Separation (Blog)

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by cylon

But my parents were not amicable in divorcing. I grew up with them both badmouthing each other, through me.

That's a good point, it's bad when parents badmouth each other to their kids.

When my parents divorced, I found out once I was an adult that my father had made a decision at that moment. He had decided he would never badmouth my mother to my sister and I. He had decided that she would still be our mother regardless of what happened between him and her, so he decided he would never tell us anything bad about her, nor complain about her to us. And he pretty much didn't and I'm very glad he did. My mother and my father also stayed amicable toward each other all of these years, and I bet that helped keep things amicable.

[cylon]

If I'm ever in that position, I'll try to do the same. Kids aren't responsible for how their parents feel about each other, yet it is so easy to use them to hurt the other parent, in order to make a point.

Just more personal reasons for me that I don't necessarily want to get married. I'd like to avoid repeating all the crap I witnessed growing up.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by ellie

I don't think parents need to be together to create a stable home, as long as their is love and respect I see no problem. A home is more stable when it's honest and open. Kids are smart, they detect when things are just done for the sake of it. It sounds as though in your heart marriage is already a sacrifice, so don't do it. The strength would be in going against what society expects, and go for what feels right in your heart and teach your children the importance of being true to themselves too

Very good advice. I just know if I have kids I'm going to be extremely sensitive to the emotional environment (or environments) they are raised in.

[brand302]

I also have plenty of emotions running wild after reading about the seperation, but I have such an incredible respect for Steve and Erin. You must have known that some people would make up all kinds of crazy conclusions and celebrate your "failure".

I just ant to say; thank you for sharing your decision with us in such an open and honest manner.

I wish you everything that is good.

[rei]

i don't really feel that close to Steve or Erin as i just started involvement in this space recently, but this is big news and i'd like to comment.

i can see how a conscious decision to pursue polyamory could end in separation. my two favorite college professors were married, had a swinger relationship that actually worked for several years, but then they had different perspectives about it (one wanted to continue swinging, the other did not)... they divorced.

to me, Steve seems to be very hung up on the way marriage feels confining. it doesn't have to feel confining but i can understand the urge to rebel - by pursuing a path that feels more like our own truth. still i see a twinge of rebelliousness on principle here, more about the confining feeling than just a matter of following the heart.

also this feels like much more Steve's preference than Erin's. if anything, i think she agreed because she would prefer that Steve do what he feels is best than try to coerce him into staying against his will. i will say i respect her for that. also if she is incredibly intuitive she probably felt this coming.

this doesn't bring up any memories for me as my parents separated through the death of my dad, not by choice. i can imagine children of divorced parents might be triggered by the news.

Steve and Erin, i wish for you clarity, peace of mind, and for your children to constantly know they are loved and are in no way blamed for this. best of luck to you both in achieving your highest good.

[rhyaand]

Steve,

I had the experience of being the child of a divorce when I was 6 years old. I am still haunted by the night my mom sat us down and told us that my dad wouldn't be living with us anymore. I remember it in technicolor. I remember feeling that it was my fault and that I wasn't good enough to have my dad stick around to share my life. That feeling stayed with me for many many years. As an adult, I can see that wasn't reality, but as a kid that's how I processed it. Most accounts of adult children of divorced families report the same experience/feelings. There is no stronger emotional impression in my life than the experience of not having my father around while I grew up. I'm mostly over it now 32 years later.

I've never felt compelled to participate in your forums. Steve, I sincerely hope that you are aware of the massively important role you play in your children's emotional growth and sense of themselves in the world, whether you physically live with them or not. The most important thing you can do to help them become the very best version of themselves is to give them the unshakable foundation of knowing that they are loved and lovable. Erin can't do it all by herself. This is on you whether you are fully aware of it or not.

There's nothing that can do more to give them that sense of being loved and feeling lovable than actually physically being there in there life, loving them as much as possible. Phone calls and an occasional weekend (or longer) together won't do it. You will have to figure out what works best in your situation, but I hope you take this note to heart and really figure out what you can do to make sure you can give that to your kids.

