Separation (Blog)

[Erin Pavlina]

I'm planning to write up a blog entry this morning to discuss our separation. I know people want to hear from me and since things are running rampant on facebook, twitter, and the forums, I figure the blog will be the apex that will seed them all so I don't have to comment everywhere. So stay tuned.

Thank you to the hundreds of people who have sent me well wishes and support. Very much appreciated.

[JoeRad]

Originally Posted by Remiel

But now? How am I supposed to respect you when you've practically abandoned your kids?

Kind of were my thoughts are. I'm sure this hasn't been as mutual as Steve would like to think because Erin and he did not make a joint statement. I know from Public Relations that this is a version of "controlling the story"...Steve "came out" about this first, so that his story is out there first, and thus the first impression when people see the story breaking.

Not that thats particularly wrong, but seems a little less "loving" then I'd come to expect. I suspect that the children are going to seriously suffer as a result. Again, I had thought that one couple in this world had figured it out; how to keep a high level of experimentation and awareness and still keep a loving, stable relationship that allows the children a strong, and unique upbringing.

Looks like it didn't work out too well. And if they can't do it.....

[Amro]

Originally Posted by JoeRad

Kind of were my thoughts are. I'm sure this hasn't been as mutual as Steve would like to think because Erin and he did not make a joint statement. I know from Public Relations that this is a version of "controlling the story"...Steve "came out" about this first, so that his story is out there first, and thus the first impression when people see the story breaking.

Not that thats particularly wrong, but seems a little less "loving" then I'd come to expect. I suspect that the children are going to seriously suffer as a result. Again, I had thought that one couple in this world had figured it out; how to keep a high level of experimentation and awareness and still keep a loving, stable relationship that allows the children a strong, and unique upbringing.

Looks like it didn't work out too well. And if they can't do it.....

You're making a lot of assumptions. Who said that these cannot be present outside of marriage?

There ARE other paradigms.

[vojta]

I agree with Bliss Sage about the obligation to kids! Also, I have similar feelings like expressed by Remiel, although I'm not yet sure what my final reaction will be. I don't think I'll stop reading Steve's blog altogether, but my view of Steve changed radically indeed.

edit: I'm not judging anyone nor their decisions, just describing feeling I have.

[Erin Pavlina]

Steve wrote the blog entry with input from me, and I approved the entry before he posted it. everything he wrote was true and came from us both. I know people are making assumptions about intent and how things are going to turn out for us and the kids, but please refrain from making fearful comments based on assumptions.

[James81]

Meh, when it comes to the kids I can sort of relate to how it feels to want to just walk away entirely. When I first separated, I demanded a paternity test for both of them because secretly I was hoping that they weren't mine. I know that sounds terrible, but the emotional toll it took on me to only see them a couple of days a week was pretty rough.

I think in time, though, you'll come to realize that the kids are an important part of your life (they are just as important to you as you are to them), and so long as you keep making an attempt to remain in their lives, the emotional toll/aspects will get easier.

It takes time to adjust though. And you have to learn this stuff on your own (no amount of us hounding you or judging you will convince you).

[alexhere]

Steve and Erin, thanks for sharing this with us. It sounds like an exciting time for your family.

I'm glad to hear the business will continue and am looking forward to seeing what happens next.

[Bing Wu]

Wow, I'm surprised by the judgement some of you are laying on Steve... when it's clear he didn't come to this point easily, and in any event, his arrangement with regards to custody of his kids is a legal arrangement, just like his marriage was. Why would you say he's "abandoning" his kids? He recognizes that his kids are better off with Erin, but they also live only 6 miles from each other!

We don't know the whole story, and writing/sharing something so personal probably isn't easy, even for someone like Steve. It's probably a very emotional experience, even if he seemed to approach it matter-of-factly in his blog. Realize that even if you don't personally jive with the choices Steve has made, there are many growth lessons for everyone in his experience.

[Manomanman]

Great,

Now Steve is going to become a Worthy Playboy.

We're going to hear blog after blog about how he's living a crazy life with 100's of different women, lots of intrigue and adventure. It's going to become a playboy/seduction blog now

[wqweto]

There is this very simple agreement that instructors on Large Group Awareness Trainings do. It's don't make major changes in your life for 4 weeks after the seminar! You want to quit job immediately, you want to get a divorce immediatly, but wait for at least couple of weeks to get grounded.

