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02-25-2010, 01:32 AM
| #91 (permalink) | |
| Banned Join Date: May 2007 Location: in your fridge
Posts: 2,018
 |  Quote:
See Wittgenstein for laborious explanations of why metaphysics is a misuse of language. But if I was you I'd send Steve an email. He likes them. | |
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02-25-2010, 01:34 AM
| #92 (permalink) | |
| Member Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 60
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02-25-2010, 03:18 AM
| #95 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: AR
Posts: 863
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I can't speak for Steve as this question will be answered differently for different people. It will depend upon what they *believe. If you believe that all of creation is holographic and that we are parts of something bigger, then you would order from "the universe" if that's what you call "everything". You could call it "Oom-biggity-biggity-baw-baw" if you chose to. Our perceived relationship to 'whatever' is more important than what we call it or believe it is. My personal experience and the writings of most religious literature support the idea that 'whatever' will respond to us exactly as we believe 'it' to be. Whether that be as a shephard, protector, father, mother, Santa claus.....or on the other side, as some vengeful tyrant or just a chaotic series of unrelated events. Your beliefs will be made real. | |
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02-25-2010, 03:35 AM
| #96 (permalink) | ||
| Family Member Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,950
 | Quote:
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But I suspect it's because the question itself is flawed. | ||
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02-25-2010, 04:07 AM
| #97 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Hattiesburg, MS
Posts: 164
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And why are we getting off topic??  | |
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02-25-2010, 04:25 AM
| #99 (permalink) |
| Master  Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 5,988
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I suspect bright is trying to determine whether or not to label me as "saved" or "unsaved." Despite answering this question multiple times, including addressing it in various blog posts, a podcast (Beyond Religion), and quite thoroughly in Chapter 13 of my book, some people still have a hard time accepting my answer because it doesn't fit within the religious framework they currently subscribe to. Not much I can do about that except to direct such people to the answers that have already been provided. Chapter 13 of my book is perhaps the most thorough. I don't buy into bright's frame, so I can't answer the question from within that frame. It may be a yes/no question, but from a broader perspective the question is largely nonsensical. It's similar to asking a virgin, "Did you enjoy your last sex partner?" It may be a yes/no question, but it has no meaning because the frame makes an invalid assumption. Bright seems overly attached to the idea that I integrate beliefs into my identity. His question "Do you believe..." pre-supposes that. Since that assumption is erroneous to begin with, the question is meaningless to me. Bright appears to be a mono-framer, which limits his/her perspective and makes it difficult to understand other viewpoints. If bright wishes to receive a meaningful answer from me, it's necessary to switch frames and ask the question from within a context that makes sense to me. Otherwise the best answer I can give is an eye roll. Additionally, the question "Do you believe in God?" is pretty vague to begin with. Different people use different definitions of God when they ask that question. But the bigger problem in this case is the "Do you believe..." portion since it starts off with an invalid assumption that people are equivalent to their beliefs. Hopefully bright will someday learn the value of a multi-frame perspective and may shed the inherent limitations of mono-framing, with respect to the ongoing pursuit of truth. Until that happens, people like me will probably be a source of frustration. |
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02-25-2010, 04:35 AM
| #100 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 237
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02-25-2010, 06:06 AM
| #102 (permalink) |
| Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Illinois
Posts: 789
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The question "Do you believe in God?" IS ridiculous, though my reasons for believing that are different from Steve's. It's like asking me if I believe in Zeus. I will never understand how the Christians of today cannot see how similar they are in my eyes to the people who once believed in the Olympian gods. (Plus the Olympian gods were MUCH cooler  )
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02-25-2010, 06:13 AM
| #103 (permalink) | |
| Master Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 5,988
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02-25-2010, 06:17 AM
| #104 (permalink) | ||
| Banned Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 82
