Modern-Day Nazis (Blog)

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by talekhine

I used to be conflicted on this issue. Then I started to think of it in terms of subjective reality. I think Steve's subjective reality posts are great, and if I understand them correctly, it is not true that chicks are out there dying painful deaths unless I believe it to be true. If I hold the belief that this video is fake, and that all chicks are killed humanely and painlessly, then since everything exists only in my consciousness I no longer have to feel bad.

By that token whatever bad you are experiencing you could just 'think away'. Theoretically maybe possible, in practice, why don't you do it (with things that are even worse!) just like you described?

[vishnu403]

why is killing (torturing) plants ok, whereas killing (torturing) animals is bad?

The conscious choice for a lion would to stop killing the deer in such an inhumane manner and instead eat grass, right?

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by DoingJustFine

The one thing to keep in mind is that NOT ALL FOOD INDUSTRY IS LIKE THIS.

Only the Sith deal in absolutes. ;-)

Tip of the iceberg comes to mind. And even if there's no iceberg underneath, take it for what it is: Still there.

Come on, are you sure the fruits and vegetables you buy were not treated cruelly, or the bad ones ground up into mulch and fed to other fruits and vegetables?

Never heard salad weep, apples cry, or spinach get a fight-or-flight adrenaline high, letting its dark green heart pump ever so much harder. Also, the last banana I ate didn't try to wriggle free of my grasp before I bit its head off.

at some point you have to have some level of trust in the producers to actually do what they say they are doing. Maybe the first batch of chicks on a "free range" farm were bought from a factory farm, but "free range" is sustainable, in that subsequent generations are born free from all the torture and disease. Does that mean that by buying "free range" we're supporting factory farms? IMHO, it means that by buying "free range", we're supporting the idea of RESCUING generations of chickens from factory farms. Ditto beef.

You're right, you can't deal in doubt alone. However, what you can do is make little steps at a time. Even becoming that iota more conscious about the actual fact that these things are happening is a step, small for some, huge for others.

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by vishnu403

why is killing (torturing) plants ok, whereas killing (torturing) animals is bad?

For me: Sentience - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Summary: Do the least harm that allows you to be completely happy.

Compare to Star Trek: The Federation could easily forcefully do stuff, however they choose to not do it and find other ways that aren't harmful, even to opponents that earlier were harmful to them.

The conscious choice for a lion would to stop killing the deer in such an inhumane manner and instead eat grass, right?

I'd say, it's hard for us to say - we don't know what kind of conscience lions have. We can speculate that some animals are able, similarly to humans, to live vegan-style. As mentioned in a previous post, by far the biggest impact would be convincing humans to change (and by that I'd say changing lions, though it might be possible, isn't, as an example, efficient, when the most efficient thing we can change is every human her/himself).

[talekhine]

Originally Posted by Thomas

By that token whatever bad you are experiencing you could just 'think away'. Theoretically maybe possible, in practice, why don't you do it (with things that are even worse!) just like you described?

Who says I don't? Whatever bad you are experiencing is CAUSED by your consciousness in the first place. Everything about the word is that way because you thought it.

This thread is fascinating because this is the perfect situation for people to actually utilize the power of subjective reality to relieve their own distress, and they fail to do so.

Most people reading this thread probably think that my solution is too absurd to take seriously, yet when subjective reality is advocated in other contexts or in a more general way, everyone is lining up to subscribe to its truth. I was like that too for a while. I thought I believed in subjective reality, but my actions betrayed me just like the actions of most people in this thread imply that they don't really believe in subjective reality.

There is no better test to determine if you've taken Steve's teachings to heart than this. If don't think that you could end the suffering of all chicks just by believing that no chicks suffer, then I'd suggest that you don't really understand the nature of reality and you should go back and read Steve's posts about subjective reality.

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by James81

At what point does it become *MY* responsibility that there are sick freaks out there torturing these animals?

The moment you become aware of it.

I mean, how do I know for sure the shirt I'm buying wasn't made by some 6 year old in a sweat shop? How do I know for sure that the computer I'm using wasn't made by some pedophile and is paying his paycheck?

You can't ever (in my book) be absolutely sure of anything. However, you can improve the degree by which you are sure of something (sometimes by a lot), and you can work actively towards improving that degree.

See what I'm saying? There has to be a line drawn here between personally responsbile (i.e. I am the one torturing the chicken) and just marginally responsible (i.e. I am buying a dozen eggs, one of which was placed in the carton by some dude who grinds up chickens).

