Separation (Blog)

[James81]

Originally Posted by Magicinthenight

So one can only have an opinion if they've experienced the situation from a certain side only?

You can have an opinion on anything your heart desires. I have opinions on politics, even though I have spent only a small amount of time following and studying politics. I'll assert my opinions on politics once in a while, but I recognize that my opinion doesn't carry much merit in real life because I really don't have the experience to back it up.

Same thing applies here.

Originally Posted by Magicinthenight

Well, how about: you can't know what divorce does to a child until you've been a child who's lived through their parent's divorce?

You're right, I don't. And I don't pretend to. But I do know what it's like to be a single father, the feelings that overwhelm you, the incredible urge to just run away, etc. Not everybody experiences those feelings like I did, but I do recognize that they are common feelings. So when I see someone judging somebody else for having those feelings, the first thing I like to ask is if they have ever went through it. If they say no, then I pretty much disregard what they say because they simply don't and can't understand.

And for the same reason, anybody here who is a child of a divorce ultimately has more experience than I do on the subject. I can assert my opinions through what I've observed through the years with my extensive experience with kids, but I can never know what it's truly like to BE a child of a divorced parent. And thus, my opinion doesn't weigh in as deep as someone who has faced it.

[Magicinthenight]

Originally Posted by James81

But I do know what it's like to be a single father, the feelings that overwhelm you, the incredible urge to just run away, etc. Not everybody experiences those feelings like I did, but I do recognize that they are common feelings. So when I see someone judging somebody else for having those feelings, the first thing I like to ask is if they have ever went through it. If they say no, then I pretty much disregard what they say because they simply don't and can't understand.

But my post wasn't criticising or judging single fathers (or single parents). What I WAS judging, was the glib tone of the post I was replying to, which seemed to imply that divorce's effect on kids can be erased by writing a few checks and fulfilling financial obligations when it's evident that lack of parental prescence has a profound effect on the children.

[Savage]

Originally Posted by Dan Morelle

A strange dividend of your 'separation' is that you're both getting lots more attention; increased comments on facebook, twitter as well as the emails. People care but some people are also being entertained. Are you enjoying this extra attention?

I appreciate the loving/caring comments and advice, yes. The juvenile/hateful comments I do my best to forgive, but fortunately there hasn't been too much of that.

At this time it's helpful to receive more love, but I really don't need more drama.

[alexb5784]

I wasn't shocked to learn about Steve and Erin divorcing. I saw it coming when Steve starting posting about polyamory. I figured that since he was beginning to explore this route in a positive way, he would eventually breakthrough to another level of consciousness that would alter his marriage. This divorce is not bad thing, but a great opportunity for the both of them to grow in ways that would have not been possible before. All divorces should be this way.

[Erin Pavlina]

Originally Posted by Dan Morelle

Seriously though, Erin wouldn't make the switch to a Mac right?

Erin started out with a MAC when Steve met her. I was so happy with my MAC. But since steve was helping me so much with my technology needs, I switched to a PC so it would be more symbiotic. I would probably be quite happy to switch to a MAC when this current PC gives me trouble.

[CroMagna]

Erin,

Did your decision to split have anything to do with polyamory.

Steve,

Just because it's online doesn't mean that we don't know you. In fact people online know each other more than people offline. I consider you a mentor and friend.

[tigerslap]

I have been a fan of Steve Pavlina for a couple of years now, and never felt the urge to comment on anything until now.

I am not shocked by the separation, and since I do not know Steve or Erin personally, I take their word that it is an opportunity for positive change and growth for both individuals. I have learned a lot from them, and I wish them both the best of success and happiness in their lives.

However(you knew a however was coming), I was surprised and confused by the way the news was broken, specifically with regards to custody of the children, and how little detail Steve has provided about how he will remain a conscious parent as he explores further personal growth without Erin as his wife. I understand the desire to protect children by keeping certain things within the family and not on a blog, however I believe Steve could address his planned approach to parenting in his new role in much greater detail without violating his children's privacy. I completely understand why some people would assume that the lack of information regarding this subject could reflect his own fear, and possibly be an underlying hindrance to conscious growth. Addressing it more thoroughly would reduce the assumptions and drama surrounding the topic. It seems to me that Steve's new role as a father living in a separate home from his children could represent an enormous catalyst for growth as a parent, and provide many new challenges and lessons that I would love to read about - judging by the discussions in this thread I am not alone in my interest. I am very curious if this is the kind of growth Steve is seeking or imagining, or, if as some others believe, he made the decision for his own personal growth with regard for his children's development as an afterthought.