A final thought - if you believe that relationships are a mirror (you may not), do you see anything in the mirror of your relationship with Erin that you are denying to accept in yourself? Does your separation really even have anything to do with the reasons you gave, or is it possible that (unconsciously) you want to have these reasons which act as a cover for not having to confront/accept something in yourself that you are (unconsciously) denying?

-Ryan

[StarieEyed]

You know what I have heard of parents doing whenn wanting to share custody but not wanting the kids to have to travel back and fourth is that they have two places of residence. One the kids live in, and the parents travel back and fourth and the other the parents share. If you wanted to, and again just throwing this out there in case you have not thought of it, you can have the kids live in the big house, one bedroom for each, one for Erin, one for Steve and an office for each. The other house, one bedroom for each and one office for each. Most ppl aren't willing to make this kind of sacrifice for thier kids but just wanted to share.

[cylon]

One thing that is often overlooked is that physical attraction is vital. Once that wears off (and biologically, it's designed to wear off), the relationship is pretty much on the way out. Once that fire goes out, it's like a brother and sister relationship. Then the loins start stirring to move on. Married adults with children who lose the fire are expected to just abandon the hopes of being excited sexually ever again, or to go to counseling and try to trick each other into believing that they are still hot for each other. (The only thing I know of that is supposed to counter this is non-orgasmic lovemaking. Through that, the chemicals that are designed to make us want to leave our partners don't kick in and we stay emotionally bonded for a longer period.)

When the couple are physically still in lust, they can accommodate just about any personal idiosyncrasy or weird habit the other has, because they are awash in that cocktail of hormones and chemicals. Once those chemicals wear off, those weird habits become larger than life and unbearable. People who are horny for each other, stay together until that goes away. That's an essential element and it's almost taboo to mention it.

Because in this society we're expected to think that wanting to be physically and sexually interested in our mates after a certain period of time is selfish or childish or what have you. We're expected to sublimate those desires to the greater good, to the institution of monogamy itself, as if there were such a an entity that existed outside of people's minds.

[Manomanman]

Originally Posted by cylon

People who are horny for each other, stay together until that goes away. That's an essential element and it's almost taboo to mention it.

EXCELLENT POINT. More people need to understand this.

[rhyaand]

Originally Posted by cylon

...physical attraction... Once that wears off (and biologically, it's designed to wear off), the relationship is pretty much on the way out.

My opinion is that we're capable of actually choosing that. We can choose to believe that we're not in control of whether the biological attraction "wears off" as it's "designed to". I'm sure there are plenty of scientific studies to support that belief. But it's just a belief. There's another belief that says we can consciously choose attraction, and renew it endlessly, based on what we pay attention to, and the emotion we infuse it with. They're all choices.

Our minds are pretty good at coming up with great reasons to support any choice we make, even if we didn't consciously make the choice. Perhaps it's a matter of how conscious we are of our choice-making.

[rhyaand]

Originally Posted by cylon

When the couple are physically still in lust, they can accommodate just about any personal idiosyncrasy or weird habit the other has, because they are awash in that cocktail of hormones and chemicals. Once those chemicals wear off...

The chemicals happen because of the way we've chosen to think about the other person (and our self). The chemicals don't necessarily just happen to us. They just happen to animals, and animals live in a completely deterministic world. We have the ability to choose. So I'm just trying to say that we're ultimately responsible for what happens in our internal pharmacy, whether we accept it or not.

[cylon]

Well, I touched on that earlier.

Originally Posted by cylon

(The only thing I know of that is supposed to counter this is non-orgasmic lovemaking. Through that, the chemicals that are designed to make us want to leave our partners don't kick in and we stay emotionally bonded for a longer period.)

There's a book called Cupid's Poisoned Arrow that goes more into this, if you're interested. That's where some of my info on this topic is coming from.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by StarieEyed

You know what I have heard of parents doing whenn wanting to share custody but not wanting the kids to have to travel back and fourth is that they have two places of residence. One the kids live in, and the parents travel back and fourth and the other the parents share. If you wanted to, and again just throwing this out there in case you have not thought of it, you can have the kids live in the big house, one bedroom for each, one for Erin, one for Steve and an office for each. The other house, one bedroom for each and one office for each. Most ppl aren't willing to make this kind of sacrifice for thier kids but just wanted to share.

