A Fixed Income Is a Sucker Bet (Blog)

[BitterFlower]

Hi! I'm new here obviously...

This article is a breath of fresh air for me. I don't see it as working at a job vs. entrepreneurship, but as doing what you love and create value, no matter what the medium is. I think many people take it as a zero sum game because so many people hate their jobs and feel strapped for cash despite these jobs.

For me personally, I'm a corporate drone. I like what I do (taxes), but I dislike this particular company. I was actually going to go full out and quit, but luckily, before I did that, my company announced it's leaving the state and I'm getting laid off. Many people around me are panicking. I'm cool because the severance is just what I need . It's like they are paying me to leave.

I walked out on my first job after college too (I'm only 4 years out). I didn't like what they were doing, so I (respectfully) resigned and decided to move to another part of the state. They ended up getting me another job in that part of the state. I liked my little desk job they gave me, but I had to move because of family reasons and that's how I ended up with the job I have now.

What will I do now? Well, I always had a little side business(es) running, which always helped me through the hard times (especially since my first job only paid me once a month ). I will probably turn that up and take maybe 6 months or so off until I decide what I want to do next.

My family worries about it, and even ventures to call me "lazy". But, generally, working for someone else or myself, I do what works for me. I never worried about losing my job or housing or lifestyle. Even right now, I'm comfortable saving, eating out, buying clothes I like, etc., with a family a three and I'm the only one working (my husband got laid off last year).

reraxis. Being a tax and accounting person, profit is really a manufactured term. My company (big old corporation) has had "losses" for the past 10 years or so . Still they manage to pay salaries and do whatever they want to do (like moving their headquarters to another state )

People are still buying luxury goods in this recession, which is a sign that things aren't all that bad. Otherwise Sony, Microsoft, and Apple would all be bankrupt now. People are just cutting back, and retailers (the last man on the supply chain before customers) are getting the short end of the stick. But if you are a producer, or higher up the supply chain towards the producer, then it looks much better. But I digress because I don't want to get into supply chain theory.

Sorry for such a long first post, I had a lot on my chest.

[kniyogi]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Already addressed that issue in a 2006 article:
If Everyone Awakens Will We All Starve?

So RTFB.

I have a vague recollection of reading this article; so I guess I have RTFB I know that the other logical conclusion of your thesis is automation--which you touch upon in your article. However, even Ray Kurzweil thinks that the earliest we may achieve "singularity" is 2050. Evene after decades of AI research, we barely have robots which can clean the floor--but in turn needs to be cleaned/maintained by us before they can clean the apartment again (Roomba). We are making incremental advances in AI research, but I would be thrilled if we got anywhere close to singularity in my lifetime. Hence, this belief system that automation would get rid of "menial"/purpose-less jobs is not congruent with my present reality. If I adopt this belief system, then I would not be grateful to the people performing these "purpose-less" jobs--thereby making sure my own "purpose-filled" life proceeds smoothly--in other words a lack of empathy for folks out there enabling us to lead our "purpose-filled" lives. This leads me to question this belief system.

-KN

[spirit4711]

For jobs that don't serve anyone's purpose there are 4 options:

- automate it
- pay someone to do it for you
- do it yourself
- do without

If automation isn't (yet) possible you need to choose from the other 3. In a free market those jobs would get higher pay the less people would choose to do it (demand and supply).

There is another option: force others to do it (by conscription or slavery e.g.) but that doesn't sound very aligned with TLP .

[kniyogi]

Originally Posted by spirit4711

For jobs that don't serve anyone's purpose there are 4 options:

- automate it
- pay someone to do it for you
- do it yourself
- do without

If automation isn't (yet) possible you need to choose from the other 3. In a free market those jobs would get higher pay the less people would choose to do it (demand and supply).

There is another option: force others to do it (by conscription or slavery e.g.) but that doesn't sound very aligned with TLP .

Yes, I agree--but if I take Steve's argument to its logical conclusion--if we pay someone else to clean public restrooms-- that person is not a conscious human being and needs to "wake up and smell the purpose in his/her life", no matter how high paying that job is (assuming we do not have automation for it yet).