If your decision is made before the seminar, then you can go on and do it. The higher energy after a seminar is not a good advisor in this case. Hope you are not making a capital mistake here.

cheers,
</wqw>

[James81]

Originally Posted by wqweto

There is this very simple agreement that instructors on Large Group Awareness Trainings do. It's don't make major changes in your life for 4 weeks after the seminar! You want to quit job immediately, you want to get a divorce immediatly, but wait for at least couple of weeks to get grounded.

If your decision is made before the seminar, then you can go on and do it. The higher energy after a seminar is not a good advisor in this case. Hope you are not making a capital mistake here.

cheers,
</wqw>

The decision to divorce is usually one that is a long time coming. I highly doubt that this decision started after the workshop and ended just a mere three weeks later.

Divorce is usually something that builds up for a while (at least a year) before you realize that you have to do something.

[CroMagna]

Erin,

Do you have the short end of the stick here? How will you be polyamorous when you are in the mother phase of life with two children?

Steve will attract tons of young girls because he's wealthy and friendly and he doesn't have children at home. That 6-bedroom house can entertain many people.

[Gene]

Originally Posted by JustBe

I wonder if it is possible to downgrade a relationship and not grow out of each other.

Going from marriage to open relationship is a downgrade (for her).

I would ask the parties involved if either of them see the open relationship phase as a downgrade. I am simply unable to know what either of them thinks, feels, wants at any moment unless they have communicated with me/us about their experience.

[Betrade]

I wish you both the best, but I really hope and pray that you're making the right decision; for everyone's sake. All marriages go through rough patches, which is exactly why those warnings are written into the vows. They're letting you know in advance that there WILL be bad times, sickness, poor times, etc. They should never be taken lightly by anyone under any circumstances.

I've been separated for 8 years now, and as it turned out, neither my wife or myself have really found any 'greener pastures". We have two kids who no one else can ever love the way that we do; so we'll always have that in common and have that connection no matter what, and the impact on them has been negative for the most part I'm sorry to say, despite the fact that we both see them daily. I'm not a "weekend" Dad (thank God; that would have been the end of me). I'm very fortunate that I see my kids on a daily basis. Most men (well; mostly men) aren't so fortunate.

I hate to see any family break up. I know that incompatibilities DO exist and all that, but in reality, no two people are completely compatible. That's an unrealistic concept. The idea of being "happy" all the time is also unrealistic. Life will always present challenges in some form or another. The beauty of a marriage is that they can be faced together, instead of alone. That's one thing that I truly personally miss about being married. That 'rock" that was always there no longer exists, and it's affected me in ways I can't even fully understand; even 8 years later. I'm not sure I ever will. I just get up and do what I'm supposed to do and keep doing it; just plugging along and trying to remain as positive as I can under the circumstances.



I would advise anyone considering separation or divorce to think long and hard about it and consider every little detail and potential consequence, especially where kids are involved.

Those kids can have a thousand friends from broken homes, but don't ever believe that divorce won't affect them. It will; and it can, and very often does last a lifetime. Sure, kids are very resilient, but it will affect even the strongest and most well adjusted kids in some way. If you believe that it won't, you';re only fooling yourself. It takes a long time for the reality of it to even sink in, so if they're doing great now, don't be surprised if they're not a year or two from now. I hope that this isn't the case, but keep a close eye on them and if they need help, don't hesitate to get it for them.

The relationships with the kids will change too. That was something I never dreamed could happen, but it did. It's not all bad, but it was so much better before the separation.


I'm sorry to hear that this is happening. I truly hope that it works out for the best for all concerned; especially the kids. They didn't choose this but they have to deal with it.

Oh, and second marriages have an even higher failure rate than first marriages do, so, that's something to think about too.

Divorce is a very traumatic experience and it affects so many people. I had no idea how many people would be affected when I went through it. I was actually shocked at how many people were.

If I could go back in time, I would have tried SO MUCH harder to save my marriage and family as an intact unit. I DID try very hard; but reached a point where there was just no use in trying anymore. It's truly been the biggest heartbreak of my life in retrospect; and it's a decision I'll always regret. I loved being a husband and father. I still love being a father, but it's different now. I love my kids more than anything, but things have just never been the same. We all love each other and all of that stuff, but I still have to say "goodbye" every day to my oldest son; and that hurts to this day. It's just something I never thought could happen 'to us"; but it did.

My youngest lives with me and stays with his mother while I work, and he's helped me through this in ways I can't describe, and in ways he's not even aware of just by being there. I thank God for that every day because at least I have that piece of my family with me, but again, it's not the same.

