Modern-Day Nazis (Blog)

[talekhine]

Originally Posted by jestlilome

if that way of thinking is correct, then murder of humans is perfectly ok as long as the murderer believes the death to be ok.... then again looking at the news every day, it appears that this way of thinking is more and more common.

True, but isn't this implied by taking a subjective reality view? From reading the comments on Steve's subjective reality posts, it seems like a lot of you claim to believe in subjective reality, but I'm the only one here advocating the obvious solution to Steve's issue.

If you don't like chicks being in pain, then stop believing that those chicks are in pain. Your beliefs determine reality, and therefore those chicks in the video never experienced pain if you believe they didn't, and you have nothing to be sad about.

I'm not sure why Steve is against eating eggs for humanitarian reasons given that he could easily just believe that there were no humanitarian reasons to not eat eggs and his problem would be solved. As someone else mentioned, maybe his posts are part of a larger plan to make us think about these things and come to the correct conclusion for ourselves.

[Pause]

First of all Thank you ... this blog post made me come out of the shadows


The killing of animals for food being compared to the mass-murder of humans for no reason whatsoever ... that doesn´t feel right.

I don´t get mad when people call me names, it makes me feel sad and uneasy when people forget or understate.

I do believe that it is essential to be direct, sometimes rude to provoke reactions out of people in order to make them think.

Maybe I´m too sensitive, but I can´t help wondering:
How do think concentration camp survivors or their relatives would feel after reading that comparison?

[Nicholls]

Woah epic forum topic. People really have come out the woodwork for this one. Especially loved the people going "Why Steve, why would you write in this tone? What is your purpose?" And that guy who thought it was right to not be called a Nazi - all good entertainment.

The video was shocking. I think that's a fair analysis, whatever diet you follow. The article was provocative, to say the least. I don't know what I'm going to do with this, but I do know I've spent the last 30 minutes considering the dilemma, and if all Steve was aiming to do was provoke conflict in us (which surely is the basis of personal growth) I'd say he's definitely succeeded. Nice one Steve

[amj]

Pretty popular post. I liked it. The video got it's point across. I don't think it will convince anyone to stop eating eggs. People know how cows and chickens are killed and that hasn't stopped people from eating burgers or chicken.

Comparing the inhumane method of killing chicks with the Nazi regime is going way overboard. Killing people is much worse than killing animals.

It hurt me to see the animals treated that way. The video by itself would have got the point across. The Nazi talk shifted everyone's attention away from the matter at hand.

[ArthurHung]

Originally Posted by talekhine

If you don't like chicks being in pain, then stop believing that those chicks are in pain.

Your beliefs determine reality, and therefore those chicks in the video never experienced pain if you believe they didn't, and you have nothing to be sad about.

It might be more accurate to replace "Your beliefs determine reality" with "Your beliefs and your being co-create reality, and with life itself". You can't actually help how you feel by way of the "concept/belief" of subjective reality alone - to do so would be a perversion of your natural instinct and intuition.

At the same time, "subjective reality" isn't really something you can practice either. If you did, it would simply be your mind generating some illusionary thing that you wouldn't feel congruent about.

Subjective reality is simply a tool one uses to describe a little parcel of the "being" one is at a "very high level" of consciousness.

In order to to increase, or rather, remember... your being, you have to "Know Yourself". Know your being.

[Steve Pavlina]

Originally Posted by Pause

How do think concentration camp survivors or their relatives would feel after reading that comparison?

Cashing in my Jewish wife card once again.

[Steve Pavlina]

When I first tweeted about this video yesterday, it had about 22K views on YouTube. A day later it's up to 381K views. It appears to be tipping.

As for the comments that this sort of thing doesn't convince anyone to go vegan, I guess the people making those comments don't know many vegans. The reality is that a lot of vegans credit videos like this to being instrumental in their decision to stop eating animal products. So most likely this video will push a lot more people into vegland. Happens all the time.

One of the reasons PETA keeps putting out these sorts of videos is that they're effective at getting people to make changes. PETA knows they work, and that's why they keep doing undercover investigations.