Perhaps he is defensive or uncomfortable sharing more of his feelings during what I imagine is an emotionally volatile time. Perhaps this is why his blog seemed so logistical and to me personally, cold. Bloggers have to be cocky to get their message across, and that is an admirable quality that Steve possesses, however this particular entry seemed just as authoritative as other much less emotional issues he has written about, and I did interpret this writing as coming across as slightly arrogant. It does not sound like the Steve I am used to, who normally inspires me in a very positive way. This blog entry left me feeling very unsettled, and reminded me of a quote from Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis:

"If you bungle raising your children, I don't think whatever else you do matters very much."

I don't mean for this post to be negative or dramatic and I mean no disrespect to the Pavlina's - but this is how I honestly feel, in conjunction with hoping everything works out as positively as Steve seems to think it will.

[James81]

I really just hope we get another post on how to wake up in the morning soon.

[Raphael]

I admire your honesty, Erin & Steve! :-)
Honesty for your own desires and needs, shared with the world. Still some way to go for me. But definitely, this inspired me to take one more step and to see, how inevitable it is

[joyfulgrowth]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

Steve, Just because it's online doesn't mean that we don't know you. In fact people online know each other more than people offline. I consider you a mentor and friend.

Funny, I just had the opposite thought a few seconds before reading your post (of course I don't know how close you are with Steve).

I noticed how little I "know" Steve, even if I know more details about his life than about the lives of many friends. I would certainly not call someone a friend with whom I have never had a longer, one-on-one interaction (face to face connection or indepth personal email exchange beyond the roles of PD blogger / blog reader), even if I know about his colon cleansing and how he felt in jail.

For example, Steve won't call me when he wants to talk, simply because he doesn't know me. Even if I had been on his workshop he probably would't. And that's okay. Only because he shares stuff publicly that most people only share with their closest friends, that doesn't make us all his friends, even if we care about his and his family's wellbeing.

Why am I writing this? Hmm, probably because I value true mutual friendship that goes beyond temporary appreciation. And because of my own insight that I probably don't know Steve at all, inspite of having read most of his blog posts and of being in the same forum with him.

[impaul99]

I remember when Tony Robbins got divorced. So many people freaked out and called him a hypocrite and labeled the event as a "failure" in his life. They also assumed that if they listen to his advice on anything, they'd end up getting divorced as well.

To this day I still hear people say stuff like "Tony Robbins? No, I don't listen to his crap...didn't he end up getting divorced? Hahaha..."

I never got this line of thinking. When I heard he got divorced, I just though "Oh, cool... whatever." It's his life and he has to make the best choices within it.

I see the same thing with Steve & Erin. They're getting divorced, so what? My parents finally separated after all the kids were grown up. They mostly stayed together "for the kids". All we saw was them fighting all the time and arguing. Now they lead separate lives and they're way happier living on their own.

Staying together when you no longer want to stay together is stupid in my opinion. Doing it "for the kids" or to save face with society or some other reason is ridiculous. Partnerships between people who are in love and wanting to stay together are already hard enough.

Staying together when you no longer want that just leads to the deterioration of any possible friendship in the future. You end up nitpicking each other at every step, etc. Every little tiny decision becomes a source of argument. The temperature setting on the thermostat becomes an argument. It's just stupid to stay together if it's going to lead to that.

My point of view on the situation is this:

"Hey Steve & Erin, take some time to yourselves to do any healing you need to do emotionally and spiritually (if any), and then when you're ready get back to writing more great content on your Blogs. We'll be here waiting."



Both of you have helped me a lot in the past. If either of you need any help/support from me, let me know.

[MasterD]

Interesting step Erin and Steve. Good luck battling through the adaptation period and I wish you lots of joy in this new phase.

