This note is for you Steve.

[ElizaBetha]

Dear all,

I am new to this forum but have been reading Steve's site for months, and it is truly inspirational - very much a niche needing to be filled.

But I have just come home from a two-day workshop trying to figure out how to deal with HIV/AIDS in slum upgrading work in Africa. We had sessions with women who live in slums in my city (Nairobi) who discuss young girls having to trade sex for water just to survive, forced evictions from shacks, extended families living in a 10 foot x 10 foot room, and a spiral of poverty that anyone who has never left the United States cannot even dream about (really - it is like childbirth - you think you get it, but until it happens to you, or you really see it, you don't get it).

There are many things in life that you can learn by reading, thinking and working hard. But I truly wish someone as influential as Steve could visit more of the world and bring the message home. I'd love to read his blog after seeing slum life in Africa, Asia or Latin America. (People do in fact die in slums in India, and it isn't from old age). The problems and issues of life in the US are real, but limited. (Yes, New Orleans was terrible. But not absolutely hopeless).

You suggest that focusing on the pain and suffering of the world will bring us no good. But if people who already have it all - including awareness and self-realization - can't help those who really deserve NO blame for their situation, then who can?

Please, when you are all wishing for $1 million to come your way, wish as well that those people barely living on $1 per day could also achieve dignity and fulfilment and have enough money for food, shelter, education and health care. That is all they are asking for, and there are millions and millions of them in our world.

Hope I don't sound depressing - it was a tough couple of days - there is still much hope and dignity in the world, even under dismal conditions.

Eliza

[The David]

That would be nice if he travelled more. Maybe when he retires (which will hopefully be never). In the mean time...I think Van Gogh is overrated.

[SydneyDave]

Originally Posted by Nelson

Focusing on the pain and suffering of this world will bring us no good. Nietzche's main message is that man is lacking and his values are weak - not exactly positive or abundant thinking.

From memory, he killed himself.

"There are many things in life that you can learn by reading, thinking and working hard. But I truly wish someone as influential as Steve could visit more of the world and bring the message home."

ElizaBetha, tell me the name of a charity where I can donate money that will get to people who need it. For every one of the major goals I achieve because of the help I have received from this site, both Steve's articles and the helpful comments in my introduction thread, and in my brand new blog, I will donate AUD$50. I can't donate much at the moment because I'm so far in debt. But when I have achieved these things, it will be a cakewalk.

Each person has their own role to play on this great stage . You are helping people become aware of their plight already. Steve made the forum, which will enable me to fix some problems in my life (with the help of so many others, awesome people). You posted the message about this problem. And now I will make a financial commitment.

[ABlix]

I agree that his advertising slogan is a little too witty. Does it imply that people who are not smart should not be allowed on his web site?

[fourthdan]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Even Jesus didn't travel much in His own day. Just mostly around the Middle East.

there's a huge debate/discussion/fuss going on about a theory that Jesus spent most of his adult life and even life after the crucification in india!
apparently he came to india, studied hinduism and yoga under the mystics in the himalayas and that's how he was able to perform miracles and survive the crucification. (ok, i'm no christian and I don't know all that much about christ - I haven't even read the books on this, all I know is there's one heck of a storm being kicked up about this) But also it is said that Jesus died in india and his tomb is in one of the northern most states in india (kashmir - the one that is contested with pakistan)


Anyways, on this thread - I have this to say:
If you're interested in PD, that automatically implies you're smarter than the average.

[ThoughtAddict]

The focus of this thread seems to be twofold. On the one hand, there is the issue of cultural development and understanding of literature, arts, music, painting, poetry and other artistic pursuits and their effect on personal growth. This is a matter I believe Steve has touched on. The second is the lack of focus on the depressing details of life, specifically of death and tragedy in third world countries. There is a good (IMO) reason for not dwelling on these.

Steve does encourage people to broaden their cultural horizons. His reading list was not limited to traditional personal development, and he doesn't merely write about traditional personal development. While I do not know the extent of his cultural studies, I don't see any obvious deficiency. Nor does his message seem to be one of ignorance, but of growth, however it fits you. If that is Dostoevsky, Nietzsche, Sartre, Frankl, Van Gogh, Neruda, Wagner, or Pavlina, so be it. Though each of these are recommendations that have yielded benefits to me, who am I to say each person should take the same path? Not all of us should fit into the same mold...

