Separation (Blog)

[cylon]

Seems one thing a lot of people are missing is they have been together for several years. You're holding them accountable to feel the same way they did when they made a decision years ago. People change, priorities change.

[gingembre]

I've been out of the loop with the blog for some time, and in any case would never presume to judgement when I don't know the situation, so I will refrain from any of that. In fact, separation and coparenting can work very well when the people involved are amicable. I've seen this with friends growing up, and experienced it during a separation personally.

What I wanted to speak up on is the idea that marriage and polyamory are somehow antithetical. I can think of nothing farther from the truth in my own experience. I can say without reservation that my relationship with my husband is markedly stronger than the years where we were monogamous. And this is not due to being "open" only on a physical level - we both have other partners that we are deeply emotionally involved with. In short, I HIGHLY agree with what ssandra said:

Originally Posted by ssandra

Marriage is nothing more than a signature on a piece of paper. It does not make you do or feel anything. An open marriage is not a contradiction in terms, because marriage (just as any relationship) is what you make of it.

...

My opinion on marriage... it is nothing except what you make of it.

[LoveBlug]

Originally Posted by LoveBlug

The two (marriage & polyamory) are a natural contradiction, no matter how spiritually in-touch the couple is.

gingembre, if you are referring to the statement I quoted here from a previous post, then I would have to clarify that this is just my personal opinion, and I am fallible. There are no claims of omniscience here, but I stand by it nonetheless.

I'm glad to hear polyamory has brought you and your hubby closer, and I'd be glad if, in the end, your relationship proves me wrong.

All the best.

[Steve Pavlina]

Originally Posted by LoveBlug

If you don't agree with the concept of marriage because it is in opposition to "oneness" then that's fine, take that lesson learned and move on, but I see ending a life-long commitment early as a sort of failure. Is there something wrong with failure? I thought that's part of what makes us human.

My lifelong commitment is to conscious growth. My commitment to my relationship is to Erin's growth and my own. Those commitments are still ongoing and haven't ended.

Our relationship continues although the marriage is ending. Erin and I still relate to each other. We had breakfast together this morning and talked on the phone for almost an hour before that. I don't perceive this as a failure when it's really a change of form to improve the ongoing relationship.

[gingembre]

Originally Posted by LoveBlug

gingembre, if you are referring to the statement I quoted here from a previous post, then I would have to clarify that this is just my personal opinion, and I am fallible. There are no claims of omniscience here, but I stand by it nonetheless.

I'm glad to hear polyamory has brought you and your hubby closer, and I'd be glad if, in the end, your relationship proves me wrong.

All the best.

Yours and Steve's (I forget his exact wording). And of course everyone will have different experiences; I just wanted to put out there a different perspective. Marriage is only as limiting as you allow it to be - like any other word, really. Within my own relationship, the term has many meanings and purposes, including but not limited to emotional status (best friend/soul mate), parenting together, living arrangements and financial considerations, to name but a few. Could we have all those with a legal document? Sure, but we don't find it limiting to HAVE that legal document, and in many ways (health coverage, hospital visitation rights, inheritance, again naming only a few) having that legal status is very freeing. Within polyamory, it has never been a limiting thing (being parents is much more limiting, really, since of course time is a scarce commodity). While we could be said to "check in with each other", it would be more accurate to say that we love sharing and discussing things together. However, we have from the beginning had very separate social lives, so perhaps we had it easier from the get-go as no one defines us as a "Them". And we have never put rules on our interactions with other people and relationships other than those regarding safety (condoms!) and procreating (no thank you!). Being poly has been really wonderful for us, not least of which because having someone else to rant to when you're upset at your spouse who so very-gently points out how you *just might* have your foot up your ass and your spouse a good point can be most helpful LOL (more sex on all fronts doesn't hurt either...)

Anyway, thus ends my not-so-brief alternative perspective on polyamory and marriage.

[gingembre]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

My lifelong commitment is to conscious growth. My commitment to my relationship is to Erin's growth and my own. Those commitments are still ongoing and haven't ended.

Our relationship continues although the marriage is ending. Erin and I still relate to each other. We had breakfast together this morning and talked on the phone for almost an hour before that. I don't perceive this as a failure when it's really a change of form to improve the ongoing relationship.

For what it's worth, I consider my two year separation from my husband to be the best thing we ever did (not that I was thrilled at the time). Ours was prompted largely by difficulties with living together - housekeeping issues really when you get down to it - and a good part of our happiness now is due to both of us being more aligned now with each other on that *and* having a very different living set up that gives us both clearly defined space.