I would advise Steve to stay in constant contact with the kids. Don't let a single day pass without talking to them and telling them how much you love them. If you start waiting between contact times, or do the every other weekend thing, everyone will suffer in some way. 4 days a month and one or two nights a week is nothing. What about the other 26 or 27 days very month??

I can't imagine how anyone can even stand being in that position, but many men are forced into it by the courts. I wouldn't settle for anything less than full joint custody with unlimited "visitation". It REALLY sucks when the courts tell you when you can "visit" your own kids.

You live close enough to see them daily and I would advise that you do just that. I promise that you won't regret it and more importantly; they will never forget it either. It will mean so much to them and they need you; especially now. Kids need two parents and don't ever let anyone convince you otherwise. Don't ever allow that bond to weaken in any way because if it does, it's often very difficult to get things back to how they were; and sometimes it's just impossible.

That's my story and some of my thoughts, and I know that every case is different, but I feel like I have to at least tell people some of the things that can happen; that aren't necessarily "good" for anybody; and that divorce isn't always the answer to the problems you're facing. It very often (and usually does) creates a whole new set of problems that you never would have expected. Trust me on that one too. I've seen it SO many times and I wish I would have known more about the consequences before making that decision.

I wish you both the very best, and the same for your kids; especially the kids. I TRULY hope that you're doing the right thing and I can only say to be darn sure you're doing this for the right reasons. If it's all about "happiness", then you may end up disappointed. Happiness is very important; don't get me wrong, but so is commitment.

Happiness can also be very fleeting, it can come and go depending on lots of other things; but real comittment can always be there no matter what else is going on.

I don't like to sound negative, but I just REALLY hope this is the right thing. Like I said, breaking up a family is a huge deal. I thought "We're not really breaking up the family, we'll still see each other, etc.", but trust me, what I envisioned and truly believed at the time and what ultimately happened were two entirely different things, and I'm one of the truly lucky ones because I don't have to deal with the every other weekend thing, but again, it's not the same as living under the same roof, being there at any moment when they may need you, etc. It's not horrible, but I can't say it's great either. Living with my kids was FAR better than the current arrangement; even though I see them and talk to them daily, and even have one who lives with me.

Good Luck, and be strong, and even more importantly; available and accessible for your kids, They're really going to need both of you now. probably more than ever.

[bright]

Originally Posted by Bliss Sage

I'm sorry, this is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. If he didn't want kids, he should have thought of that before he had them! Isn't there enough people in the world farting out babies like so much excrement and then abandoning them or torturing them with their own insanity??

There is so much wrong with having kids and then deciding it was a mistake and going off to put your own happiness first!! Having kids is the biggest responsibility in the world!! Forget marriage! Raising kids is far more important! These are human beings!! You don't say, after making human beings "Well, there's nothing wrong if Steve doesn't want or like his kids. He's free to do whatever will make him happy." These are human beings who did not ask you to bring them into the world! You wittingly, and with full knowledge of what you were doing, brought them into the world yourself, by your own free will. You have the biggest obligation ever to them! Sorry, you are not free from your kids!!

Is there no limit to the self-consuming narcissism that has infiltrated PD?? I would have thought, at least, where children are concerned, this "your-happiness-is-all-that-matters" attitude would not have permeated.

Well, from my point of view, you only get to live once so you have to make the best out of it and put your happiness above everything else. He's not abandoning the kids, he's still going to pay the child support and keep up his financial obligations. He's probably also going to regularly remain in touch with them.

But other than that, he has every right to live his own life and have his own space and freedom if he wants to.

[freddy]

I would like to give Steve and Erin a big THANK YOU for being real and acting on what most folks think and sometimes feel about their relationship. There were times in my own relationship where I would question if I was meant to be with the person I choose. Now I was brought up with the idea once you are married you stay until you die mind set. . However when goals changes in a person life, are we to stay stuck and just accept being not totally happy with the situation? I would be most concerned with Erin and the children well being. But I think over the years of reading Steve’s site. He will continue to do what is right in support of what is best for his family obligation. And as Erin has mentioned, she seems to be cool with it. On one hand it saddens me. On the other hand it’s what Steve dose best. Push the envelope to the extreme. Well done guys.

[bright]

Originally Posted by Manomanman

Great,

Now Steve is going to become a Worthy Playboy.

We're going to hear blog after blog about how he's living a crazy life with 100's of different women, lots of intrigue and adventure. It's going to become a playboy/seduction blog now

I hope so. I've been wanting Steve to go in that direction for a while!