The people who claim this won't convince anyone to go vegan are simply trying to justify their own unwillingness to act. But ironically those are the same people who will eventually be persuaded by similar material. They may not be ready to make the shift yet, but they'll get there in time. This video simply helps plant a seed. The ones who reject it most are the future vegans. Can't tell you how many times I've seen that pattern play out year after year.

[Pause]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Cashing in my Jewish wife card once again.

You do realise that (unfortunately) most people are nowhere near as conscious and at peace with themselves as your wife is?
(Or seems to be - since I obviously don´t know Erin personally I can only work with what I read on her blog and this board and guess.)

Aside from the feelings of those more or less involved in the crimes that happened during WWII, comparing the practices of the meat industry to what happened then is understatement and fodder for those who deny the holocaust ever happened.

[Niki]

Good job Steve.

That video is insane!

I don't give a bleep about the tone of the blogpost, truth need to be told, one way or another.

I don't get all those reactions of people who seemingly are offended by this post.

What I do get is the insanity involved with how they abuse those little chickens.

[James81]

Originally Posted by ericabiz

The point of this post is your reaction to the post.

That was the point I was iterating (getting at) throughout this thread.

It was pretty obvious from the outset of this post that Steve's intention was to spur up reactions. I mean, there was very little educational about this post.

At the end of the post, I immediately began to wonder if this wasn't a "marketing" post of sorts. I've done that before on old blogs I used to write...purposely pick a sensitive subject and then go no-holds-barred with it because I *knew* it was stir up a reaction to the people reading.

After a while, I began to realize that that is really manipulative.

Instead of getting people to see his viewpoint, he instead chose to target a certain reaction. And, IMO, it's effective for stirring up debates like this, but it's a piss poor way to convince people of your point of view.

And to me, if I truly felt, on a gut level, that people eating eggs were causing the situations in the video, I'd be more focused on how to convince as many people as possible to stop eating eggs than I would be at how I could use the video to create a reaction.

[talekhine]

Originally Posted by ArthurHung

Subjective reality is simply a tool one uses to describe a little parcel of the "being" one is at a "very high level" of consciousness.

Arthur, have you read Steve's posts on subjective reality? You keep talking about "being" and I'm not sure what you're talking about. If you disagree that reality is subjective and everything that is real exists inside of your consciousness, then I don't want to get into that.

I am just saying that for those of us like me who believe in subjective reality, this is not an issue. In effect it is our own fault if these chicks are suffering: they are only suffering because we believe them to be suffering.

Someone who truly accepts subjective reality can simply think "these chicks aren't really suffering, the video is faked" and it will be true. If you can't get yourself to believe that because you think you'd just be deluding yourself, then you don't truly accept subjective reality.

[James81]

I just watched the vid. How sad.

Me then, being the skeptic that I am, had to do a little google search to double check the vid. In my search, I came up with this article:

Hatchery defends itself as chicks are ground up alive

Hy-Line made a response that seemed pretty cold to me.

In other news, the vid itself is the powerful part of this post. I think if you had just posted the vid, you'd have gotten a more positive reaction than going off on a tangent about nazism.

In any case, I'm rethinking my view on eating eggs.

[Steve Pavlina]

Originally Posted by Pause

Aside from the feelings of those more or less involved in the crimes that happened during WWII, comparing the practices of the meat industry to what happened then is understatement and fodder for those who deny the holocaust ever happened.

It seems a fair comparison unless you believe that animals are less worthy occupants of this planet than Jewish people are, and I can find no basis for adopting such a belief. Animals have been here longer than Jews for starters.

[Steve Pavlina]

Originally Posted by James81

Instead of getting people to see his viewpoint, he instead chose to target a certain reaction. And, IMO, it's effective for stirring up debates like this, but it's a piss poor way to convince people of your point of view.

Since I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything (I don't claim ownership of any particular POVs anyway), then it makes sense to continue using this approach as a way of inviting people to discover and process their reactions.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by seeker5

I can see why Steve would do it though to push some people's button to trigger a reaction and get them to grow one way or another.