I second this option. It is a great way for the children to feel important and have their own stuff around.

It could even be 1 week Steve, 2 weeks Erin, whatever you decide, but the children would not need to have 2 bedrooms, 2 sets of clothes, 2 lives basically...

[James81]

Originally Posted by StarieEyed

You know what I have heard of parents doing whenn wanting to share custody but not wanting the kids to have to travel back and fourth is that they have two places of residence. One the kids live in, and the parents travel back and fourth and the other the parents share. If you wanted to, and again just throwing this out there in case you have not thought of it, you can have the kids live in the big house, one bedroom for each, one for Erin, one for Steve and an office for each. The other house, one bedroom for each and one office for each. Most ppl aren't willing to make this kind of sacrifice for thier kids but just wanted to share.

I really don't think the physical residence is *that* big a deal to a kid. I think it's more important that they get time with each parent than it is for them to have one stable home that they never leave.

In fact, I think that kids would probably enjoy having two houses moreso than one. I remember as a kid growing up in the same old house and never moving how much I just wanted to live somewhere *different* because I got so tired of the same ole humdrum house everyday.

So, no, I don't think it's necessary or even a good idea to make one home that the parents filter in and out of. If anything, that could be a bone of contention between the parents which would just create more tension for the kids. (the contention being should one of them "invade" the other's space, if the house isn't clean to each other's standards, who buys the food, etc.) Just creates more hassle and more problems than it's worth, IMO.

[rhyaand]

Originally Posted by cylon

Well, I touched on that earlier.



There's a book called Cupid's Poisoned Arrow that goes more into this, if you're interested. That's where some of my info on this topic is coming from.

Yikes, that sounds like no fun at all (the non-orgasmic part )

Just having sex to keep the chemicals in line is not what I mean by choosing. That sounds more like taking a sedative to repress an emotion instead of consciously choosing one.

[Curtis2011]

Steve, maybe you could write an article talking about the warning signs that two people are incompatible, marriage-wise? (Like signs that told you it was time to break up; also you mentioned that you and Erin had differences since b4 you were married - maybe talk about those?)


I wish you the best and I think everyone who has had a meaningful relationship can relate at least to the sadness half of your grief/joy (though you are pretty lucky to get the joy half as well).

[JSB]

Originally Posted by rhyaand

Yikes, that sounds like no fun at all (the non-orgasmic part )

Non-orgasmic lovemaking has it's own charms, when done in an intimate loving relationship. It changes the focus from getting off to being absorbed in the moment and aware of one's partner and one's own pleasure and experience --- when done in the right frame of mind and with an open heart, combined with eye contact and a deep gaze, it's the most powerful way I know to bond with your lover and create a powerful energetic connection (qi flow), but I only recommend it if you and your partner are already in love and committed to one another.

It's not something I prefer all the time --- I'm not looking to give up mutual orgasms --- but long slow sessions of non-orgasmic sex are mind-blowing in their own way.

[borisg]

Unfortunately for Steve and his family, he is now going to experience what so many millions of others have. Separation, divorce, and heartbreak. Heartbreak that may not be there now, but will raise its head in the future.

I do see one good thing may come of this and that is that Steve will be able to put his talented thinking into some great relationship articles.

Heartbreak is a debiliating condition for many people. A condition that can last a lifetime.

[Steve Pavlina]

Originally Posted by borisg

Unfortunately for Steve and his family, he is now going to experience what so many millions of others have. Separation, divorce, and heartbreak. Heartbreak that may not be there now, but will raise its head in the future.

I do see one good thing may come of this and that is that Steve will be able to put his talented thinking into some great relationship articles.

Heartbreak is a debiliating condition for many people. A condition that can last a lifetime.

I can cope with heartbreak. It can be a good catalyst for growth.

[Betrade]

Originally Posted by amj

I was a little surprised to hear this but then again, it really doesn't surprise me. Polymory and marriage don't go hand in hand unless the woman doesn't mind the man spending time with other women and having sex with other women.

Most women can't deal with a man's sexual appetite. This is why many commited men sneak around and cheat on their woman. It's hard for men to control that urge.

It's funny, because my experience has been the exact opposite. Almost every diovorced man I know left because they had unfaithful wives, yet men are constantly stereotypes as being cheaters.