Best wishes to you all through the process.

[pjhaggerty]

it's interesting how many people equate steve and erin's marriage ending to steve and enrin's relationship to ending, and then jump into long tirades about the possible consequences of something they don't even know about.

even though divorce usually = an end to the relationship, that is obviously not the case here as steve pointed out in his article.

seems to me like steve and erin are just changing the paperwork and separating, just like they would if, say, steve moved somewhere else and decided to get the marriage recognized in that place instead.

if steve was a mexican farm migrant who moved to america and was 'officially' not married in this country, would that mean he loved his wife any less or had a lesser relationship with her? would people jump on him for leaving his kids to pursue economic growth? or would people just view it as a choice?

[LoveBlug]

f

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Our relationship continues although the marriage is ending.

I am not implying that you are a failure, your and Erin's relationship is a failure, or that your relationship is over. In fact, I'm certain that none of those are the case.

I am simply stating that, if we agree that one of the defining characteristics of the marriage commitment is remaining married "till death do us part" - not as two people in a relationship that changes forms over time - the marriage will have failed when it ends, in the sense that it will have failed to live up to that commitment.

To be direct, my point is really not focused toward the marriage at all; it is focused toward a mindset I've observed throughout many self-improvement and spirituality types (myself being included in those groupings btw). I've observed a need to explain everything so that it fits into this neat little picture of how we see ourselves and the world: there are no bad things, everything is spun as positive in some way - part of some greater good or truth. The funny thing is that I agree with that premise, but I don't agree with (what I perceive to be) people using that premise to avoid the reality of a situation - which sometimes is truly more pain than pleasure, more questions than answers.

Pain and questions don't sell books, fill conferences, or add blog subscribers, but they are an inextricable part of life.

[nutella2]

Originally Posted by pjhaggerty

it's interesting how many people equate steve and erin's marriage ending to steve and enrin's relationship to ending, and then jump into long tirades about the possible consequences of something they don't even know about.

even though divorce usually = an end to the relationship, that is obviously not the case here as steve pointed out in his article.

seems to me like steve and erin are just changing the paperwork and separating, just like they would if, say, steve moved somewhere else and decided to get the marriage recognized in that place instead.

if steve was a mexican farm migrant who moved to america and was 'officially' not married in this country, would that mean he loved his wife any less or had a lesser relationship with her? would people jump on him for leaving his kids to pursue economic growth? or would people just view it as a choice?

I guess it wouldn't really matter what other people thought. Ultimately it would be up to them to do what they decide is right for them and their family (truth + courage!). Putting forward a critical perspective as an outsider is just that - from the outside. It's hopefully coming from a place of commitment to growth on a forum like this, but it's always going to be subjective and based on a different set of life experiences and on limited knowledge. Given the different set of experiences drawn on, it might be a helpful perspective, or just unfortunately totally off base. Any ideas put forward can be taken or left, ignored or engaged with. It needn't have the slightest more influence over anyone than they choose to give it. Moreover a blog like this is read all over the world. People come from different cultures with different values, as well as different life stages and experiences. Why choose, or not, to be concerned if a perspective doesn't seem valid from one's frame of perspective and one knows why that is so? If one is sure as to what one's doing, it can only help confirm that certainty, not damage it. If a comment seems malicious or is just totally not welcome, it can be deleted from the site, and if not, it will prob sink like a stone anyway, if it's based on false assumptions.

I am above all totally sure that anyone who is courageous, loving and committed to living honestly and openly will happily continue on that path, whether others put forward critical or falsely founded perspectives on the aspects of their choices that they present in a public forum, or not.

[Daffy Duck]

Originally Posted by LoveBlug

I am simply stating that, if we agree that one of the defining characteristics of the marriage commitment is remaining married "till death do us part"

If we agreed about that, then yes, I agree with you. But Steve and Erin did not take the "till death do us part" vow. Maybe they had the foresight of knowing it may not last that long. It's good to only make promises you will keep, of course.

And yeah, in regards to the rest of your post, I do think people sometimes become delusional about positive thinking. I wouldn't respect anyone who looks at a starving child and says, "This is great! I feel terrific", and I've come across some "positive" people like that.

[Steve Pavlina]

Originally Posted by LoveBlug

I am simply stating that, if we agree that one of the defining characteristics of the marriage commitment is remaining married "till death do us part" - not as two people in a relationship that changes forms over time - the marriage will have failed when it ends, in the sense that it will have failed to live up to that commitment.