As to the lack of focus on depressing aspects of life, this may be due to a belief that focus on these aspects is harmful. There is little doubt in my mind that he knows they exist, but chooses not to focus on them because it makes people depressed and hopeless about the future as well as being so distant as to be outside what help most people can directly provide. Why focus on things distant that you can do little to help while your own life is falling apart? Why not take care to live your own life as best as possible and help where you can make a real difference?

But most of all, why be harsh toward a person who is devoting their entire life to helping others improve their lives? Steve's no god, and worshipping him is harmful to personal development. But he doesn't deserve harsh words for choosing the method he has to improve the world. Rather than criticize him for making a difference that is not as big as possible, why not save that energy for fixing things or for, at least, getting those who are doing damage to change their ways?

If I've come off as condescending in any way, please forgive. It is something I am trying to work on, but I hope the reasoning behind these words shines through any negativity. I mean no disrespect to any, but would like to refocus efforts.

Ma salam, peace be with you.

[ImOpen]

First to the person who said Dostoyevsky was dull. Well HAH! It's really hard to find something more emotional - that is if you understand it.

"Nietzche's main message is that man is lacking and his values are weak"
This is just insanely funny. It is just plain wrong. I will not even explain why, it should just take a couple of minutes for you to relearn. It's really basic.

And! Nietzche did not kill himself. For heaven's sake. Less bias, please! He died in pneumonia.

And another point. Turning to "PD" as in Pavlina's PD does not signify intelligence. Yeah, I know you thought your group was very elite and so forth but I'm sorry. It only signify non-stupidity, and that's a big difference. Smart people do not follow a leader, short of life experience, nodding to his every word. They do not believe in being a disciple in a Pavlina lead cult - as in this instance.

And finally. Pavlina is not devoting his life to help other people. He is devoting his life to help himself. And you help him with that goal. He is a smart guy (although he seems to be very shallow and lack the emotional depth that most people have). You're just the victims of his methods. I know you can never see this but looking outside in it's amazing how close it is to brainwashing. Some of you really scare me.

I found this forum: E-sangha, Buddhist Forum and Buddhism Forum (Powered by Invision Power Board)
Look at it. There is a lot of wisdom. There is some trash. But no hierarchy! No self proclaimed leader and guru who has reached the "the level of love" and whose mission is to help everyone while advertising products like trying to sell a stained rug to me.

I hope this post is not deleted. The last one I wrote was. Also, I am constantly getting PM's with aggressive talk, in response to my posts. This very much shows how this is slowly developing into a cult like thing which is very scary.

If I get the chance I will try to explain all of this in further detail for those of you not meeting argumentation with "why read it if you don't agree".

//reader of Pavlina's blog since it started

[daveangeles]

[my original post was too harsh]

Suffice it to say, I don't think Steve is a cult leader.

He's a talented writer who makes his money from advertising and provides useful channels for PD, such as this forum.

[dorothy hanna]

Hey, RELAX. No need to be frightened of Steve. No need to function from a state of fear. Don't be so harsh. Lighten up. Enjoy that which resonates with you. If it does not resonate with you, then, just let it go.

Ignore the agrresive PM posts you get from others. That's just the place they are in at the moment.

I can't answer why they should choose to post aggresive things. It's just a simple dialoge, and exchange of ideas, after all, but don't get sucked in by their aggressivness, and add that to your experience.

Hopefully, the aggrresiveness will decrease, and a more productive dialogue will ensue.

[Markus74]

Wait, wait, wait! Steve is NOT all-knowing??

[Frans]

Originally Posted by ImOpen

Smart people do not follow a leader, short of life experience, nodding to his every word.

I am not supporting your crusade against Steve Pavlina, but in this case you are right: smart people develop their own vision about life, instead of following somebody else's vision.
IMO, people should consider this site in the first place as a step towards self-exploration.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by ABlix

I agree that his advertising slogan is a little too witty. Does it imply that people who are not smart should not be allowed on his web site?

I remember thinking that when very depressed.

It implies that the people on here are smart and that the forum is for them. Are you a smart person? Well, you're here on this forum, so I'll assume you are.

Originally Posted by ImOpen

Pavlina is not devoting his life to help other people. He is devoting his life to help himself.

I'm hoping you don't regard those two statements as mutually exclusive?

Re: the cult thing. Welcome to Web 2.0, yo. There's a Steve Jobs cult, too. They're called Macheads.

Originally Posted by Nelson

Nietzche's main message is that man is lacking and his values are weak

I have to agree with ImOpen here; that's a terrible reading of Nietzsche. Of course man is lacking; if he weren't, why would he improve? Nietzsche was incredibly pointed about the difference between the strong and the weak. How about this... Try reading him as if he were a PD guru.