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Because you keep referring a higher power of some sort in your posts, I wanted to know your thoughts about what that higher power is, whether it is the abrahamic god, the universe itself, a diest sort of god, etc. That's what I wanted to know. But then you said that you 'sometimes believe in god, and sometimes you don't, which makes me curious about you're mindset and that you're not being truthful in your reply. Do you sometimes believe in gravity and sometimes you disbelieve in it too? I understand that you think beliefs are like gloves, you put them on when they empower you, and you take them off when they disempower you. But there are some things which are a fact and which you accept in all situations: E.g gravity, obama being president of the U.S, your name being steve pavlina, etc. These are all facts you always accept. If we were talking about such a factual context in which there are no beliefs - only facts - would you consider the existence of god to be a fact or not? How come you're avoiding answering this question so much? Quote:
Btw, we're just having a friendly discussion about your beliefs and I'm just curious about them - I don't mean any sort of disrespect. I'm an ex muslim so I'm curious about the beliefs of everyone in the same way! Last edited by bright; 02-25-2010 at 06:28 AM. | ||
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02-25-2010, 06:39 AM
| #105 (permalink) |
| Master Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 5,988
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The value of a fact lies in its predictive ability. If a "fact" cannot be used to make predictions, such as who will take the stage when the U.S. President is called up to speak or what will happen when you drop an object on the ground, then it is meaningless to describe it as fact. Since the existence or nonexistence of a deity has no predictive value to me, it has no meaning to me in the realm of fact. It only holds meaning in the realm of imagination. I drift in and out of using references to the divine in my writing, depending on what information I'm looking to convey and whether or not I think the frame has value for communication purposes. But I don't consider the existence or non-existence of God to be part of the realm of fact. I would only do that if a belief in the existence or non-existence of a divine being (in a very general sense) were necessary to increase the accuracy of my predictions, but as far as I can tell, it makes no difference either way. However, if we're talking about a specific form of God, such as the Christian God, then I found that the accuracy of my predictions in life increased when I shed that belief. My understanding of reality appeared to be less accurate when I viewed it solely through a Christian lens. For example, I became a better student in school after I dropped Christianity (something that seemed to bother some of my Christian friends). A belief in the divine has less to do with Truth and more to do with Power though. It's largely a question of what specific beliefs are adopted and whether or not they're empowering to the individual believer. To the degree such beliefs are empowering to me, I utilize them consciously. Since I was raised Catholic, I am still discovering disempowering beliefs that were installed in my youth, beliefs which are inaccurate and/or disempowering. When I discover such beliefs, I do my best to break them down and shed them. In the past few months, for instance, I've become aware of limiting beliefs related to sexuality, beliefs that were installed when I was very young and that I wasn't even consciously aware of. I've been shedding them as I discover them. This has been very helpful in giving me the ability to enjoy new experiences that were previously impossible for me. By releasing the disempowering beliefs, I now have an increased capacity to identify and fulfill new desires without being blocked. |
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02-25-2010, 10:33 AM
| #111 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 2,296
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02-25-2010, 11:22 AM
| #112 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Manhattan, NY
Posts: 1,370
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02-25-2010, 11:46 AM
| #113 (permalink) | |
| Retired Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 664
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Urban Dictionary: kittywampus kittywampus - Wiktionary catawampus - Wiktionary | |
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02-25-2010, 11:58 AM
| #114 (permalink) | ||
| Family Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 2,296
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02-25-2010, 12:58 PM
| #115 (permalink) | |
| Banned Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 12,690
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I'm trying to figure out why it's important to be specific with what you want but not be specific from who/what/where you want it from. The poster above who attempted to answer didn't really answer that very well for me. Hopefull I can get some others to chime in. | |
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02-25-2010, 01:42 PM
| #116 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Manhattan, NY
Posts: 1,370
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02-25-2010, 02:28 PM
| #117 (permalink) | |
| Banned Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 12,690
| Quote:
And a big concept in the beginning of this book is the Be-Do-Have paradigm (which he talks about in Book 1 as well). anyway, I think I'm sort of receiving my answer from reading that book. First of all, the reason you don't focus on where it comes from would be because you are everything...or essentially, when you say "the universe" you are essentially saying "from myself" because you are a part of the universe...you are a part of God and God is everything that exists...the universe is everything that exists... But also, the concept of "ordering" itself is confounded by this logic anyway. You don't go in and "order" what you want...you BE what you want. If you put the intention of "I want this with a side of this" out there then you are telling yourself you don't already have it. But if you be what you want, you'll do the things you need to do to have it. (Be-Do-Have) And he explains in more depth on how to "be" what you want with one simple phrase that I found earth-shattering (even though it's been put out there in some many other different "cliche" ways so often that I've been numbed to it's truth...but seeing it pitched a different way really shook me): That which you choose for yourself, give to another. and that state of giving to another will signal to your mind that you already have it to give. (which sounds an awful lot like the abundance mindset) | |