I think that used to be very true, or more true than it is now; but nowadays, I have personally seen way more more women doin' the cheating than men.

That's MY experience in the are where I live; among the circle of friends that I have, but it amazes me that I know so many men who had, and some who still have unfaithful wives.

Also, in almost every case, it was either with someone in the workplace, or a close friend that the wives saw frequently. Later, it became more frequent with people that they met online.

The internet has opened doors to unfaithfulness that no one ever dreamed of. There are websites with married people looking for sexual partners and it seems like it's no big deal to these people.


I think this whole sexual revolution thing has turned out to be a disaster in many ways. That's the way I see it anyway.

When I was a kid, divorce carried a stigma. Now, it's almost expected and people actually congratulate people when they go through it. I find that quite insane. Even an amicable divorce can be a very traumatic experience; especially when kids are involved.

So many people seem to forget that this is a situation where two people really wanted to make a life together at some pint, tried to, and something went terribly wrong, and it's not pleasant in most cases.

When I hear of another person separating or divorcing I usually say something like "I'm sorry to hear that" and "How are the kids taking it so far"?? I always advise anyone, especially men; to stay in very close contact with their kids as well; because I have seen what can happen when they don't. I certainly would never congratulate anyone going through a divorce.

[NDavid]

Steve, I wish you, Erin and your kids all the best with this new transitional phase in your lives. It might feel tough, but at least you've both come to this decision by following your hearts. Best wishes to you all :-)

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by cylon

Well the world is made up of all types of people, as you'll learn when you get older and get some more experience under your belt.

I certainly don't deny that the world is full of such people. I've tried the burning the candle at both ends thing and I just don't find it appealing anymore for some reason. That's why I wonder how much of it might be chemical addiction - not that most people necessarily want to be cured. But then again most H addicts will tell you they don't want to be cured.

[colonel]

I wouldn't say I'd seen it coming. But then again, I also didn't see it coming in my last relationship that I had to quit for the same main reason: incompatible goals, compromise, a limit to my own path of personal growth.
Unfortunately, my girlfriend was not able to understand and thus we didn't really agree on ending the relationship and we're still not talking to each other... which makes me pretty sad because we were best friends (besides being lovers ) and now that's gone, too.
So it's great to see that some long-term relationships can end in a "good way"

Thanks again for the open and honest communication, I'm sure it wasn't easy for you. It has brought me some additional clarity about my own past relationships (and especially their "official endings").

Good luck on this new path, you have my continued support!

And if I ever make a trip to Vegas I'll request to surf your couch... can't be hard to find a spare one with 6 bedrooms

[cylon]

Originally Posted by yossarian

I certainly don't deny that the world is full of such people. I've tried the burning the candle at both ends thing and I just don't find it appealing anymore for some reason. That's why I wonder how much of it might be chemical addiction - not that most people necessarily want to be cured. But then again most H addicts will tell you they don't want to be cured.

Just because someone has a different view than you doesn't mean they are chemically imbalanced.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by rhyaand

Yikes, that sounds like no fun at all (the non-orgasmic part )

Just having sex to keep the chemicals in line is not what I mean by choosing. That sounds more like taking a sedative to repress an emotion instead of consciously choosing one.

It's very different than what we're raised to believe, no doubt about it at all. In fact the book is very much about the false belief that it is the orgasm itself that makes us feel better and is the most fun, when in reality, the aftermath of the orgasm is what causes fights, lethargy, and that icky feeling that your partner's bad habits are actually a major deal.

In a nutshell, once you've reached orgasm you get a rush of chemicals that say "I'm done with this person--let's find a new mate". Supposedly, without the orgasm, the lovemaking is supposed to be even better because it can last for extremely long periods of time, and you can stay in that sort of blissed-out, attachment feeling for your partner indefinitely. The book is full of examples of people who changed their sex-habits and say the sex is better and that they actually feel as attracted if not more attracted to their partner as they did when they first met. Essentially they are amping up the bonding hormone (oxytocin) and doing away completely with the "break-up" hormone (prolactin) that follows immediately after an orgasm.

