Separation (Blog)

[Steve Pavlina]

This wasn't really a sudden decision, but we did come from a place of heightened clarity this time. When I wrote that I couldn't predict we'd be here only 3 weeks after the workshop, it was mainly the timing that was a surprise, not so much the end result. In truth Erin and I have been through a few other near-separation cycles over the past several years, always for the same reason of our problematic long-term compatibility outlook, but this cycle finally pushed us over the edge, partly because we both had much stronger clarity about what we each wanted.

So although this may seem like it was an impulsive decision, it's just the opposite of that. It actually took years for us to reach this point. We wouldn't make a decision like this impulsively.

[JoeRad]

Yeah....OK....

[JoeRad]

Steve,

Just.....

Take Care - JoeRad

[Steve Pavlina]

As far as marriage is concerned, I've only experienced one, so I only have that experience to go on. However, I wouldn't be too eager to get married again because it felt like marriage as a legal and social instrument often got in the way of building a truly conscious relationship.

Living consciously requires choice, and choice requires freedom. The institution of marriage restricts freedom a bit (partly legally and partly due to social convention), making free choices more difficult by introducing extra consequences.

But beyond the marriage issues, Erin and I also had compatibility problems that arose from living together. Some of those were present even before we got married (we lived together almost 4 years before we got married). So that's really a separate issue from the marriage itself. Otherwise we could have ended the marriage but continued living together.

[jeff3]

I must have psychic powers, right after reading some others posts about the polyamory thing I knew a divorce would follow, I just didn't know how long it would take.

My only advice is (as a divorced father of 2), be a dad (period)

[TheDude]

Steve, I went through this almost exact same process about a year ago. We are also newly poly and have a child together and we were a "couple" for 13 years. What we found is that the culture definition of marriage was soooo wrong for us and as much as we tried to redefine it for ourselves we still felt confined in that box. We found that becoming un-married freed us immensely from that box. But, word of warning, we very quickly found ourselves living in a "separated/divorced" box. I know you are both very conscious people, just wanted to give a heads up on that.

We really had to do some work to not let "society" define our relationship, married, divorced, separated, good friends, and to define it ourselves. The closest definition you can give it today is an "open relationship". I love that definition because it has no boundaries, it isn't a box of any sort. We are still able to maintain that intimacy and connection, but not because we're "supposed" to, but because we want to and the timing and energies are there. And when it's not, there is no guilt.

Anyway, enough about me. High fives to both of you for having the courage to be truthful and honest about your relationship and each other.

Peace,
Ryan

[Alex Wu]

Steve and Erin - my best wishes to both of you. You are both awesome people. I've got a tear in my eye, I'm just feeling a sense of sadness, but also the beginning of something new and fresh. Take the courageous step forward, and light the way

[Steve Pavlina]

There is definitely some sadness in this for both of us too, but on the flip side there's also a lot of joy and hope. These emotions come as a package deal.

I would much rather experience the sadness/joy package than the apathy/resentment/denial package.

In many ways it feels like a graduation. There's the bittersweet feeling of knowing you're moving on to something greater while also knowing that you're leaving something treasured behind you.

[Bruce Achterberg]

Like others, I can feel the impact of this within my own reality (you could call it projecting, or perhaps reflection; I'd call it Oneness ), but I think if there is anyone who can navigate this experience, it's you guys.

I hope your relationship--the thing that was there before your marriage, and always will be there--continues to bring you joy, and evolves with you as you expand into new, ever more joyful places.

God speed, Steve, and Erin.

Much love to both of you.

[Amro]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

There is definitely some sadness in this for both of us too, but on the flip side there's also a lot of joy and hope. These emotions come as a package deal.

I would much rather experience the sadness/joy package than the apathy/resentment/denial package.

In many ways it feels like a graduation. There's the bittersweet feeling of knowing you're moving on to something greater while also knowing that you're leaving something treasured behind you.

I was reminded of "On Joy and Sorrow" by Kahil Gibran:

Your joy is your sorrow unmasked.
And the selfsame well from which your laughter rises was oftentimes filled with your tears.
And how else can it be?
The deeper that sorrow carves into your being, the more joy you can contain.
Is not the cup that holds your wine the very cup that was burned in the potter's oven?
And is not the lute that soothes your spirit, the very wood that was hollowed with knives?
When you are joyous, look deep into your heart and you shall find it is only that which has given you sorrow that is giving you joy.
When you are sorrowful look again in your heart, and you shall see that in truth you are weeping for that which has been your delight.

Some of you say, "Joy is greater thar sorrow," and others say, "Nay, sorrow is the greater."
But I say unto you, they are inseparable.
Together they come, and when one sits, alone with you at your board, remember that the other is asleep upon your bed.