Unfortunately the line is infinitesimally thin.

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by MyEyeIsOpen

Hmm... well, you've made some people mad, but have you changed any minds?

Yes.

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by DJCT

Also, why do you say "luckily"? We are part of a natural system where animals eat other living animals to survive and thrive. Even you are part of this system. To deny that you are part of this system or that you can escape it for idealistic reasons is to deny reality. Your presence on this planet will have an impact on it and an impact on everything around you despite everything you do. Does that make you feel guilty?

I resent the statement that I'm an animal or part of a system that supports cruelty..

[usagi]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Since I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything (I don't claim ownership of any particular POVs anyway), then it makes sense to continue using this approach as a way of inviting people to discover and process their reactions.

Ah, resorting to 4chan-esque logic and trolling, I see

[tim]

shrug, everything we eat relies on death

- modern harvesting kills millions of field creatures
- farming has destroyed entire ecosystems - is it any better just because your 'genocide' was all at once (and more effective?)
- farming destroys topsoil so they can plant crops - topsoil which contained millions of creatures

I eat meat which I try to get from local farmers who I know treat them humanely. The only difference between you and me is that I acknowledge the creatures which have died to feed me.

[pza]

Man, using the term Nazi...polarizing for sure. I both agree and disagree with the use of the term here. here's where you make it hard for me to defend you: The term evokes too many associations on different spectrums aside from just merciless killing. By using that word you are not only associating meat-eaters of supporting mass murder, but you're also evoking associations of fascism, totalitarianism, chauvinistic nationalism, etc etc. These words paint an unnecessarily archetypal picture of your intended audience, I think you could have used a more tasteful and more precise word to convey your meaning.

Aside from that quibble, I TOTALLY see what you mean when you say it comes from that genocide and animal torture arises from the same level of consciousness. After seeing this video, I cannot comfortably eat eggs without wondering how prone would I be to accepting torture of another human being if it was encouraged by the environment around me (Nazi support of genocide, Abu Grahib, the Stanford prison study). I don't want to go down that path.

As for the argument that plants have sentient feelings as well, I am reminded of a quote from Khalil Ghibran's "The Prophet" on this matter -

"And when you crush an apple with your teeth, say to it in your heart,
Your seeds shall live in my body, And the buds of your tomorrow shall blossom in my heart, And your fragrance shall be my breath, And together we shall rejoice through all the seasons."

Every ounce of nourishment we receive should be taken with complete gratitude for the gifts the collective consciousness has given us. A person eating meat should consume every bite with absolute gratitude and the promise that they will do enough good deeds to justify the consumption of this life. Those with vegetarian and vegan diets should never forget this. May we always promise that what we take from the Earth will be paid back to it infinitely.

[ArthurHung]

@ talekhine:

By being I mean "energy", "soul" or "consciousness", or "what you are left with after the body physically dies".

I simply feel that, without meaning to offend, that you aren't completely consciously sincere about having subjective reality as your integrated thought process, to a point where it really is natural.

I can explain it by nitpicking some of your wordings and how you say things, but when it comes right down to it, it's just a feeling.

I think you've taken the first step and know a little knowledge about it, but not enough to teach others about SR. I hope this doesn't get taken the wrong way, it's really more about sharing. I enjoy it when others pick up on something incongruent, or sounds off, that I share as well, so I can grow. That's why I'm on the forum as well.

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by talekhine

Who says I don't? Whatever bad you are experiencing is CAUSED by your consciousness in the first place. Everything about the word is that way because you thought it.

So, if you see something/someone in pain, you think they aren't in pain and therefore they aren't. That's the theory. This means, in practice, no one ever is in pain in your reality. Right? Theoretically you'll say yes to that - now what if someone says they are in pain - why do you believe they say that? Does no pain exist in your world?

[Veekay]

Originally Posted by tim

shrug, everything we eat relies on death
- modern harvesting kills millions of field creatures
- farming has destroyed entire ecosystems - is it any better just because your 'genocide' was all at once (and more effective?)
- farming destroys topsoil so they can plant crops - topsoil which contained millions of creatures

The answer lies in the question - Do you value human life more than animals, animal life more than bugs, bugs life more than plants?

[Mnemosyne]

I think everyone is missing the point.

To be honest, when I first read Steve's post I was a bit offended as my husband and I raise laying hens and dairy goats. But what Steve wrote is entirely correct. In fact, he could go further and describe the horrible and inhumane conditions that laying hens live in. But why stop with laying hens? Why not also talk about meat birds - the poor things! And cattle! Even today's corn fields.