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by kniyogi

Yes, I agree--but if I take Steve's argument to its logical conclusion--if we pay someone else to clean public restrooms-- that person is not a conscious human being and needs to "wake up and smell the purpose in his/her life", no matter how high paying that job is (assuming we do not have automation for it yet).

So what? If people consciously choose to do jobs for me that I don't want to do myself, I don't have a problem with that.

I also don't agree with the conclusion that people performing menial jobs are less conscious than me. And it's not for me to decide what other people's purpose in life may be.

[kniyogi]

Originally Posted by spirit4711

So what? If people consciously choose to do jobs for me that I don't want to do myself, I don't have a problem with that.

I also don't agree with the conclusion that people performing menial jobs are less conscious than me. And it's not for me to decide what other people's purpose in life may be.

Yes- that is your conclusion. I have no problems with that either. I was just trying to pick holes in Steve's argument by taking his thesis to its logical conclusion (you have to read my previous statements in this thread to see where my argument is coming from). I don't want to adopt a belief system which is not consistent with my reality and leads to lack of empathy in a society

[Savage]

Originally Posted by kniyogi

I have a vague recollection of reading this article; so I guess I have RTFB I know that the other logical conclusion of your thesis is automation--which you touch upon in your article. However, even Ray Kurzweil thinks that the earliest we may achieve "singularity" is 2050. Evene after decades of AI research, we barely have robots which can clean the floor--but in turn needs to be cleaned/maintained by us before they can clean the apartment again (Roomba). We are making incremental advances in AI research, but I would be thrilled if we got anywhere close to singularity in my lifetime. Hence, this belief system that automation would get rid of "menial"/purpose-less jobs is not congruent with my present reality. If I adopt this belief system, then I would not be grateful to the people performing these "purpose-less" jobs--thereby making sure my own "purpose-filled" life proceeds smoothly--in other words a lack of empathy for folks out there enabling us to lead our "purpose-filled" lives. This leads me to question this belief system.

-KN

Long before automation there are plenty of simpler alternatives. Automation is merely one of many possible solutions.

Another solution is for people to pitch in much like is done in the maintenance of a monastery or ashram. Each person does a bit of physical labor each day in addition to pursuing their main reason for being there. Everyone takes responsibility for helping out with the upkeep. Many of these places grow their own food too.

The idea that none of the menial tasks would get done if there were no employees is just plain silly. Of course they'd get done if they're necessary. You don't need a payroll or slave labor to get things done.

[kniyogi]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Long before automation there are plenty of simpler alternatives. Automation is merely one of many possible solutions.

Another solution is for people to pitch in much like is done in the maintenance of a monastery or ashram. Each person does a bit of physical labor each day in addition to pursuing their main reason for being there. Everyone takes responsibility for helping out with the upkeep. Many of these places grow their own food too.

Fair enough--it sounds plausible. I still find it unrealistic and there is not enough evidence in the real world to convince me that such a model would work *smoothly* in a big country (instead of a small ashram). It also assumes I would be willing to clean public restrooms once a week I can see glimpses of how this belief system might work, but it would take humanity to evolve to a new level of consciousness (which I know you strive for), which is incongruent with current reality.

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by kniyogi

...
I still find it unrealistic and there is not enough evidence in the real world to convince me that such a model would work *smoothly* in a big country (instead of a small ashram).
...

Why couldn't it work?

And even if you couldn't be convinced: so what?

[kniyogi]

Originally Posted by spirit4711

Why couldn't it work?

And even if you couldn't be convinced: so what?

I said there is no evidence of such a model being successful in a big city/country--hence my skpeticism. As you said, there is nothing gained/lost from my not being convinced

[spirit4711]

If there's no evidence, that doesn't mean it may not work .

[seanner689]

Originally Posted by kniyogi

Fair enough--it sounds plausible. I still find it unrealistic and there is not enough evidence in the real world to convince me that such a model would work *smoothly* in a big country (instead of a small ashram). It also assumes I would be willing to clean public restrooms once a week I can see glimpses of how this belief system might work, but it would take humanity to evolve to a new level of consciousness (which I know you strive for), which is incongruent with current reality.