[Magicinthenight]

Originally Posted by bright

Well, from my point of view, you only get to live once so you have to make the best out of it and put your happiness above everything else. He's not abandoning the kids, he's still going to pay the child support and keep up his financial obligations. He's probably also going to regularly remain in touch with them.

But other than that, he has every right to live his own life and have his own space and freedom if he wants to.

That has got to be one of the most selfish, least conscious things I've ever read. Do you really think MONEY is what matters when it comes to raising children ("he's still going to pay the child support and keep up his financial obligations"). Furthermore, when you consciously CHOOSE to have children, you should be conscious of the fact that from that point on, you have a responsibility towards that child.

If you're not willing to meet your responsibilities as a parent (ie. being an active parent and taking active part in your childs lives) you shouldn't have kids. I work with children and it is absolutely clear that parents' lack of care has a big effect on a child.

Now I've no idea what Steven and Erin are planning to do so when it comes to taking care of their children so this post isn't aimed at them, but at the ridiculous assumption that somehow by pursuing higher consciousness and your own happiness you can ignore others' happiness.

In fact, I'm sure that once you reach a high enough level of consciousness you'll realise that loving others and sharing happiness with them is the ultimate goal in life, something that should be the utmost priority in a parent-child relationship instead of paying child support.

[smartile]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Use this thread to discuss the following entry from Steve Pavlina's blog:

Separation

Hi Steve,

I totally understand and can relate to your situation. I've been wondering myself if my vision for the future has enough overlap and synchronicity with my wife's vision for the future. Although I won't admit it publicly just yet, I wonder how things will unfold for us.

It takes a lot of courage to do what you did and I applaud you. It's what has made you great to listen to on your blog and to follow.

Steve

[Majesticzero]

After your post about polyamory I thought it was just a matter of time before this post would come.

I never experienced a divorce myself or with family or friends, but always thought of it as something bad. Now I see it can also be a good thing.


I hope the best for the both of you!

[James81]

Originally Posted by Magicinthenight

That has got to be one of the most selfish, least conscious things I've ever read. Do you really think MONEY is what matters when it comes to raising children ("he's still going to pay the child support and keep up his financial obligations"). Furthermore, when you consciously CHOOSE to have children, you should be conscious of the fact that from that point on, you have a responsibility towards that child.

If you're not willing to meet your responsibilities as a parent (ie. being an active parent and taking active part in your childs lives) you shouldn't have kids. I work with children and it is absolutely clear that parents' lack of care has a big effect on a child.

Now I've no idea what Steven and Erin are planning to do so when it comes to taking care of their children so this post isn't aimed at them, but at the ridiculous assumption that somehow by pursuing higher consciousness and your own happiness you can ignore others' happiness.

In fact, I'm sure that once you reach a high enough level of consciousness you'll realise that loving others and sharing happiness with them is the ultimate goal in life, something that should be the utmost priority in a parent-child relationship instead of paying child support.

Are you a single father by any chance?

[openeyes]

All I can say is congratulations to both of you for making this transition on good terms, consciously, and sharing with us here. My parents separated after being together for 30 years when I went off to college, with my dad moving into a house just a couple minute's walking distance away, and he and my mom have gotten along much better ever since. In many ways I wish they'd separated sooner, when they first saw that things weren't in line with what they wanted, rather than waiting until the kids were out of the house years later.

[Magicinthenight]

Originally Posted by James81

Are you a single father by any chance?

No, I'm a teacher and see what lack of parental love&care can do to a child on a daily basis so the post stuck a chord. And the abandonment issues children go through in a divorce (whichever parent is less available will be the one who "abandons" the child) are also quite evident in many children's behaviour.

I'm not at all saying people should stay in a bad marriage because of the children, only saying that once you have a reponsibility of raising a child you cannot buy your way out with child support.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by yossarian

Playing with the dog. The classics I guess. All this poly stuff and need for sex with 22-28 year olds just seems like a bunch of hype for neurotic people.

Well the world is made up of all types of people, as you'll learn when you get older and get some more experience under your belt.

[alphafox]

Originally Posted by smartile

Hi Steve,

Although I won't admit it publicly just yet, I wonder how things will unfold for us.

Steve

It would appear you just have Steve Martile!

I wish all the very best to Steve and Erin, however I don't believe just because their specific marriage hasn't worked means that marriage and monogamy are unworkable in all cases. I believe if you have a clear vision for your future and goals and find a partner with the same long term goals, outlook and values it *can* work. It does require honesty and clarity from both, and although people's goals can change over time, it doesn't necessarily mean they will amount to an impasse in the relationship. I remain optimistic about long term relationships despite the fact it has not worked out for Steve and Erin. Each to their own.