I don't know if Steve did it only to push people's buttons and get them to think consciously, or because he found the comparison accurate, but I think the comparison is absolutely accurate and appropriate. I often call what we do to other animals "a mix of slavery and concentration camps", and I really think it is.

Originally Posted by James81

Now the only reason I bring that up, is to defunk this whole Nazi theory. These people aren't comparable to the Nazis. To properly compare them, they would be more akin to the Japenese who lended their SUPPORT to the nazis.

You seem to be very poorly informed about how the nazi system worked. Only very few nazis were sadistic, bloodthirsty murderers, consciously killing and torturing. Most people who participated in the murdering were very normal people.

It was organized in such a way that most people involved only did one task in the chain. Some arrested the victims. Hey, they didn't know they would get killed! Or at least they could pretend not to know. They were just following orders. Then some transported the prisoners. Hey, they didn't kill them, right? They just transported them. Others only watched them in the camps. Some only brought them to the gas chambers. The guy pressing the gas arrival button was just pressing a button, he was just doing his job. He did not even see his victims. So who really killed them? Hmmm... Well, everybody, and nobody. This way of distributing the guilt was extremely effective, because everybody could say "It wasn't me!" and thus continued doing their little part of the big job.

And you know, I really find it VERY similar to what's happening now with meat. Some people raise cattle. They love it. Some day the animals just "go away". Some people only transport them to the slaughterhouses, some just kill them, it's their job, and animals "are worth less than us", right. Just like Jews. Then some cut the corpses in pieces, others sell them... and some buy the flesh, happy to be able to pretend not to know what that IS. And everybody can claim "It wasn't me!".

If you have a problem with this comparison, or with being called a nazi, then that's a great opportunity for you to have a close look at yourself. I remember one year ago (or was it two years ago?) when Steve wrote stuff that I found sexist and PUA-influenced, I went all emotional. That was because deep down I believed some of the stuff he wrote. After consciously sorting out my beliefs, now I don't believe this anymore, and now I couldn't care less about what Steve writes about men and women.

If you call me a slimy alien frog, I will just raise my eyebrows and smile. If you call me a nazi, I will just raise my eyebrows and smile. So if it offends you, have a bold look at yourself.


PS: Just to be clear, I was being a bit sarcastic at some point. I do not believe that Jews are "worth less than us". I also don't believe that other animals are worth less than us.

[Pause]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

It seems a fair comparison to me unless you believe that animals are less worthy occupants of this planet than you are, and I can find no basis for adopting such a belief.

Well, yes, I do put human life before animal life. Actually I also put the life of my family and friends before the life of other humans.

While the concept is agitating I am ways off of embracing all of us / everyone / everything / every"nothing" as one or part of the same whole - still scratching the surface.

Thank you for your replies, I respect your (even if you do not own it ) point of view and will leave it at that.

[Fullcrum]

I like to take this argument from a scientific perspective. This perspective, I find, sheds more light on this debate than moral or spiritual perspectives. It all starts with biology.

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I LOVE VEGANS!
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In fact, I'm mostly raw vegan. Steve's consciousness-raising efforts have not gone to waste

Humans, for all intents and purposes, do not need animal protein, and, with proper planning, may be better off without it. However, humans have evolved to eat meat. We are NOT evolved to be vegetarians. Interestingly, veganism may be better for human health in the long run, but it is definitely not how we evolved, and this fact must be accounted for and coped with.

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BUT WE STILL EVOLVED EAT MEAT (but using the power of science, no longer have to):
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I can prove this by pointing out that we must ingest vitamin B-12 from food, and this includes only animal sources, including dairy, eggs, meat and organs. Spirulina and other algaes have tons of B-12, but they are mixed in with B-12 analogs that makes the amount of actual, absorbable B-12 very low.

Nevertheless, many people can survive for decades consuming little to no B-12. Their bodies, of a seemingly random genetic assortment, can hold on to and reabsorb most of their B-12, especially if they came initially from animal protein backgrounds.

This problem can be rectified: supplement with B-12, preferably sublingually. Many of the raw food advocates acknowledge this genetic heritage and supplement B-12 themselves.