[ImOpen]

You are followers.

Steve Pavlina is your leader. You use his terminology, you start blogs writing about and in the exact same manner as Steve does. PD gives you identification and a sense of belonging. You belong to a smart exclusive group. Again and again you pat yourselves on the back saying "since you're in this forum I assume you are intelligent".

Pavlina is selling products, directing readers to INC DIRECT online bank (see blog), and putting advertisment everywhere on the site. The "Tony Robbins" banner is just centimeters away from here.

He knows EXACTLY how much money he makes and how it is achieved. He talks about it again and again.

He has NO IDEA how many people he is actually helping. He is not exploring the risk of placebo. In fact he is not exploring anything. He could use polls, he could use questionnaires in order to find out how good he is doing and then refine his methods. But he doesn't. It is only assumed that the fanatically positive forum users over here (a fraction of the whole "population") are good representants for all of his users. But noone really has a clue.

And now that I've said all this, I suspect that he will maybe actually set up a poll or something because his status as an authority could be damaged otherwise. As in the case of this thread, where I posted my point about travelling and he very soon posted a blog post about it, obviously very hastily written.

Main point: You are not smart or at least not using your intelligence. YOU ARE FOLLOWERS!

[Erki]

Originally Posted by ImOpen

Main point: You are not smart or at least not using your intelligence. YOU ARE FOLLOWERS!

Who you?

I personally don't like being called un-smart and a follower but if thinking of me being them makes your day happier then so be it.

[ThoughtAddict]

Imopen, stop trolling. One part of your message may have been valid, but you're taking it way too far and have just insulting everyone on this forum. Are you ready to declare that everyone here is a follower because we use some of the same terminology (much of which is used by other PD writers)? That we're not smart or at least "are not using our intelligence"? Because we're writing on a forum? Are you kidding? That's a generalization that you may try to support from some examples around the forum, but it still doesn't hold water. Maybe some people are, but to say all is going too far, IMO.

The more important point to me, though, is the question of "so what?" So what if they're following? You assume, I think, that because they are following they will be harmed in some way by it. Yet it seems that most of them are at least attempting to take steps toward their own improvement. Would you claim that the world is worse for these people getting together and discussing how to improve their lives?

This site has helped me in a number of ways, including providing the spark to get me started on my own development as a human being. If that make me a follower, so be it.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by ImOpen

And finally. Pavlina is not devoting his life to help other people. He is devoting his life to help himself. And you help him with that goal.

I see no reason the two should be mutually exclusive, and nor does Steve. He's made it repeatedly clear that he deliberately helps others in a way that helps himself and vice-versa. We help him achieve his goals, he helps us achieve ours. You seem to be assuming there has to be a loser in all this, and there doesn't.

Yes, members of these forums use common terminology. When discussing common subjects it's easier to communicate if you have a common terminology re: what you're discussing. You'll find the same in every interest group from chess clubs to sports teams to PC user groups.

Thank you for the E-sangha link.

[Niki]

Originally Posted by ImOpen
And finally. Pavlina is not devoting his life to help other people. He is devoting his life to help himself. And you help him with that goal.


And what are you doing ? devoting your life to be frustrated?
Let go of it, take a deep breath and watch the sky for a moment.
Relax, set your own goals and go for them. But please, do not barricade the flow of others for your own "feel good" feeling.

It's not worth it. Better relaaaaaax. Yeah, Say YEAH !!

It wil do you good

All together

YEAAAAAHHH

with a big HHHHH

YEAHHHHHHHHHHHH

let it all out, all the frustration.

To be or not to be is the question.

Christmas greetings from belgium !

[Christian223]

ImOpen, questioning is not oposition to everything you encounter, questioning is not beign rebel against everyone elses beliefs, questioning is not about beign rebel just to be rebel, questioning is about beign brave to choose for yourself without following the crowd, questioning is about judging values not imposing negative values to the things you dont like, as you are doing, questioning is about not lying to yourself. If you belive questioning is important then start by Questioning your thoughts first, are they well founded?, proben? true?, or invented by your imagination?.

[jillness]

Dear I'm open, I'm new to this site and find it interesting and inspirational. I look at this gentleman's work, not as god, but as support and guidance to right thinking. Right thinking takes place within, regardless of what others tell you. And you are right, never look to anyone as your god or guru, because that task is taken up by yourself. Good point!
But trying to prove others wrong will not make your inner journey any easier.