[ogrekilleat]

Originally Posted by bright

But other than that, he has every right to live his own life and have his own space and freedom if he wants to.

What if they both decided to do this? In fact, what if they stayed together and let the kids go live in the little house 6 miles away? Would you say they both have the right? Or does the fact that one of them has this right takes away the other's right?

[Betrade]

Originally Posted by Gene

I would ask the parties involved if either of them see the open relationship phase as a downgrade. I am simply unable to know what either of them thinks, feels, wants at any moment unless they have communicated with me/us about their experience.

I have a brother who went down the "open relationship" road with his wife. They agreed to it; they were both "fine with it"; blah, blah, blah.

What they thought was the latest and coolest thing (even though it's been around for eons) to do turned into a major disaster for the entire family and had major negative consequences. They have two kids, and their son has had all kinds of problems; not to mention the marital problems that inevitably followed that ill conceived, ill fated and incredibly stupid decision to "date' others while being married. I warned them, but they just wouldn't listen to me or anyone else. They had to learn the hard way. Fortunately, they DID learn.

Bringing third parties into a committed relationship is a recipe for disaster as far as the relationship is concerned in most cases; despite the people running around claiming how wonderful open marriages can be. I've seen relationships ruined through things like pornography, which isn't even real people; only images; but when married people agree to having intimate relationships with other people, how can they possibly they expect to remain truly committed to one another? I just can't even fathom the concept personally. What's the point of even being married if a couple can't even be faithful to one another?? It's not that difficult.

The way I see it, if someone wants to be intimate with numerous people; fine; but don't get married if that's what you're into. It's not hard to have numerous sexual partners and not marry any of them. It's very simple actually. If people want out of a marriage, then get out of it; THEN go find someone else. Why is that such a difficult thing to grasp for so many people??

I know I can't speak for everyone and we all have different values, but I would put my money on the fact that open marriages usually don't last very long and people in them don't, and in many cases, simply CAN'T really know what true commitment is. I would also put my money on the fact that many people get hurt really badly in those types of arrangements; sooner or later. People can take every precaution available, but they just don't make condoms for hearts and they never will.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Magicinthenight

No,

Then you really have no idea what the hell you are talking about, do you?

Look, I see your point because I've been a leader of sorts to kids my whole life (and am myself a single father btw).

But it's one thing to be standing outside of a situation looking in and saying all kinds of stuff on how things *should* be. It's something completely different to walk that path yourself and know what it's like.

How easy it is to stand outside and cast judgement on people for the decisions they make when we don't have to live with those decisions ourselves.

I really don't get the vibe that Steve is just going to up and abandon his kids, so I think most of what you are saying here doesn't really apply.

[cylon]

There are so many factors at play, no one couple's circumstances are the same thing. Steve's kids are fortunate in the fact that both of their parents love them. Steve is in a good position to see his children even more than a "regular married dad" would because he works for himself, sets his own schedule, and has the time and resources to see them and travel. Whatever he wants to do. So in the long run the actual quality time he spends with them, may be greater, and more meaningful, than a dad who works 12 hours a day at a job he hates, comes home at the end of the day full of bitterness and and feeling disempowered, with no time even for himself.

I think as long as the kid's parents truly love them, and make an effort, kids are ok.

In my situation, it was my Dad who got custody of me when I was six, if I grew up living with my mother I may have shot myself. But my parents were not amicable in divorcing. I grew up with them both badmouthing each other, through me. Don't have many memories of them actually being together. Whatever they had that was good, was when I was too little to remember anything.

On the one hand I tend to blame them divorcing for my own problems, but then I think of how fortunate I am that they didn't stay together, and that I got to live with the parent that actually cared about me. I had a buddy growing up who's parents stayed together for the children, but they both hated each other. The kids were caught in the middle, and it was an extremely tense "walking on eggshells" environment.... and no kid should have to endure that.

Interestingly, my mother and her FIRST husband (who is the father of my two half-sisters) are extremely close friends, decades after their divorce. They are genuinely friends who just talk for no reason. Whereas her and my father can't even mention each other's name to me without getting a weird look on their face.

In conclusion, all families are dysfunctional and messed up at some level.

[amj]

I was a little surprised to hear this but then again, it really doesn't surprise me. Polymory and marriage don't go hand in hand unless the woman doesn't mind the man spending time with other women and having sex with other women.

Most women can't deal with a man's sexual appetite. This is why many commited men sneak around and cheat on their woman. It's hard for men to control that urge.