[alexb5784]

I'm glad that Steve and Erin have decided to end their marriage. It's a conscious decision that'll have positive outcomes. Of course it's going to be uncomfortable at times, but think about all of the wonderful things that are to come? It's great that they're able to be honest about their relationship with us and while demonstrating the values of truth and power.

My sister just ended a 20 year marriage to a man who could not be faithful. She stayed with him because she loved him and she wanted a father for her kids. But after realizing that he wasn't going to change, she left. When she left her husband, he told her that she was "washed up" and old, that no one would want her. Now she's dating a guy who's ten years younger and whom adores her. Who's laughing now?

My brother recently filed for divorce this month, after being married for 10 years. He stayed in the marriage for the kids, wasting 8 years of his life. His wife treated him with little respect, ignored his dreams, and belittled his goals. But now that women know he's almost single, he has attracted people into his life who see him as a great catch and wonderful father. After his divorce is final, I know he will marry a woman who supports and believes in him.

Even though Steve and Erin are now separated, their still excellent relationship role models to me. They are remaining friends and have enjoyed a wonderful marriage that many of us aspire to have.

I send you guys love and support

[alexb5784]

Originally Posted by impaul99

I remember when Tony Robbins got divorced. So many people freaked out and called him a hypocrite and labeled the event as a "failure" in his life. They also assumed that if they listen to his advice on anything, they'd end up getting divorced as well.

To this day I still hear people say stuff like "Tony Robbins? No, I don't listen to his crap...didn't he end up getting divorced? Hahaha..."

I agree. I'm not going to discount someone just because their marriage ended. I would rather learn from people who are honest and divorced, than the folks trying to keep up appearances.

Am I going to stop watching Spielberg films because he got divorced in 1989? Is he incapable of directing wonderful love stories? Of course not.

Am I going to stop watching Larry King because he's been married 8 times? Now way! I enjoy his show and he's extremely informative.

In this day and age, divorce is a normal part of life. And it's better to do it than pretend that everything is okay. If Spielberg and Larry King would have stayed married to spouses who were wrong for them, I doubt they'd be as successful as their are today!

[Radactrice]

Am I going to stop watching Larry King because he's been married 8 times? Now way! I enjoy his show and he's extremely informative.

I might not use him as a role model for making relationship choices, however.

Steve and Erin, like every other divorced couple, can only speculate on what their relationship will be like in a year, five years or ten years. They may remain close, good friends. Or not. They may both be very active in their children's lives. Or not. They may in other long-term relationships. Or not.

The only thing that sort of nags at the back of my mind is the idea that being divorced is a higher spiritual plane than remaining faithfully married. The thought that some people seem to think we should rejoice at divorce makes me think that perhaps people who see divorce as the higher spiritual state ought not to get married in the first place. Certainly, I hope no one assumes that if they want to reach the spiritual levels that Steve and Erin have reached they must ditch their partners to do so.

I'm not convinced that being married, being divorced, being never married have anything to do with one's spiritual development per se. You can grow in any of those situations. Or you can stagnate in them. The choice is yours.

[Vindoet]

Big questions remain in my mind, not about the why of the divorce itself, but about how it fits within the Law of Attraction. I'm still learning about LoA and Steve's subjective reality theory and almost believe it until I read about this post about their separation. It makes me wonder: Does it mean that Steve and Erin did not want to put out any intention to make the marriage work? I mean they could formulate an intention to still grow without having to end their relationship, couldn't they? And when there is an intention, some synchronicities will happen, that will help them to figure out a way in both growing personally and maintaining marriage. Or LoA cannot grant this kind of intention? I'm totally confused about this.

[Cyllya]

Are you still going to be polyamorous or do you not feel the need for that anymore?

Originally Posted by ericabiz

Do you think highly-conscious people can ever be in a happy marriage with each other? Or will there always be a yearning for more that marriage just can't satisfy?

Originally Posted by Anna Conlan

I am wondering the same thing as Erica asked – can marriage work for highly conscious people, long term? I always felt that it’s not my path because it would restrict my freedom to grow.

Originally Posted by Amro

The more I think about marriage, the more I see it as a simple (arguably archaic) form of socially recognized connection. Personally, I believe the idea of institutionalized monogamy is discordant with personal growth. Granted, there's nothing wrong with it - it's an option like any other.