The point is that I was offended because I eat a lot of eggs produced by our hens and drink a lot of milk produced by our goats; and yet I know they live a very humane, happy, comfortable life. We live in a suburb outside of a fairly large city so what we do is not normal, but I certainly do encourage it. I wish more people did what we do - becoming more self reliant.

While it is a sad and terrible fact that animals are treated inhumanely, it's really our fault. The problem is Factory Farming. Used to be that there were a lot of farmers with small farms that had a lot of diverse animals with a lot of diverse crops. That doesn't exist now. Now we have big corporate agribusinesses. I've been inside of a commercial poultry house, I've talked with the farmer and know how he operates and the problems he faces. 35 THOUSAND turkeys in a single house. Why is this? Because we want cheap food. Farmers are constantly pressured to produce more for less, and the only way to do that is to go bulk. And when that happens the animals will suffer. If the farmers don't do this they'll go out of business, and then what? They'll be out of a job and who else is going to supply our food? And it goes beyond just the animals; the same is true for our crops. It's terrible for the environment.

I could go on and on. I'm offended because people only seem to be familiar with just one side of the problem, they don't understand that it's a multifaceted issue, they know the whole story, and they don't realize it's ultimately OUR fault. I believe eating meat/dairy/eggs is a personal choice but if you do choose that kind of diet, know where your food comes from. Regardless of our diet we all need to be a little more responsible and accountable for our choices.

Here are some sources to check out if you're interested in the subject...

FoodRoutes - Where Does Your Food Come From?
Factory Farming, what is factory farm? - The Issues - Sustainable Table
FRONTLINE: poisoned waters: introduction | PBS
The Meatrix Films

[tim]

Originally Posted by Veekay

The answer lies in the question - Do you value human life more than animals, animal life more than bugs, bugs life more than plants?

Steve's point is that he doesn't (and we shouldn't) value them more than one another. I'm saying that that makes no sense given that there's plenty of death inolved in eating plants

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by tim

shrug, everything we eat relies on death

- modern harvesting kills millions of field creatures
- farming has destroyed entire ecosystems - is it any better just because your 'genocide' was all at once (and more effective?)
- farming destroys topsoil so they can plant crops - topsoil which contained millions of creatures

I eat meat which I try to get from local farmers who I know treat them humanely. The only difference between you and me is that I acknowledge the creatures which have died to feed me.

Well said. I agree completely.

[Thomas]

A few replies in this topic seem to very well summarized in this article: How to Be Responsible - wikiHow

[talekhine]

Originally Posted by Thomas

So, if you see something/someone in pain, you think they aren't in pain and therefore they aren't. That's the theory. This means, in practice, no one ever is in pain in your reality. Right? Theoretically you'll say yes to that - now what if someone says they are in pain - why do you believe they say that? Does no pain exist in your world?

If I were to see something/someone in pain it would be because I chose to see it -- my consciousness would have created it. In my reality people can only be in pain if my consciousness creates them being in pain.

If someone tells me they are in pain and I prefer that they not be in pain, then I will chose to believe either that they're lying, that they don't exist, or maybe that they never actually said they were in pain. Since my belief creates reality, these things will become true.

You must believe in objective reality, and disagree with Steve then?

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by talekhine

You must believe in objective reality, and disagree with Steve then?

I'm playing with lenses at the moment. :-) </Stevespeak>

[James81]

Originally Posted by Thomas

What, you eat female children and abort the male ones, grinding them to pieces?

Aborting itself isn't a conscious choice - the conscious bit applies or should apply to the decision-making process.

An abortion pretty much involves grinding the fetus into pieces with a vacuum (if I'm remembering the procedure correctly). Just because you don't eat it doesn't make it any less different.

Gotta say that I'd write anybody who believes that killing animals is wrong, but aborting fetuses is ok, off a a full blown hypocrite.

[Steve Pavlina]

Originally Posted by tim

Steve's point is that he doesn't (and we shouldn't) value them more than one another. I'm saying that that makes no sense given that there's plenty of death inolved in eating plants

If you value plants, then you can rule out eating animals since that requires killing more than 10x as many plants that the animals feed on. So if you're compassionate about plants, then that's a clear argument for going vegan... and perhaps fruitarian since eating fruit doesn't kill the plants.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

The point is that I was offended because I eat a lot of eggs produced by our hens and drink a lot of milk produced by our goats; and yet I know they live a very humane, happy, comfortable life.