It's not assuming that you'd be willing to clean restrooms ... maybe you'd just opt out of the restroom timeshare and would only use the one at your house. Maybe you'd carry around a portable toilet/flask type device for going to the bathroom. Maybe we'd adopt outdoor bathroom-type holes in the ground for peeing that would get cleaned by the rain, women would carry a tool around so they wouldn't have to sit. maybe you'd subscribe to some other bathroom model. It's about making conscious choices. I think that a lot of people would sign up to maintain a bathroom if it meant that they didn't have to squat on the street to go to the bathroom, and people would probbably be a lot neater in public restrooms once they started having to clean them.

The reality is that if people don't want to do a job anymore, we will find a solution. It's been happening for the last 100 years. Look at construction, for example. Go to some third-world country and you'll see guys working in sandals and ball caps working on live circuits, walking across beams 100' in the air etc. Here (in Canada), the pace of construction is much slower sometimes because people are refusing to do that kind of stuff. At the site I work at right now, some work is on hold until the plant shuts down for a month in 2011 because of safety concerns. At first glance, putting a 3 day job on hold for 3 years (and thus delaying project completion) seems like a massive, huge inconvenience ... but once you set a standard for what you are willing and not willing to do, the solutions are what they are.

And the reality is that I'm sure even Steve and Erin take out the garbage and do laundry. The real question I have is this: if the whole world woke up and were suddenly conscious, what would Steve do?

[Savage]

Originally Posted by seanner689

if the whole world woke up and were suddenly conscious, what would Steve do?

I'd go have a beer.

[kniyogi]

Originally Posted by seanner689

It's not assuming that you'd be willing to clean restrooms ... maybe you'd just opt out of the restroom timeshare and would only use the one at your house. Maybe you'd carry around a portable toilet/flask type device for going to the bathroom. Maybe we'd adopt outdoor bathroom-type holes in the ground for peeing that would get cleaned by the rain, women would carry a tool around so they wouldn't have to sit. maybe you'd subscribe to some other bathroom model. It's about making conscious choices. I think that a lot of people would sign up to maintain a bathroom if it meant that they didn't have to squat on the street to go to the bathroom, and people would probbably be a lot neater in public restrooms once they started having to clean them.

Well the devil is in the details. We can theorize about a society in which people consciously take time aside to focus on "purpose-less" activities, or we can try building one successfully. 2000 years back we had such "simple" societies. But did we not build modern sewage systems and toilets so that we had more time for "higher purpose" activities ? So either we move towards more automation to give ourselves more time for "high-purpose" activities or we start going back to a societal system in which we spend time doing such things ourselves. My skepticism comes from the hand-waving involved with such theories and their inconsistence with reality.

The reality is that if people don't want to do a job anymore, we will find a solution. It's been happening for the last 100 years. Look at construction, for example. Go to some third-world country and you'll see guys working in sandals and ball caps working on live circuits, walking across beams 100' in the air etc. Here (in Canada), the pace of construction is much slower sometimes because people are refusing to do that kind of stuff. At the site I work at right now, some work is on hold until the plant shuts down for a month in 2011 because of safety concerns. At first glance, putting a 3 day job on hold for 3 years (and thus delaying project completion) seems like a massive, huge inconvenience ... but once you set a standard for what you are willing and not willing to do, the solutions are what they are.

But aren't those guys (the ones working in sandals and ball caps) salaried workers too? They are not doing out out of a higher purpose in their life--money is their motivation which is provided by someone "managing" them.

[run_fly]

Thanks steve for the article -

I am in tears right now

I am 22 and I am in dept beyond most. I can't pay for anything right now. I have bread and fresh water from a spring that I fill up for free.

I have been surviving mostly on love - I have been doing group psychic readings and workshops to college students - where I went they gave me free food and I got paid and the feeling of having a money transaction of love was very satisfying.

Because I can listen and heal with my words people are naturally attracted to me. Someone recently offered to pay for my toastmasters annual cost because we talk for 3hours after the last meeting about stuff that really mattered most to them. Another mentor offered me to help him work in his backyard in exchange to be able to go to his intuitive course that cost much more then I can afford.

But I feel alive and it feels great.

Thanks Steve