Ahhhh, but I don't agree with that at all... not even close.

As I mentioned before, Erin and I explicitly excluded the phrase "till death do us part" from our wedding vows.

Please don't project traditional marriage vows onto us because we didn't make such vows. Otherwise it looks like you're trying to rewrite our personal history to fit your assumptions.

[Steve Pavlina]

Originally Posted by LoveBlug

Pain and questions don't sell books, fill conferences, or add blog subscribers, but they are an inextricable part of life.

If that's your concern, you may be pleased to know that quite the opposite is true.

While I agree that many people seek out shallow answers from anyone who seems to have an ounce of confidence, people are better served by genuine human connection (with all its inherent flaws) rather than guru worship.

It seems like you're trying to project a lot of pain onto this situation. Speaking only for myself (not for Erin), there is some sadness, sure, but please understand that much of the emotional processing regarding my separation from Erin happened over a period of years. So even though other people are just learning about it now, the roots go way back, and at present I'm honestly feeling a tremendous amount of joy, happiness, and relief for finally reaching that "light at the end of the tunnel" place.

I understand why people may need/expect me to feel bad about it, but it's too difficult for me to experience such emotions right now. I am becoming happier and happier with each passing day. Perhaps some people see that as a betrayal of reality. For me it's nothing of the sort. If I pretended to be depressed when I'm feeling excited and happy, that would be dishonest.

[LoveBlug]

I don't project pain onto what you're going through. I'm glad there is none (or it has been worked through already). I was just having difficulty accepting what I perceived as a resistance to admit failure - not that there was some pain that needed to be expressed. But...

I'm glad to see that you never made the "till death" vow in the first place. That's why I made sure to make my statement conditional based on if we could agree on the premise of an lifelong marriage commitment. I must have missed where you said that you didn't make that vow earlier in this thread. It explains a lot, and takes away the hypocrisy I saw in not admitting a failure to persevere.

Open foot, insert mouth. (I suffer from a rare form of cliche dyslexia)

[GuideMySpirit]

It seems to me like everyone is asking or stating the same thing in different words on every page. The only people that seem the most hurt/angry/confused about this are the members of this forum.

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by GuideMySpirit

It seems to me like everyone is asking or stating the same thing in different words on every page. The only people that seem the most hurt/angry/confused about this are the members of this forum.

Maybe that's because only members of this forum can post on this thread and express how they feel?

[Parthon]

To those that think Steve/Erin/the marriage have failed:

Why is an ending marriage a failed marriage? Even if there's been love and commitment for many years, and the two people have done everything they could want to do together. If the marriage has worked perfectly up until now and two people choose to end the marriage amicably, how is that a failure? Perhaps you see marriage as supposed to last forever, and the failure is just the actual reality of marriage(an agreement between two people) doesn't live up to your desired reality(marriage is forever).

If someone quits their job to go to a better job, where they can better serve themselves and all of humanity, is that a failed job? If they quit doing a hobby because it no longer interests them because they find something else more exciting and fun, is that a failed hobby? If someone quits an exercise routine because they've found one that works better, is that a failed exercise routine?

The purpose of things in life is not to last forever. That just creates stasis, and stagnancy. How can there be growth is nothing changes, nothing improves?

Who says 'failure' is so bad, it leads to change and growth.

[reuniter]

I am trying to get myself together and get my relationship with my wife back right now which is what brought me to this forum.

My circumstances are different so the comparison between my own marriage and that Mr. Pavlina cannot be easily made but I too have a little so son and my wife's decision to just up and disappear with him is not just excruciating to me but very hard on my son as well especially since I was as directly involved in the day to day business of raising him as she was, and he kept telling me over and over that he did not want to be separated from me, even though AFAIK nobody had told him that was a possibility.

Anyway Mr. Pavlina's commitment to personal growth is admirable, but IMO our commitment to our children's personal growth should trump everything else.

All 3 of my elder brothers had divorces and in every case it was empirically the wrong thing for their children, and as far as I can tell with the benefit of hindsight probably the wrong thing for the adults as well, and the ones I have discussed it with agree.

I think divorce is rarely the right option.

[Daniel Becerra]

Steve,

I really hope you're right...

You had inspired me with your writing until a couple of months ago. Losing a reader or two may not matter much to you now, but I just thought I'd say how much you had inspired me (not that I'm the only one anyway..)