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Living consciously requires choice, and choice requires freedom. The institution of marriage restricts freedom a bit (partly legally and partly due to social convention), making free choices more difficult by introducing extra consequences.

Originally Posted by ellie

Anna, brought up an interesting point, do conscious, highly aware people suit marriage?I suspect not. A friend of mine once said to me and it has always stuck with me, "I believe people/relationships come into your life for a purpose for that particular time, to help you grow to a certain point and then it's time to move on and learn from the next person. I do not believe we are meant to stay with the same person all our life". I believe in that way of thinking too.

Originally Posted by cylon

I think that these days the concept of marriage is just fuzzy.

I think Erica and Anna's question would have been a really interesting discussion, but discussions about marriage are often pretty useless because people don't separate marriage from things that they associate with our society's stereotype of marriage. (yossarian's post mentioning having toast with jam and playing with the dog is a pretty obnoxious example of this. What does being sexually exclusive to your offspring's other parent have to do with the stability of their home? What do the toast and dog have to do with either of those?)

I made another topic about this to avoid derailing this one, but I wanted to bring it up here too. The original question sounds like you guys are using "marriage" to refer to being life partners and romantic/sexual partners and making a commitment to stay that way until one of you dies. But then some people respond talking about institutions and legal issues. However, there's nothing law-related in that relationship, and it's DEFINITELY not archaic. (The social convention of getting together because you're in love with each other is a fairly recent one.) And if I correctly recall one of his older posts, Steve and Erin were never actually married by that definition of the word. (Meanwhile, there's nothing permanent inherent in a legal marriage, so don't let your aversion to permanance keep you from getting a marriage license if that's what's practical.)

When I think about it, isn't this separation really just a formality at this point? They were already in an open relationship. The only thing that has changed is

1. They signed the papers

2. Erin moved out. Which is really no different than if the family bought a bigger house since they are going to add new roommates.

Every other aspect of marriage (besides the papers and living together) was already dissolved when they went poly.

So really this is about getting more space in the Pavlina home.

My understanding is that between the poly decision and the divorce decision, they still had a romantic (and probably sexual) relationship with each other, whereas they now have a platonic relationship.

I just can't even fathom the concept personally. What's the point of even being married if a couple can't even be faithful to one another?? It's not that difficult.

The way I see it, if someone wants to be intimate with numerous people; fine; but don't get married if that's what you're into. It's not hard to have numerous sexual partners and not marry any of them. It's very simple actually. If people want out of a marriage, then get out of it; THEN go find someone else. Why is that such a difficult thing to grasp for so many people??

As monogamy-inclined as I am (actually, I think the serial monogamy you seem to be a fan of is pretty ridiculous; it's just promiscuity with a bunch of extraneous rules), this makes no sense. No matter which definition of marriage I figure you use.

Think about the word "unfaithful." If a couple agrees to do something, doing it isn't unfaithful to each other no matter how bad of an idea it is.

Do you mean, "What's the point of even being [romantic life partners] if a couple can't even be [sexually exclusive] to one another??" Or "What's the point of even [having a marriage license] if a couple can't even be [sexually exclusive] to one another??" Um, plenty? Kids are the most obvious reason. I mean, I mean, you COULD have kids with someone whose your "friend with benefits" but I can see why people (including the kids themselves) would not find that relationship preferable.

The whole original point of marriage is economic practicality.

It's funny, because my experience has been the exact opposite. Almost every diovorced man I know left because they had unfaithful wives, yet men are constantly stereotypes as being cheaters.

According to statistics I've heard...
1) men cheat slightly more than women. Just slightly. So there's plenty of cheating women out there.
2) most people (men and women) cheat for emotional reasons, not just because they want more sexual variety.

So many people seem to forget that this is a situation where two people really wanted to make a life together at some pint, tried to, and something went terribly wrong, and it's not pleasant in most cases.

Not all marriages involve people planning to permanently do life together.

In a nutshell, once you've reached orgasm you get a rush of chemicals that say "I'm done with this person--let's find a new mate".

Odd, I've heard the opposite, especially for women. Doesn't orgasm cause a release of oxytocin, aka the bonding hormone?

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Cyllya

Doesn't orgasm cause a release of oxytocin, aka the bonding hormone?