Verily you are suspended like scales between your sorrow and your joy.
Only when you are empty are you at standstill and balanced.
When the treasure-keeper lifts you to weigh his gold and his silver, needs must your joy or your sorrow rise or fall.

Kahlil Gibran On Joy and Sorrow

I've recently discovered the wisdom of Kahlil Gibram via multiple mentions by Steve, so glad that I have.

[bunnyman]

Here's how I first found out:

Erin Pavlina is single.

At first I thought maybe Facebook was broken.

[Radactrice]

Even the most amicable divorces carry a tinge of sadness...and they are always hard on the children. It doesn't have to be devastating to the kids, but the reality that mom and dad aren't together in the same house every day is hard on them. My divorce was as absolutely pleasant as it could be. No disagreements about anything. No arguments about money, custody, visitation, property. We remained co-parents in all aspects. We celebrated holidays together and all important events. But...it was still sad and still hard on the children. And on us. Divorce is not one of life's great joy-filled moments that you want to treasure and repeat time and again.

[Jj3rrMz]

To me. I feel that Steve just wants somebody new. And since he's been hanging out with Johnny Soporno I can see how the guy who wears devil horns rub off on you lol...Plus Steve is a man, you know he gets sexually attracted to other women especially like a city like Las Vegas aka Sin City

[Steve Pavlina]

Originally Posted by Jj3rrMz

To me. I feel that Steve just wants somebody new. And since he's been hanging out with Johnny Soporno I can see how the guy who wears devil horns rub off on you lol...Plus Steve is a man, you know he gets sexually attracted to other women especially like a city like Las Vegas aka Sin City

Yes, I'm totally hot for Johnny.

[Alex Wu]

I thought it was strange that Steve was looking into buying a 2nd car... but now it seems to make sense.

[Ganesh]

Hi Steve,
My wife and I have been avid readers of your blog and you could say that our feelings are similar to most of your regular readers. Last night both of us had slightly disturbing dreams and this morning we were discussing it and wondering what was in store for us. When we read your Separation article this morning we were wondering if there was a connection between what we dreamt and your article. The article surely shook us. But you are so ahead in the conscious growth path that i cannot even make a worthwhile comment about the path that you have taken right now. All i can say is best of luck to both of you and i like millions of others will be keenly watching your progress. To me you are the one that showed the light and there is no way i am taking my eyes off
Love
Ganesh

[Bliss Sage]

Like some others, I saw this coming too. We see it wasn't an impulsive decision. Gradually he was moving away, for at least a year evidenced in his blog posts.

I was still surprised to see Erin's new civil status on Facebook. It feels sad. Endings are. In my heart, though, I still know it can't be true what they are saying, that I can't follow my spiritual path and maintain a loving and joyful commitment to my beloved spouse. I know I can, if he's the right one.

And, on the other hand, it's strange to give up and leave when you meet with relationship problems, because everywhere we are saying that it is through that friction that we grow. There is this confusing contradiction in PD. Do you get away from friction or bad feelings with others to spare yourself the unhappiness, or do you rise to the occasion to better yourself and grow? I don't understand anymore.

[cacheborn]

Steve and Erin,
Wishing you the very best in your future endeavours. As they say, when you close one door, you open others. You guys are true examples of how personal growth should be pursued.
*Hugs*

[seeker5]

I guess the idea for the Conscious Growth House now at the older house is out of the question!

But, Steve, since you now live alone in a 6 room house, we'll just have to all come crash at your place Steve .

( I can hear Steve cringe at that idea. )

[Glass Joe]

I think I had the same reaction as most other people who posted. First a feeling of sickness in my stomach, but then a feeling of lightening up. Best way I can describe it is that it's kind of like that last scene in the movie "Castaway", where Erin and Steve are like Tom Hanks, and they are both standing at their own personal individual crossroads, seeing all the possibilities for the future.

Also, it would be cool if divorce was generally seen more in a positive light. Similar to how graduating or accepting a new job is generally seen. I mean, if you got along with your co-workers well enough, accepting a new job was cause for a celebration! They would even take you out to lunch!

Of course, leaving behind the familiar would bittersweet, and everyone would be sad about it. But still, moving on to greener pastures was generally seen more as a positive rather than a negative. And "greener pastures" is totally subjective and personal. That's why people usually aren't offended or hurt when you graduate from school or move on to a different career path. Imagine if divorce/separating was generally seen that way.

I guess the main reason why I'm commenting here, and why this blog post has so much energy for me, is because I started to think about my own parents. Personally, I wish my parents would have gotten a divorce. Sure, it would have been scary for both of them, and for me and my brother too, but I think in the long run everyone would be so much happier.

[TheAndySan]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

As far as marriage is concerned, I've only experienced one, so I only have that experience to go on. However, I wouldn't be too eager to get married again because it felt like marriage as a legal and social instrument often got in the way of building a truly conscious relationship.