Q.E.D.

Alright, with that out of the way, books like The China Study and others show health improvements the more people eat fruits and vegetables. Many plant foods (though not all) are very easy to digest, and this makes them ideal foods for human physical and mental performance.

End result? Experiment with raw vegan protocols until you find one that works. Supplement with B-12 throughout. It is not wise to ignore science .

If you are personally against supplementing and want to eat as close to "naturally human" as possible, just eat grass-fed meat and organs and local free range eggs (for these are the most nutritionally dense of animal foods and will provide a full spectrum of nutrients). Eat these, if only infrequently.

Now, humans definitely did not evolve eating raw vegan. Our growth in brain size during our evolution can be attributed to an increase in 1) Meat and 2) Cooking. Meat and cooking both increase caloric density and increase ease of digestion. Of course, a diet made entirely of cooked food is very bad for you. But back on the plains of Africa, the more calories we could get into our systems, the better it was for our growth. Carnivores in general are more intelligent than the herbivores they prey on. Humans are, despite our lack of claws and gnashing teeth (which are pathetic arguments espoused by some vegans as to our natural vegan tendencies that denature the real scientific work done in the field), the ultimate hunters.

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IS IT WRONG TO KILL AND EAT ANIMALS?
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I do not believe so. Here's why: It is natural for some animals to eat other animals. Is the tiger wrong for hunting? No, it is natural and it is a necessity for species that have evolved to be carnivores. Now animals do many things we would not in our ethically right minds ever do, like rape and eat their own young and things. But do understand that meat eating is natural.

Did you know that most herbivores actually eat a little animal product, often as a byproduct of their feeding behavior? For example, deer will snatch up the opportunity to eat birds eggs it finds lying around. Gorillas will eat the insects found on their leaves as well as eggs they happen to find. Chimpanzees actively hunt and kill other monkeys and even cannibalize members of their own species (from rival groups). They also eat insects. Interestingly, meat is the only food shared by chimpanzees. Relating this to humans, it is our meat-eating ancestry, many paleoanthropologists believe, that fostered our increased intelligence through the fostering of coordinated social behavior.

Animals do not necessarily eat only what they are designed to eat. Modern day horses are plains grazers, but give them a sugary treat (like a carrot, apple or sugar cube) and they'll snatch it up, often to the exclusion of the grass that grows so abundantly at their feet. So you may ask, why is there a disposition towards eating at least a little meat in these otherwise "vegetarian" animals?

Quite simply, meat, at least wild meat (none of that factory farmed BS), is far more calorically and nutritionally dense than plant foods. You don't have to eat as much of it to get all the nutrients you need. This does not include only muscle meat but also organs, marrow, and other parts of the animal. Also, animals that can survive on many different food sources. Evolution favors this. Animals that eat very specialized and non-abundant things tend to go extinct (consider the panda predicament).

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DESPITE ALL THIS, VEGANS EXPRESS WONDERFUL GLOBAL CONSCIOUSNESS
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The ecological arguments for veganism work well. Even though humans have adapted to eating meat, it is not in the best interest of our growing population and the sustainability of our time on this planet to all become voracious carnivores. Eating lower on the food chain, with its increased calories/acre that you can get, makes veganism an attractive choice for the globally conscious. Though we may not have evolved to be vegan, it may be the best option for those who can afford it.

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To sum up everything I've said:

The best arguments for veganism are the health arguments and the ecological arguments. Many of the ethical arguments I've seen fall flat. Nevertheless, it is in the interest of sustainability that we eat a more plant-based diet, or accept that we cannot continue allowing the world's human populations to grow as they are currently growing.

Human social and brain growth was forstered, evolutionarily speaking, from hunting and eating meat and cooking food.

With all this knowledge in mind, I consciously choose to eat meat and eggs and even a little dairy, if only infrequently and from good, local, ecologically sustainable sources, and allow the bulk of my diet to be raw vegan.