I don't think so. Touch, non-orgasmic sex, releases oxytocin. The orgasm releases prolactin. The "I'm done, see ya" thing is how prolactin is expressed by men, and it's pretty much instantly after orgasm. For us I think it's like flipping a light switch. Have something to eat, go to sleep. With women it may be a little later, but the end result is that it causes both the man and woman to get on each other's nerves for a few weeks after orgasm, until their dopamine levels are restored. Getting on each others nerves is nature's way of saying "do this with someone else, make more babies." I'm not an expert on it of course, but I've spent quite an amount of time learning about the topic, so that's my current understanding.

To your other point... what IS marriage if it's not forever and all time? Isn't that the universal idea of what marriage is--that you and one other person will be exclusive until death do you part? If you're not doing that you're just going steady right?

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by Cyllya

Are you still going to be polyamorous or do you not feel the need for that anymore?

I had a question along those lines. My question was more of "How do you now feel about the polyamory model that involves having one primary partner while having other secondary partners vs having simple a polyamory model that doesn't recognize primary/secondary and views everyone the same"

However, Steve's response isn't really needed for that, it's something each of us has to choose and work out for ourselves, including whether we want to do one of the variant of monogamous relationships. But I was a little bit curious .

[Savage]

I didn't pursue polyamory for the sex. As I've said in previous interviews about it, Erin is the only person I've had sex with during our entire marriage, including this past year of being poly. It was never my intention to go out and have sex with a bunch of other people. That's not why I wanted to pursue polyamory. I know there have been lots of juvenile comments to that effect, but they don't reflect reality; they only reflect the poster's lack of maturity.

My interest in polyamory (i.e. "many loves") was to have an experience of emotional and spiritual intimacy with other people, not to "sow my wild oats." And so that's what I did -- to varying degrees of depth -- and I found it very rewarding. And yes I'm still following that path, and I expect to continue with it.

I took a lot of emotional risks on this path, putting myself in a fairly vulnerable position by opening up to people I didn't know that well, but it's been magical so far. When I keep my heart open and show other people that I trust them implicitly, they do respond in kind, and a very deep connection and a sense of knowing each other can be created very quickly (within days).

When I started on this path though, I couldn't rule out the possibility of having sex with other people because for me, that can be a natural consequence of emotional intimacy, assuming there's a physical attraction as well. I connect with my heart first, my body second, but I know that my body likes to follow my heart.

I went right up to the edge of nearly having sex with another woman that I was emotionally intimate with (and still am), but it didn't feel quite right to either of us to go all the way. It would have been too much too soon. So we stopped short, and we both feel that was the right choice for now. I can't predict what the future holds though. Right now we're just enjoying our emotional/spiritual connection without feeling a need to push it too fast.

Sharing my heart with another human being is incredibly rewarding. There is the potential for very deep levels of joy and sorrow, and I've been experiencing both swings. I really don't see how I can open myself up to one without also inviting the potential for the other.

Maybe I'm just a little different, but I find a woman's heart so much more intoxicating than her body, regardless of how physically attractive she may be. I love getting to know the depths of another person's soul as she gets to know mine as well, as we peel back the layers of each other's stories and discover the unconditionally loving beings we truly are. Whether sex happens or not is almost irrelevant compared to the joys I experience from this kind of connectedness with another human being.

This pursuit did help me recognize that being married no longer resonated with me. It's the wrong vehicle for how I wish to connect with others. I don't feel good about committing to one person in such a way that it puts up a scarecrow to ward off other potential connections. Knowing what I now know, I wouldn't have gotten married in the first place, and I feel it's wise to bring my relationship identity in line with my current inner reality.

The connection I have with Erin is very precious to me, and it will continue on in a new form. I still love her very much. But I realized that I'm happier keeping my heart open to others and inviting a similar level of depth in new relationships as well. Consequently, my marriage is something that I'm ready to release and let go of, so that my inner reality and outer reality can get back into sync.

This also gives me the opportunity to create a new role for myself as father to my kids. I love them very much and want the best for them, but my marriage to Erin was the wrong vehicle for being the best father I could be, and it was also the wrong vehicle for Erin to be the best mother she could be. Our incompatibilities stunted us both when it came to parenting. But already, things have improved massively, and our kids are much happier for it. So I'm optimistic about this part of our lives. I think that our separating is going to work out beautifully for all of us, including our children.