Living consciously requires choice, and choice requires freedom. The institution of marriage restricts freedom a bit (partly legally and partly due to social convention), making free choices more difficult by introducing extra consequences.

But beyond the marriage issues, Erin and I also had compatibility problems that arose from living together. Some of those were present even before we got married (we lived together almost 4 years before we got married). So that's really a separate issue from the marriage itself. Otherwise we could have ended the marriage but continued living together.

YES!!

I wrote a post that talked about marriage over a year ago (warning: there is a lot of strong language in this post). I still believe that marriage is incredibly limiting for anyone's other relationships, regardless of their gender or type of relationship. Sure, it's nice to have a ceremony, but is it all really necessary?

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

There is definitely some sadness in this for both of us too, but on the flip side there's also a lot of joy and hope. These emotions come as a package deal.

I would much rather experience the sadness/joy package than the apathy/resentment/denial package.

In many ways it feels like a graduation. There's the bittersweet feeling of knowing you're moving on to something greater while also knowing that you're leaving something treasured behind you.

I felt the same way when I got kicked out of college back in 2007 for having low grades and not enough money to continue. It was certainly a rough period of my life that, thankfully, I've documented in my blog as a reminder and to motivate me to move beyond that.

I'm going to go back to college next year, starting with community college to get my GPA back up. Then, I'll apply to a 4-year college and take advantage of their study abroad program to go to college in Japan just like I always wanted to. Ahh...

Originally Posted by bunnyman

Here's how I first found out:



At first I thought maybe Facebook was broken.

That's how I found out too (I also had the same reaction). Then right under that, I saw Steve's update for this post. After reading it, I think that Steve, Erin, and the kids will be alright!

[ellie]

This post did not suprise me, it kind of seemed inevetible and I think Steve and Erin made that clear when they talked about the polymory direction. I think they thought polymory would help strengthen their relationship, but they did state that it might not.

Anna, brought up an interesting point, do conscious, highly aware people suit marriage?I suspect not. A friend of mine once said to me and it has always stuck with me, "I believe people/relationships come into your life for a purpose for that particular time, to help you grow to a certain point and then it's time to move on and learn from the next person. I do not believe we are meant to stay with the same person all our life". I believe in that way of thinking too.

As a child with parents that stayed together just for the sake of me, I think Steve and Erin have made a wise decision. Kids are smart and they would detect, if you were staying together just to try and make something work.

The one thing that concerns me is the children. Whenever, I hear Steve talking about his children he seems a little distant from them, like he doesn't connect as well with children (maybe that's the wrong assumption). When you say Erin get soul custody, it will still mean you will see the kids on weekends and so on - right?

[staceyterry]

Well... there are definitely the tears of shock, but there is also the recognition that peace demands truth. You both are incredible, wonderful people. Of course, I'm knee-jerk sad, but I have long-term faith in you both. Steve, I know you will continue to push yourself to grow and that you will work tirelessly to learn from your life lessons... all the while sharing your learning with others. Erin, you radiate love, genuine beauty, and you inspire me to be grateful for this amazing life. I hope you feel the immense warmth and love that I and so many others are sending to you sweetie.

I, like many others, can't help but think/project about my own experience over the last year in trying to understand and learn from an ended relationship with someone whom I love and respect as much as I ever did... perhaps even more now that we've been able to remain friends and support one another while working to respect the truth of the situation. There is still a platonic relationship, a different one that is both deeply rewarding and deeply challenging, but in my precious optimistic moments I try to see it as offering the maximum potential for learning. I, who pride myself on my capacity to love, have found my biggest challenge in loving someone without expectations or conventions... but I won't really know if I've succeeded until I know/feel that I am able to move on to other relationships in a more intense way. As this insightful person often reminds me, "We're both good people." That's the one part that made sense then and still does... and it certainly applies to you and Erin.

I feel so much at this moment. I've never met you Steve nor Erin, though I've talked over the phone with you both. Neither the alternative of saying, "I'm sorry" nor "congratulations" feels right. The closest statement I can muster is, "I understand," even though I'm pretty confident I don't. But rest assured I'll send my love and positive energy to you both. I hope the honesty and wonderful relationship you've built together sustains your connection in a positive way.

Thinking of you...

Stacey

[PerDev]

few days before I seen the movie where couple had break-up party. and that enjoyed it very well knowing and havign clarity that they was going in right direction.

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

This wasn't really a sudden decision, but we did come from a place of heightened clarity this time. When I wrote that I couldn't predict we'd be here only 3 weeks after the workshop, it was mainly the timing that was a surprise, not so much the end result. In truth Erin and I have been through a few other near-separation cycles over the past several years, always for the same reason of our problematic long-term compatibility outlook, but this cycle finally pushed us over the edge, partly because we both had much stronger clarity about what we each wanted.