I believe you when you say that you treat them well. And may I ask what you do with the baby goats?

Recently I realized that a friend of mine, who's intelligent and educated otherwise, thought that cows just produce milk all the time out of the blue. I couldn't believe my ears. For everybody's information, for a goat, or cow, or any other animal, to make milk, they need to get pregnant and have a baby first. Just like that is for human females. Usually those babies get taken away from their mother and either killed immediately or fed with artificial milk until they're big enough to end up as steaks.

So, what do you do with the baby goats? There must be quite a lot of them if you drink a lot of milk. Do you keep all babies, and the permanently growing family lives happily together? Or do they get killed?

Even if you manage not to kill them somehow, what you wrote reminds me of slave owners claiming that "their" slaves are well treated. This always makes me smile. They are legally owned by someone who has the right to kill them, cage them or sell them like objects. They get their milk stolen and their children killed. Doesn't sound like a very respectful way to treat somebody to me.

If you were perfectly congruent with yourself about this, you wouldn't be offended.

[usagi]

Originally Posted by James81

An abortion pretty much involves grinding the fetus into pieces with a vacuum (if I'm remembering the procedure correctly). Just because you don't eat it doesn't make it any less different.

Gotta say that I'd write anybody who believes that killing animals is wrong, but aborting fetuses is ok, off a a full blown hypocrite.

Nobody is taking the bait on your attempt to derail this thread into an argument about abortion. Just give it up already

[Erin Pavlina]

Do unto others. Would you trade places with the male baby chicks? If not, how can you ask them to endure something you wouldn't want inflicted upon you?

An animal that is a carnivore and must hunt for its life does not take more than it needs. It does not cage and torture an animal for months or years before eating it.

I think everyone should eat however they want, but I also think people should take responsibility and be conscious of the consequences of their choices. If you can stomach the consequences, do as you will. If you can't, think about how you might live without eggs.

Years ago, long before I went vegan, I was shown a horrific video about factory farming that had me in tears. I said to my friends who were vegetarian at the time and who dragged me to this event, "That really sucks. I don't think I could ever be vegetarian but I can at least admit that what I'm doing is wrong." It was a step in the right direction. It took me another 5 years or so before I went vegetarian, and then 9 more months to go vegan.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by usagi

Nobody is taking the bait on your attempt to derail this thread into an argument about abortion. Just give it up already

I think it's the same topic. It's about things being dead and if it's wrong to let things be dead. It probably includes if we should have the death penalty as well.

[usagi]

Originally Posted by cylon

I think it's the same topic. It's about things being dead and if it's wrong to let things be dead.

Yeah, if a fetus in a mother's stomach is the same thing as something that is already alive and locked in a cage and being tortured. And if a woman's bodily integrity isn't taken into account. Then sure, it's the same thing. I hope people start comparing abortionists to Hitler so I can just write this off as another right-wing kook site..

[Andrew Brunelle]

I don't really eat eggs, but most people who do do not want to know about this. If you try and show them, they will say something like, "Don't tell me where it comes from, I just want to enjoy my omlette." Sure, this is a cruel injustice, but will it ever stop? Sure, if everyone stopped eating eggs, maybe, but there are always more animals being killed on a mass level, even for vegan foods. Did you know that many animals get killed from agriculture? Many get killed from simple development of the human agenda. It is our entire worldview that causes such cruelty and allowing us to see all other life as inconsequential, therefore making it expendable for whatever purpose serves us at the time.

Becoming a vegan is a step in the right direction, but I feel that meat is an important part of our diet and if we didn't have such a high population and such a cruel way of getting meat, it would be okay to eat those foods. It's horrible what goes on, but it is only one branch of the whole problem. I hope we can all see that.

[James81]

Originally Posted by usagi

Nobody is taking the bait on your attempt to derail this thread into an argument about abortion. Just give it up already

I think it applies.

Because, in my experience, the vegan crowd tends to be pro-choice. And I really scratch my head at that.

[Hoamaru]

The thing that gets me is, not eating meats/eggs won't really stop these practices from occurring unless the entire world does it, so I don't see the benefit of taking that action. Instead, why not try to get these practices changed? Do the male chicks really have to be killed or animals tortured for the process of getting meat/eggs to proceed?

There are other posters here that have bought their food from places that treat their animals humanely, which is a great idea. I see just refusing to eat eggs as avoiding the problem (if this is the reason you're doing it that is), rather than getting the bad practice addressed and fixed.