Polyamory is a weak word to describe this experience. Perhaps open-heartedness is a better word. Some days it feels like I'm walking on the edge of a blade between heartbreak and bliss. But I wouldn't have it any other way. For me this is most definitely the path with a heart.

[TheAndySan]

One thing that I don't understand is why you're not seeking shared custody.

I know you said that you don't want your kids to grow up in a split house, but to be blunt, hasn't that already happened since you and Erin separated?

It's one thing to divorce your wife, but it's another matter entirely to separate yourself from your kids. You did say that you'd be involved with them, but you didn't sound too enthused about it. You made that sentence sound arbitrary so that people don't crack down on you for "leaving your kids" or what have you.

Personally, I feel that you have all the best intentions for your ex-wife and your kids, but your words aren't very convincing of this.

[ellie]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

For me this is most definitely the path with a heart.

Cool, I've learnt somethings from this thread. You can't always interpret what one writes online properly 2. I was immature

I think many women on here will now go "awwwwwwwwwe" with your last reply.

Good luck on your journey

[Savage]

Originally Posted by TheAndySan

One thing that I don't understand is why you're not seeking shared custody.

Because it would be worse for the kids. It would only perpetuate the incompatibilities in our parenting styles, create undue stress for the kids, and most likely generate long-term mutual resentment. No thanks. Better for the kids to be raised with a single consistent parenting style than two conflicted styles.

[TheAndySan]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Because it would be worse for the kids. It would only perpetuate the incompatibilities in our parenting styles, create undue stress for the kids, and most likely generate long-term mutual resentment. No thanks. Better for the kids to be raised with a single consistent parenting style than two conflicted styles.

I guess that makes sense. But in that case, why didn't you raise the kids? I'd like to know, even though somebody will probably go, "Because the kids need a mother in their lives more than a father" or some other Midwestern nugget of wisdom

[bunnyman]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

being married no longer resonated with me. It's the wrong vehicle for how I wish to connect with others.

Then, does this mean that the separation/divorce is mainly about how you feel about being married?

I am having some trouble understanding how a couple can be so close and happy together, and then decide to separate. Isn't the ultimate goal of marriage to find someone you can be happy with? The principle of Oneness tells us that there is no need to find "just one" person, since we are all part of the same whole. Does that mean that there is no need for marriage when we all love each other?

[Vasilisa]

We didn't know so much about Steve and Erin, that it's shocking.
I think it might be that Steve just fell in love with a different woman (the one he has a deep emotional connection with). Living together for 15 years, Erin and Steve became like relatives, there is nothing new or mysterios left.
I don't worry about Steve, he'll be fine, whole bunch of money and a new life are awaiting for him.
My support and love to Erin.

[TheAndySan]

Originally Posted by bunnyman

Then, does this mean that the separation/divorce is mainly about how you feel about being married?

I am having some trouble understanding how a couple can be so close and happy together, and then decide to separate. Isn't the ultimate goal of marriage to find someone you can be happy with? The principle of Oneness tells us that there is no need to find "just one" person, since we are all part of the same whole. Does that mean that there is no need for marriage when we all love each other?

Pretty much, from my understanding.

But Steve got a divorce because he and Erin felt that they were being pressured into doing or not doing certain things because they're married and at that point, they began to work on serving the marriage itself, and all of the values and beliefs that are implied by it, instead of their own relationship.

At least, this is how I interpreted it. Only Steve and Erin know for sure.

[Savage]

Originally Posted by TheAndySan

I guess that makes sense. But in that case, why didn't you raise the kids? I'd like to know, even though somebody will probably go, "Because the kids need a mother in their lives more than a father" or some other Midwestern nugget of wisdom

Erin and I discussed those options and others and chose the one we felt was best for all of us. The details are more than I care to discuss in a forum post, but it has nothing to do with lame gender roles. This decision was personal.

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by ellie

I think many women on here will now go "awwwwwwwwwe" with your last reply.

Not just women, I went like that too

[ellie]

Originally Posted by seeker5

Not just woman, I went like that too

aaaaaawwwwwwww