Though, I do wonder if your definition of "conscious growth" does match "right growth".

Again, Steve, I really hope you're right.

May the Lord guard you.

[Steve Pavlina]

Originally Posted by Daniel Becerra

Steve,

I really hope you're right...

You had inspired me with your writing until a couple of months ago. Losing a reader or two may not matter much to you now, but I just thought I'd say how much you had inspired me (not that I'm the only one anyway..)

Though, I do wonder if your definition of "conscious growth" does match "right growth".

Again, Steve, I really hope you're right.

May the Lord guard you.

I have zero doubt this is the right decision.

[pushkin]

Steve, the news about your separation and impending divorce is deeply regrettable and upsetting to me. I have been an avid fan of your blog for several years and I am grateful for your advice and inspiration. The fact that you and your wife were able to co-exist, and seemingly happily so, on so many levels was a great part of what was so inspiring about you. I just want you to know that I respect your decisions, but I am saddened for you. I truly hope that you both can re-enter the sacred space of your union soon. And if you find that it isn't there, I hope you recreate it.

~Sharon

[Betrade]

I actually read through almost every post in tis thread over the last few days.

Wow. There are so many opinions. Anyway, I just want to say that my previous comments are based on my own experiences with not only my own separation, but lots of others involving friends and family. I don't mean to be judgmental at all.

I do agree with the last poster that I think it's saddening in a way, but it saddens me to see almost any family split for my own personal reasons; based on the pains I have seen suffered mostly by children more so than adults, but adults have their pains to deal with as well. I just have a big heart for kids and hate to see any kid suffer or go through things that they probably never believed they would ever have to go through.

But; none of us know all of the details and the whole story because it's not happening to us. We're on the outside looking in; and I guess it it's only natural to project at least some our own opinions and biases based on our own experiences. That's only natural because that's really all we have to base our opinions on.

I just hope it works out for the best for everyone involved; especially the kids; because kids just don't have the mature coping mechanisms or life experiences that adults do and it usually IS a bigger deal for them in most cases than it is for adults who have already learned some of life's more painful lessons and how to get through them. They have to sorta' grow up faster than they may otherwise would have.



It sounds like yours was a great marriage. I guess all I can say now is that I hope your divorce goes as good as your marriage did; because it sounds like it truly was a good one for quite a long time.

My one major disagreement (and this is my own opinion; not a projection) is that I believe that when we have kids, we DO have to sometimes make sacrifices regarding our own personal happiness whether we like it or not because we created these little people; and they need us. They need our love; and our time. That's really mostly what they want in a nutshell. We chose to make them; and they don't come with any guarantee that life will always be happy once they arrive.

I can recall many a sleepless night where one or more kids, or my wife (who had and still has health issues) may have been sick, running out in the middle of the night to get medicine or whatever, a few trips to the ER; another time when I was the only one in a family of 6 who didn't catch the flu and had to care for all of them for about 4-5 days.

Cleaning up vomit from 5 violently ill people isn't exactly what I call happiness, but I did what I had to do and they needed me to do it. There are MANY other examples like this that involved sacrificing my personal happiness. For instance; my youngest boy was lead poisoned and we had to get the whole family out of the house immediately in case there was a major bio hazard. We had to move everybody into another house that cost me twice as much to pay for, but I was happy that the kids were safe. It had nothing to do with any personal happiness. It was totally inconvenient and sacrifices had to be made; and they were. But, they were more than worth it.

My son got better and stayed safe from that time forward. We all really missed that house too because it was on a 25 acre farm; just my kind of place, but, I had to sacrifice my happiness in that regard for the well being of the whole family; again, something much bigger than me or my personal happiness.


But, when I look back at the bigger picture and the countless other examples of what we went through that may have seemed like "negative" experiences at the time, I have to say that those kinds of experiences were actually extremely rewarding and showed just how close we all were and where our priorities truly were at the time. The well being of everyone; especially the kids was the top priority, and being part of something bigger than "me", or my marriage itself was an awesome experience, despite any difficulties. I remember the first night at the new house when nothing was unpacked and we all camped out in the living room. That's a great memory and was a really fun time for everyone; despite all of those crazy; and even dangerous things that led us there.

I not only learned a great deal, but experienced a great deal of joy through whatever sacrifices had to sometimes be made. It is possible believe it or not. I'll always believe that real love always involves some sacrifice, at some point, on someone's part. There's almost no way around it long term.

