taking down those walls.

I have difficulty to imagine how can a darkworker continue his path in the after life. How can he seek Power in a non-physical reality? I mean, what do the darker worker do after life? Is there a kind of "hell" where to carry on competing for power? Does this journey ultimately leads to the Source as well? Or is it just a no end path like the big religions seem to say?

This is not something I can say with any level of sureness, since I am unclear about the after-life myself. Assuming that we continue on in a non-physical reality, there is always knowledge to be gained, experiences to endure. Omnipotent perfectionism is a constant goal, and from my understanding of the Source, to become perfect and omnipotent is to become one with the Source. Now, that understanding of the Source could be totally off-base, but the attitude is not.

As far as competition goes, remember that not all competition comes from other humans. It can be from nature, yourself, fate, karma, or other sources. At worst, each instance of competition is an obstacle to be overcome and conquered, similarly to fear. At best it is a learning experience. As a darkworker, you want competition as it hones your skills and grants you experiences. To be without competition is to be bored, idle, ineffective.

What I am curious about is what does darkworker enlightenment look like...u know, is it possible to feel the oneness of everything and to know that everything is One through the dark path? Stopping identifying with the physical body, how can one continue serving his/her avatar?

My guess would be that feeling one with everything as you describe would be achieved by expanding your avatar to include everything, rather than recognizing your avatar as being one with everything else. I don’t even know if that makes sense. My understanding of those ideas is quite fuzzy.

I think one of the primary differences between heaven and hell is the company you keep. And I'd rather live in the company of lightworkers than the company of darkworkers.

If I had to make a choice, I’d rather live in the company of darkworkers. At least then you absolutely know that your contributions are being utilized to their maximum potential, and your resources are vastly knowledgeable, and always seeking to gain more of the same things you want. Status would become relevant to specific types of knowledge and experience, rather than social standings. With higher awareness darkworkers, social standings become obsolete, and cooperation against the largest competitions becomes the rule.

[fretho]

Originally Posted by Glass Joe

This might sound like just semantics at first, but the distinction I guess I want to make hear is that fear usually means running away from something, and not really achieving or creating anything. And I don't think the Dark-side runs from anything any more than the Light-side, but just looks at things differently, and wants different things. I see it more like a darkworker loving to be selfish and a lightworker equally loving to be selfless. It's more like the love-based emotions of "passion" vs. the love-based emotions of "devotion". One focuses inward, the other focuses outward. Yin and Yang. They are separate, yet both are related.

I enjoy your Star Wars analogies.

It's almost like positive and negative in a battery. You can't have one without the other. I think those of us who feel like gray is better are sort of charging our batteries with input from both sides. When the time comes, we can then polarize. Or as the case may be, we may simply pass on our gray energy to others who may choose to polarize it.

Knowledge of things is gray. It can be used for good or bad. If you want to put it into play, that takes polarity. Polarity is the means of manifesting potential, whereas gray is the means of accumulating it.

Many successful writers are gray, I think. Terry Pratchett, for example. The gray strategy is to reach mastery of things through knowledge, skill, intelligence, and persistence. A person can be unconsciously gray, in which case they may suffer for it, because others can manipulate them to polarize at random, rather than as a conscious decision. If we value self and others equally, we can choose to temporarily polarize in the most profitable direction in a given situation.

At least, this is my feel for it. I haven't been polarity-conscious for long.

[ahimel]

Klamachpin:

I found your post extremely interesting. You say you're not polarized, but your post reads as coming from someone of quite high consciousness. You read as being mostly content with who you are and comfortable in your center. But you also read -- to me -- as a lightworker in most cases. I've made a collection of your quotes that I find lightworkery and put them in purple below.

So the question that comes to mind is -- WHY should that be? It's been said that the light and dark paths lead to the same places, and this post would certainly be very strong evidence of that if it were written by a high-level darkworker. But you say you're not that either. It leaves me confused. And I can't theorize much, since all I have is your post. So I'm going to bring up questions. Since many of them will be relatively personal, I can't ask you to answer them in this public forum. But I'd be grateful to know as much as you're willing to share, whether it's additional data, or simply your own theories and interpretations.

Originally Posted by Klamachpin

not quite figuring out how to accomplish goals of contribution and legacy via utilizing fear energy.

OK, that's the single most lightworkery quote, to me. Why do you consider yourself darkworkerish if your goal is contribution?