Again, look it up and make up your own mind about it---but don't judge the entire concept based on what you've seen from me. It's a complex topic with lots of interesting conclusions and it's worth investigating. I'll leave it at that since I don't want to derail the thread.

[rhyaand]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

I can cope with heartbreak. It can be a good catalyst for growth.

Is it really all ultimately about growth? Growth is wonderful, but growth for what purpose? My own dad left because he felt he couldn't grow anymore with my mom, they had different goals, etc. He is hasn't really grown much beyond where he was 32 years ago when he left. Self-absorbed and and unaware about a lot of things (even though he was the one that introduced me to self-help and personal development). There's a level of denial about the situation that he'll never be able to accept because of the lifetime of beliefs he has accumulated about the whys/hows of his divorce from my mom.

I guess the hard thing is to become aware of the things your mind wants to keep you unaware of (the mind has it's own reasons) but may not help the journey of your soul. Ultimately, any problem/difficulty in our close relationships is a hint about what we are denying or unaware of within ourselves.

[Littletubesoftoothpaste]

Sorry to hear about the divorce but glad if it makes you and Erin happier people.

I read your article "Too Good to Go, Too Bad to Stay" as I negotiate myself through a relationship/marriage minefield. I've always deep down questioned whether it is feasible/practical to expect that two people can live out their lives happily together, especially if they get married at a young age - which I did. I feel I've changed and my husband has not. I want different things for my life daily and long term and I do not believe that together we can make that happen. However, I'm also acutely aware that I will never meet anyone with whom I'm as compatible or who loves me more deeply than he. But I find myself sexually attracted to other men all the time and feel that I can no longer continue to be married when my mind heart and sometimes body is elsewhere. Years ago, sensing perhaps this need in me, I broached the notion of an open marriage with my partner who poohpoohed it - he being a devoutly religious person. And yet perhaps I can sense from your article that even going outside of a marriage for sexual and spiritual fulfillment is not necessarily a solution for a flawed relationship and perhaps can even spur it to an end. (I've seen this also with my gay friends who've experimented with outside partners).
Anyway I will continue to read your blog and see how life without marriage works and whether ultimately being good friends (in my own case) can be enough to keep a relationship afloat.
Peace.

[Radactrice]

Originally Posted by bright

Well, from my point of view, you only get to live once so you have to make the best out of it and put your happiness above everything else. He's not abandoning the kids, he's still going to pay the child support and keep up his financial obligations. He's probably also going to regularly remain in touch with them.

But other than that, he has every right to live his own life and have his own space and freedom if he wants to.

This has been bugging me since I read it. What if Erin felt the same way? What if she wanted to put her happiness above everything else as well? If she said she didn't want custody either so she was turning the kids over to CPS, but she wasn't abandoning them because she was still going to send some money and keep up her financial obligations and remain in touch with them would you think that was a great idea?

Once you have children, you give up your right to your space and unlimited free while the kids are dependent on you. If that weren't the case, the first time that squalling little thing you brought home woke you up in the night, you would have the right to bash in its head and toss the debris in the morning trash. Once you procreate, you have an obligation to those lives. If you want total freedom then don't have children.

And Erin and Steve, I don't think either of you are going to abandon your children. It wouldn't be the conscious thing to do.

[Anna Conlan]

Originally Posted by rhyaand

Is it really all ultimately about growth? Growth is wonderful, but growth for what purpose? My own dad left because he felt he couldn't grow anymore with my mom, they had different goals, etc. He is hasn't really grown much beyond where he was 32 years ago when he left. Self-absorbed and and unaware about a lot of things (even though he was the one that introduced me to self-help and personal development). There's a level of denial about the situation that he'll never be able to accept because of the lifetime of beliefs he has accumulated about the whys/hows of his divorce from my mom.

I guess the hard thing is to become aware of the things your mind wants to keep you unaware of (the mind has it's own reasons) but may not help the journey of your soul. Ultimately, any problem/difficulty in our close relationships is a hint about what we are denying or unaware of within ourselves.

All you have is your perception, your story about your father. Even if he is your dad, you can't truly know if he's grown or not in the last 32 years because you're not him.

Likewise, I don't think anyone on this board knows what is best for Steve and Erin.

[Xin]

Dear Steve,

You've got to be kidding me. So much for the role model, man.