I would do it all over again in a heart beat because the joy far outweighed any hardships. Although my wife and I grew apart some years later and split up as well, I have no true deep regrets that would cause me not to do it all over again.

So, I just hope that this search for more happiness for everyone is worth the risk you're all willing to take to find it; and I hope and pray that those kids come out okay and that they don't EVER lose any sense of security or stability.

I wish you all the best, and like I said above, I truly hope your divorce is as successful as your marriage was; because you have described it as a very loving and honest relationship. I assume you'll keep everyone posted as much as you can without violating the privacy of your kids and one another. Good Luck.

[straysweeper]

I've been a away the past two weeks. But I happened to glance about your separation post, yet unable to read it.

My first thought was, I knew. I mean I guess I could call it a vibe, but just through the 2 years I've been reading the site, I guess I have one. I could say that open marriage does seem like a contradiction in terms. Also, you mentioned the brother sister feel? I have yet to meet you in person, but I could believe it.

I would have to say this does bring up some questions with me and the nature of marriage on or with consciousness. As I've craved one most of my life, but I know where it stems from. Weather it is ego or my genuine self, or both, I am not sure.

With that, I applaud the strength and awareness to make the change.

[elainevdw]

Back when Erin was still doing email readings, I got an email reading from her, and the image she drew for me was someone trying really hard to stick a diamond onto a ring, but it didn't fit.

Seems applicable here too. I wonder if it was a message for both of us.

I'm still with the same person, but we're still not married. So if you can be married and poly, or unmarried and monogamous, what does any of that really mean, anyway?

It still must suck though. Good luck with the transition. I wouldn't have done it, but you do a lot of stuff I wouldn't do!

Bye.

[vartann]

Steve is a guy who does what he preaches

[airplus]

Steve

Would you please mind to share with us what is the visitation schedule that you have agreed with Erin?

How many and what days of the week are you planning to have the kids with you?

I am (and it seems most posters as well!! ) very interested in your answer.

Thanks!!!

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by airplus

I am (and it seems most posters as well!! ) very interested in your answer.

Why? Will that knowledge change your life in meaningful ways?

[Aybee]

Originally Posted by airplus

Steve

Would you please mind to share with us what is the visitation schedule that you have agreed with Erin?

How many and what days of the week are you planning to have the kids with you?

I am (and it seems most posters as well!! ) very interested in your answer.

Thanks!!!

Yes, of course people want to know, but why, other than pure nosiness? And what would Steve get from answering that, other than other people who don't know him picking apart their choices for visitation?

[seeker5]

Well, while this post hasn't been the biggest blog-related thread (it's only ranked #4), it has had the most views with 24K views.

[valancy]

I'm brand new here, never read before, pointed by CunningMinx's Tweet about it. This sounds very much like the divorce that I tried to craft with my ex. People couldn't understand why I let him have the house and didn't fight tooth and nail to stay in the house and get spousal support. The house was expensive to keep up, and I could not afford it on my own, but he could. Plus his best friend lived one street over. Why should he move? why should I be evil just because the courts would let me? Unfortunately, he and I are no longer on good terms because he has a grudge against me. It wreaks havoc among our friends, which makes me sad. But you and Erin sound like you have a strong relationship and many reasons to stay friends: business, kids, friends.

I was absolutely blown away by what you said about eating raw foods being an emotional amplifier. I've heard of the raw foods movement but don't know anything past "it involves eating uncooked foods." I'm definitely looking into that. I'm fascinated and intrigued by that idea. Thanks for the pointer!

Wishing you and your family the best during these trying times, Melissa

[valancy]

Originally Posted by Aybee

Yes, of course people want to know, but why, other than pure nosiness? And what would Steve get from answering that, other than other people who don't know him picking apart their choices for visitation?

Nosiness may be part of it, sure. But I think so many people are curious because visitation is an issue that many struggle with, and he's been very open about his family's arrangements so perhaps he'd be willing to share what works and doesn't work for them as far as visitation goes.

Most people don't have such an amicable divorce. Many divorced parents lose sight of the best interest of the kids and focus on their own self interest, which causes strife for everyone. If one's ex is like that, it might help to have a visitation model to follow from someone who is being sane about the relationships and the family, who is keeping the best interest of the kids at the heart of it like Steve is.

There's no one right answer, of course. Perhaps it's just reassuring to know that someone else out there IS being sane about it, if one is stuck in a custody battle.

--Melissa