One of the biggest problems I see in these discussions is a confusion of terms. The inward/outward pairing causes the issue of balance to appear. The light/dark pairing has issues with social conditioning. The love/fear pairing brings into play a relation between polarity and stages of awareness that is not true. Other pairings I’ve seen on the boards are just as inadequate – these concepts are difficult to condense into words. What's important, though, is attempting to understand the concepts without giving power to the words themselves. Recognizing the words as simple descriptors by detaching the social connotations/emotions from those words helps greatly in understanding the concepts put forth.

This is very true. People also tend to mix up "pushing outwards" with "Only moves outwards", although this latter is clearly an impossibility (at least for very long.)

I'd be happy to entertain different terminology. Even "Jedi" and "Sith" might be an improvement, since, although they do have good/evil connotations, they're less heavily ingrained than the connotations of light and dark. I'll give it a shot and see how it goes....

Given infinite time, money, and skill, what I will choose to do is also to help others. It is just that I'm not active in giving help to others. Instead, I choose to become a resource that others can draw upon. This way, I'm sure that the help I produce will be quality aid to those whom would benefit. Should I simply give great quantities of limitless aid, I'd not only be unsure of if my help was affecting the right people, but my help could potentially be harmful to those whom misinterpret it.

Do you consider this a trait of Sith? It seems to me that part of the duty of a Jedi is to give responsibly. It doesn't count as "giving" unless you actually provide value. And providing booze to a drunk or calculus assistance to a person taking algebra is clearly not valuable. A Jedi doesn't give blindly, just tossing random stuff into the ocean of humanity and hoping it does some good, any more than a Sith just randomly goes around grabbing stuff. Both have goals, and both move intelligently towards those goals.

It is not what I fear that motivates me to help others - it is the recognition that others have not conquered their fears yet. By ruling over my own fears I serve as an example to those whom are powerless against their fears. By increasing my own knowledge, status, and wisdom I increase my visibility to those looking for a beacon of hope. By requiring that those I befriend help me, I teach those I aid to recognize their responsibility of contribution while those I refuse are shown my truth that nothing comes without a cost.

OK, this is somewhat Sith-y. And yet, if I replaced "conquered" with "transcended", it becomes very Jedi-y. So I'm not sure if it's actually a Sith quote, or simply a difference in terminology.

From my perspective, it would be extremely easy for a lightworker to be a jerk. Lightworkers constantly give of themselves in the best manner they can provide. They focus on giving quantity. Unfortunately, many of those whom a lightworker seeks to aid do not wish to receive assistance, and those who wish to receive may not be satisfied with the help the lightworker provides. In either poor scenario, the lightworker is seen as a jerk.

With the darkside method, people come to take aid from you, and if you are smart about it you allow them to take what they believe they need from you. There are limits, of course. You must watch over those whom you aid to make sure they are not acting out of greed or sloth. The only ways you can be seen as a jerk is if there is a misunderstanding between you and your client, either actively (i.e. “no, you can do your homework on your own!”) or passively (i.e. “sorry, I don’t understand multiple variable calculus either”).

I should perhaps clarify that by "jerk" I mean something more like, "Evil ********************* tyrant of doom." Someone who goes around kicking puppies and throwing old ladies off of sinking ships and playing mind games with innocent children to make them cry, someone who has no respect for the value of life and thinks it's perfectly acceptable to kill a subordinate for questioning your orders.

Misunderstandings can certainly happen between any two people, regardless of polarity. All of your examples above are essentially misunderstandings - the Jedi assumed that the person would want help, or that s/he could provide adequate help. The Sith assumed greater competence than the student actually had, or the student presumed greater competence than the Sith actually had. I wouldn't say that polarity played any part in it at all.

Casual murder is an entirely different topic.

Also, who says I focus on giving quantity? On the contrary, I don't expect to be able to help very many people right now. So I focus instead on giving the best help I can give.

The “easily taken advantage of” part is a difference of perception, though. It’s not that I’m easily manipulated, but rather that I readily submit to acts of aid that meet two conditions: it draws upon my resources in a useful manner, and it does not significantly hurt me or my goals.

People are often surprised at the resistance I put up to something that goes against my values – even if it is something commonly perceived as harmless. This often puts me at odds with the in-crowds, though I am not seen as specifically deviant or outcast… just different and sometimes confusing.

I define this as "honor" ("Honor is what you know about yourself. Reputation is what others know about you. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it may. And outlive the bastards." -Aral Vorkosigan) It's been something I've been working on as I move towards enlightenment -- standing up for what's right, even if it's a small instance of right. And you're right, it does make one a bit outcast, whether Jedi or Sith.