So although this may seem like it was an impulsive decision, it's just the opposite of that. It actually took years for us to reach this point. We wouldn't make a decision like this impulsively.

[cylon]

I think that these days the concept of marriage is just fuzzy. I know that previously, it had almost a sacred aura about it... my grandparents' generation, almost no one got divorced. You just didn't do it. I'm from a divorced home, I think most of my friends growing up were from divorced homes. So, clearly marriage isn't what it used to be, most people don't hang on forever anymore. And some hang on forever even if they don't want to, because they think they have to stay true to some kind of holy-sacred-institution.

Me thinking deeply about open relationships has sort of affected how I expect my life to turn out. Do I want kids? And if I have kids, am I supposed to get married? Will my kids grow up with a stigma of not having married parents when they were born? Will I be a bad father if I don't marry this hypothetical future mother-of-my-child? Does good father=settle down, and sacrifice my own happiness and ambitions to create a "stable home" for a kid to grow up in?

I know society tells me, that one man and one woman are "supposed" to be exclusive to each other, forever.... yet it doesn't work out that way. Maybe we aren't wired for that. I know that evolutionarily-speaking, we definitely aren't wired for that.

But that's different than what society is set up to support, what society expects, that's a big influence to deal with. And even though there is so much divorce, I think most of us have some deep-down programming that we are supposed to find "the one" and that once we meet them, that's it. Stay together forever. And I have felt guilty for thinking the truth--that I am always going to be attracted to women who are in the 22-28 range, and if I got married, I would have to give that up forever. If I get old, and my wife's going to be old too, then no more girls in their 20s. And I intend to be a rich successful man so that this is always an option for me. I know to many that will sound crass or irresponsible. But it's how I feel. I don't want to give up the option to be with younger women. Through marriage, I would have to.

Probably takes a lot of courage to be polyamorous these days and not get dirty looks or remarks like "I guess some people never want to grow up and do the right thing".

Anyway, like everyone else, I saw this coming too, and I have definitely thought about what my own expectations regarding relationships "should" be in the last several months, as you can tell by this post... this is the stuff I think about and Steve making these changes has given me the idea that maybe there's freedom beyond all these restrictions and expectations I put upon myself.

Good luck with everything, Steve and Erin.

[rondon2]

As other people here have said - I too am shocked, but it is sort of expected.

Wish the best for all the parties involved - and am eager to hear Erin's side of the equation.

[Patricia]

Steve and Erin, wishing the best for the both of you. I know the future is brilliant for the both of you, no matter what.

[Felipe]

I always prefer to keep my opinions to myself unless asked when something like this happens, but since you created a blog forum for people to comment, I'll take that as an invitation for leaving my opinion. Obviously with respect.

Intuition is one of my strengths. I has always been and it has always caused many "wow" moments with friends and family. I simply can see small things other miss.

When I first met your blog I rapidly felt that this separation would soon take place, and I knew this even before your post about polyamory. It was just very clear. When that post came out, the separation pattern was not created, it was accelerated. It was already there. I also think that deep inside yourself you already knew this would day would come. You just saw all your options being: (1) cheating (2) divorce (3) developing this new polyamory lifestyle. As most "average men" choose the first one, you had the courage to choose the last one and you did that in public. Men that take such attitude, have my respect.

Unfortunately that option didn't work out for you both. There is nothing to regret, you did your best Steve.

Lesson learned. Move on.

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by cylon

Does good father=settle down, and sacrifice my own happiness and ambitions to create a "stable home" for a kid to grow up in?

just how horny are you that it would be sacrificing your happiness to create a "stable" home? Since when is "stable" a euphemism for suffering?

To me, creating a stable home where many people can be secure and comfortable is practically the meaning of life. I guess I must be lower on Maslow's pyramid or something. Or perhaps I just don't need regular sex with tight young bodies to feel good. I wonder if sex can become addictive like heroin, making people give up all the other good things in life for just one more hit?

I always tend to come back to the simple pleasures. Having toast with jam. Sitting on the porch. Playing with the dog. The classics I guess. All this poly stuff and need for sex with 22-28 year olds just seems like a bunch of hype for neurotic people.

[ellie]

Originally Posted by cylon

Does good father=settle down, and sacrifice my own happiness and ambitions to create a "stable home" for a kid to grow up in?

I don't think parents need to be together to create a stable home, as long as their is love and respect I see no problem. A home is more stable when it's honest and open. Kids are smart, they detect when things are just done for the sake of it. It sounds as though in your heart marriage is already a sacrifice, so don't do it. The strength would be in going against what society expects, and go for what feels right in your heart and teach your children the importance of being true to themselves too