Doystevesky wrote mostly about mentally unstable and depressed people who believed they were much smarter than other people and decided to play god. Crime and Punishment is not something to be acted out (and I did that in a student film). Hitler loved Nietzche, and tried to make him the 3rd reich hero. Seeing a sunset in France is the same in America, except that in the summer the sun sets at ten at night and perhaps you can stand atop the sacre couer instead of, say, the cliffs of malibu or a ny highrise.

The point I'm making here is that regardless of what you know, read or see, it doesn't take away that you still have thoughts and those thoughts create your reality, even if you live in india. You go to Kerala and see children that you think are unhappy, if you stay in india long enough, you might get a glimpse of where that unhappiness is coming from. hint: not from the children you saw, nor the skinny cows or the man with the missing hand or the poor people begging for money (lots of people begging might actually be holy people!)

I'm Open: This might sound harsh, and my apologies beforehand. We, including myself here, are pretty dumb to even have this conversation with you.
Because basically, You are much smarter than the idiot you are presenting yourself to be.
stop trying to prove your worth and your intellect to everyone, and start changing your life around.
the only trickster here is you.
good luck to you!

[set]

lol, i didnt even read the post replies and i can come out with a conclusion.

steve uses a tactic very often used by forum owner. let other fans defend his position so as not to appear weak.

B.S.!

If you're using this tactic of couse, steve. You can always come out and deny you've it by saying you're not even aware of this post

i scan till the end of the post looking for steve's replies. the rest doesnt even matter one bit. i wonder why people are acting they're steve himself. Are they paid to reply on behalf of steve?

haha

[Adrienne]

Originally Posted by set

lol, i didnt even read the post replies and i can come out with a conclusion.

steve uses a tactic very often used by forum owner. let other fans defend his position so as not to appear weak.

B.S.!

If you're using this tactic of couse, steve. You can always come out and deny you've it by saying you're not even aware of this post

i scan till the end of the post looking for steve's replies. the rest doesnt even matter one bit. i wonder why people are acting they're steve himself. Are they paid to reply on behalf of steve?

haha

I find these remarks uncalled for. Attack ideas not people. So far the only thing your post says is to laugh at people because they agree with Steve. How can you attack ideas if you cant be bothered to read the posts?

And it is not people standing up for Steve, its people standing up for people. If I saw someone talk to you this way, I would be on them as well.

Imopen has the same issue calling people followers simple because people agree with some things Steve and other people say. Calling people followers simple because they might agree with Steve on some things is also uncalled for.

Let me ask this. Back a long time ago, wouldn’t it have been stupid after someone invented the wheel for millions of other people to try an invent their own wheel instead of expanding on someone’s good idea? Where would we be if we never used ideas that came from other people? I am not saying we should all take the wheel and try to build the same car, but instead use it to make your own creation like an airplane, train, or something completely new.

Its ok to use peoples ideas to give you inspiration to create whatever you want. Its ok to read Steve’s blog or the forums or whatever, and agree or disagree. Disagreeing leads to great conversation and helps people work through their own ideas and might inspire them grow even more.

Voltaire once said (and I quote this loosely) “I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” I think it is great that we have people on this forum such as Imopen and Markus and set. I really enjoy growing in understanding based on controversial ideas. I never want anyone to agree with me just to agree with me. I like to think.

As to Imopen’s original post about classic literature…

I have read most of those author’s. However, I fail to see where being as you wrote “cultured” is what Steve is missing. A lot of that stuff is taught in school (at least here in the US).

If one wanted to learn a martial art, would you get instruction from an 2nd grade language arts teacher who has studded fencing but not martial arts? No. You would find a martial arts teacher.

While these texts teach important cultural/self issues, morals, and dare I say, conduct, steve is attempting to handle a different animal. Why should anyone but him have the power to say what he SHOULD be reading, should be teaching, etc?

Steve is attempting to share his insight and thoughts with us so we can use them, transmute them if necessary, in our own lives. Does someone have to be an expert in high level mathematics to teach history? Do you have to be a philosopher to teach spelling? While being well rounded, certainly helps tackle life, I am not reading steve’s blog to get tips on spelling. I read his blog in hopes to get ideas to have me think in new directions. One does not have to be a world traveler to think of new ideas. Though perhaps traveling might spark new ideas.

Lets stick to disagreeing with ideas and not attacking people. I would never attack Einstein’s ideas of Relativity by saying he was ugly or could not spell. I would attack his ideas by saying if his theory is true, it must also work on a quantum level and his theories break down when dealing with matter that small. I have no need to attack the author if I have solid foundation for which to attack his ideas.

Adrienne