As far as competition goes, remember that not all competition comes from other humans. It can be from nature, yourself, fate, karma, or other sources. At worst, each instance of competition is an obstacle to be overcome and conquered, similarly to fear. At best it is a learning experience. As a darkworker, you want competition as it hones your skills and grants you experiences. To be without competition is to be bored, idle, ineffective.

This is a true statement regardless of polarity. I would never want to stop growing. I may enjoy occasional moments of rest, but I wouldn't want the traditional Christian vision of heaven -- perfect all the time, with nothing to do. And I don't even mind engaging in competition with other people, as long as it's competition intended to help both parties grow. I only object to competition that raises one person up at the other person's expense.

If I had to make a choice, I’d rather live in the company of darkworkers. At least then you absolutely know that your contributions are being utilized to their maximum potential, and your resources are vastly knowledgeable, and always seeking to gain more of the same things you want. Status would become relevant to specific types of knowledge and experience, rather than social standings. With higher awareness darkworkers, social standings become obsolete, and cooperation against the largest competitions becomes the rule.

When you say "social standings", what do you mean? Do you mean the mostly-arbitrary charisma-and-intimidation based rankings prevalent in most social groups? Or do you mean the concept of rankings at all? It seems to me that lack of ranking is completely anathema to Sith. Ranking based on ability, perfectly fine, but I can't imagine Sith building power and standing in order to get past power and standing... explain to me my error.

Like I say, I found it fascinating. I hope you will continue to post.

PS: your signature rocks!

[ahimel]

Originally Posted by Narz

There's probably something to that.

That said I don't believe in "lightworkers" or "darkworkers" and think everyone has a bit of both in them.

Definitely true. The question is which one you choose to emphasize.

Like the story about the Native American telling his grandson that everyone has two wolves inside them, a good one and a bad one, and they're always fighting for dominance. The little boy asked which wolf would win, and his grandfather said, "Whichever one you feed."

Whether you get cool action-at-a-distance mind tricks or not is a fun topic for the forums. But what you choose to do with your life is a much more important question.

[Jeremy Bennett]

This is some sort of existential hedonism. When you understand why this is such a good, safe option, and accept the fate attached to it (there WILL be negative consequences), then you conquer your doubts. You become ENDARKEND.

Note that I am not at this level yet. I only have glimpse. Someone please improve if possible.

This is an awesome thread, and I am learning a lot. When we think about
the "endgame" - can the path of darkeness lead to anything but annialation?

...several years ago, I was given the opportunity to polarize. I have always felt the path of God in my life, but had been thinking about my future life - thinking about "the end times" and the Anti-christ.. - and thinking - "gee - what if I'm the Anti-Christ? - i'm smart, good with people, a strategic thinker, etc. etc." - and was disturbed by that thought...

I was desperately asking God for wisdom (be really careful with that one)
and ended up collapsed under my desk (after burning both ends at a "dot com" in the late 90's and taking university classes) - I had a vision -

Satan came to me - and presented me the choice - I looked into that choice, and saw, in an instant, me becoming the Antichrist, rising to power, big fight with the forces of good - getting defeated - a long time in hell /pergatory -
and then at the end, finally being reuninted with God, and everything being all good.

My response was - "Huh.. ok, well, that's an option, but (now having experienced all this) - I think I'd rather just be myself. (and pursue what I want to pursue, as a being of light)

I then received the wisdom I was asking for - that collapse was the start of a needed break with reality (which helped in getting me out of a toxic situation) and then my story of life continued..

I suppose my biggest issue with the dark polarity is the potential causing of the enslavement of mankind (we're seeing this a lot already)

... and then whether, in fact, there may be a piece that's missing in those who choose a dark path - that twists themselves and their perception such that they're not able to actually _see_ things that exist, or are going on -
like Jesus' statement: "The light has shined into the darkness, and the darkness has not understood it."

I would love to hear your thoughts.

[tristan101]

there is one thing i do not understand.
i am a darkworker, but i do not understand in which ways darkworkers behave "fear-polarized".
darkworkers tend to love themselves, : " i am god "
concerning this " i am god " quote, i think that darkworkers are love-based/polarized as well as lightworkers.
but the darkworkers are love-based towards themselves = SELF-LOVE , whereas lightworkers are love-based towards others.

so what the heck is meant when i read over and over again that darkworkers are "fear-polarized" ?



please explain it to me..
cu

tristan