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02-25-2010, 02:45 PM
| #119 (permalink) |
| Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 1
| The Dreary Universal Restaurant
I think it's important to challenge the idea that the Universe is like "this" or it's like "that." I'm going to paint a starkly different picture of the Universal Restaurant then Steve did. Then we can ask ourselves, is the universe like a buzzing restaurant with lots of good options and plenty of good people around (Steve's picture)? Or is it like a dark, decaying motel-restaurant out of a Hitchcock movie? Or maybe it's some other way entirely... In Steve's imagery the Universal Restaurant has a lot of hustle and bustle, there are a lot of people, there's good food. You can get what you want if you just get clear on what that is. The question he is posing is: how do you order so that you get what you want? How do you get that clarity? But, because his metaphor of the restaurant supports the ordering practice he recommends, it's a bit of trick. When we are in an environment like Steve describes, it stimulates demand. Sure, there are a lot of options -- too many options -- but they're desirable options. We want to do what everyone else is doing -- ordering what we want -- so that we feel satisfied, and good and accepted and that we belong. However, what about situations in which we can't possibly get what we want? What about lose-lose options, when we can only make the most out of the less-than-ideal options that are available. To me, our mindset in that situation is much more critical to our satisfaction, then our clarity is in the Universal Restaurant Steve describes. Let's see if this is true for you too. Let's imagine the Universal Restaurant very different from Steve's picture. But first, imagine yourself in your car -- tired, forlorn -- you've been driving for hours on a dark lonely highway. Where are you anyway? You feel your stomach grumbling and you have nothing to eat in the car. It's been miles and miles since you saw a sign. Now imagine spotting a dark, old, run-down building with a neon sign dangling off its side -- is it a restaurant? Could it be FOOD? Tired and hungry, you park your car and walk up to the old wood door. There are no other cars in the lot. Where is everyone? Do they even serve food here? As soon as you get inside, you realize that, in this particular Universal Restaurant, things aren't so chipper and bright. The place smells like mildew. You hear some flies buzzing around your ears. You wouldn't be suprised to see a rat come out of the floorboard. However, stomach grumbling away, you grab a rickety old chair and sit at the first table. You take a good look around, hopeful that you might be surprised by something unexpected, but there's no one around. There aren't even any menus. In the corner of the room, under a flickering overhead light, you see a chalkboard with 1 dish on it, entitled the "Special." You can barely make out the scribble, but when you do, you discover it's your least favorite dish -- it's the one your mom used to make that you'd refuse to eat because it had too many vegatables. You hate that dish. It reminds you of how you used to hide it on your plate so your mom wouldn't see. While you're daydreaming about that, out of the back door comes a toothless, shriveled up old man. He slowly walks over to you. When he's just a few feet away, he spits out: "You want the Special?" Now, you know you don't want the Special. You hate the Special. You also don't want to leave because who knows when you might find somewhere else to eat. You hadn't seen anything for miles. So, what do you do? Do you order? And if so, how? What I think is important about this example is that there are just as many options -- countless options -- as there are in Steve's example. But it does not appear that way. Since it appears like your options are limited and undesirable -- clarity about what you want, is likely to get you nowhere. If you focus on what you want, you are likely to be frustrated and dissatisfied because, at first, all the options are undesirable and perhaps even in the end they'll be undesirable. So, clarity about what you want will just keep you stuck. No, here, in this Universal Restaurant you're probably best off focusing on all the possibilities -- and enlarging them. What are the variations on the Special? Might the Aged Proprietor make you something different? Do they have a vending machine in the back? Where's the closest McDonalds? In many ways, your approach in the Dreary Universal Restaurant is the opposite from Steve's Universal Restaurant because there, if you focused on possibilities, you'd only wind up confused and frustrated. As he points out you'll keep changing your order or you'll never even order in the first place. Maybe you'll order and just stare at your food when you get it -- all the time thinking: am I going to like this? Steve's point is well-taken that specificity in ordering leads to specificity in results -- and vague orders get vague results. However, I think it's wise to choose your approach based on the situation. All restaurants are not created equal, so perhaps ordering can be flexible too. Last edited by felberbm; 02-25-2010 at 02:46 PM. Reason: typo |
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