[cylon]

I don't mean to take it off topic, but this makes me think of when pro-lifers who would go to my high-school and carry signs that showed images of aborted fetuses trying to scare the kids into not having abortions (and most likely becoming christians).

So my question to you vegans is: are you pro-life as well? Are you against abortions? Do you think it's the same thing as what we're talking about here?

[TimG]

Steve, did you see this link I tweeted?

daylesford organics: Chooks go bush

It's farm near my town that produces eggs. I can't see anything wrong with how those chickens are treated. So i'd happily eat their eggs and not feel like a nazi.

I suppose it is option number 3 on your list.

I think a more constructive way to do this would be to provide resource where people can find compassionate producers, so that if people want to eat eggs, at least the animals won't suffer.

[MidasGirl]

Wow. These are some strong reactions. What the heck? I take number 3, no bacon.

I eat eggs for all the reasons Ericabiz outlined in her post #77. I feel no guilt cuz I am at peace with my choice to eat free range eggs. Whatever karma I'm creating there is conscious on my part. Maybe that's why all the angry posts were just hilarious to me. Actually I prefer to buy my eggs from a local non-commercial farmer.

[Steve Pavlina]

@Fullcrum: Before mass production, abundant B12 could be consumed simply by eating unwashed produce found in nature. No need to eat animals to get it.

I agree that humans can eat animals. We can also eat each other. Doesn't mean we evolved to be natural cannibals, but in times of scarcity we can go cannibal to stay alive if we so choose. See the movie Alive for a good example of people eating each other for survival, a habit I believe they dropped once other food sources were available.

So rest assured you don't have to eat people to get your B12.

[Steve Pavlina]

Originally Posted by Pause

Well, yes, I do put human life before animal life. Actually I also put the life of my family and friends before the life of other humans.

You are using Bonetti's Defense against me, ah?

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by oscardelben

- if you don't know such practices exists, you are not *directly* supporting them.

This sounds like an excuse to me. Take "directly" out of the sentence completely - the key word is "support".
And of course, horror videos work better than purely presentations with bullet point lists.

- if you know about that video and you care about chicks, you can select the source and if you tell all chicks are born from large industries, you've never seen a normal farm.

That assumes a lot: The source is clear of all doubt to not harm whatever you buy from them, the source on the source (e. g. label on the product) is accurate, sufficient to track for a customer and doesn't use subjective labelling for what's (e. g.) cruel to animals,...

In case someone disagrees with point one, let me say one thing: every one of us is directly or indirectly supporting millions of bad things in our daily life, basically everything from eating, to clothing and watching tv, because there will be always someone who dislike something (in this example the majority of us).

So just because we are doing million things wrong they are less wrong? By that assumption we could do billions things wrong and they'd become less wrong than the millions before. In short: To me, another excuse. Look at something for what it is (in that context, I wonder whether anyone while watching this video & disagreeing on its message actually felt/thought/said/wrote 'Yum, ham & eggs' or something similar).

I too want to touch a nerve with this question: how can you be proud of living in America when your country is doing wars, contributing to climate change etc, wasting money.. etc? Shouldn't you move to another country?

Why should I be proud of living in America at all? Frankly, why should I be proud of living in any particular place?

Not a button pushed, but a switch flicked, it seems, thanks.

[Veekay]

I believe that humans are the most evolved and conscious species and as such have a choice whether to eat meat/eggs or vegetarian. Animals do not have a choice whether to be a herbivore, a carnivore or an omnivore.

Some posts have a mention that humans are naturally carnivourous and are the best hunters that the world has seen. True - May be .. may be not .. but if the human species has evolved then its natural that we are not the same human beings that existed 10,000 years ago. So let us not act and behave in a way that our neandurthal ancestors did.

Also there have been races that have been vegan or vegetarians for the last 2000 years for examples hindus/buddishts/jains. Would you say that they are physiologically and mentally less evolved?

On the other hand - I do value human life as more precious than animal life and animal life as more precious than plant life. If that were not true I would not take/support medicines that have animal origins.

I had been on the fence for a long time ... but today I have decided that I will stop eating meat and eggs.

Another interesting question I have for Steve - Steve .. Do you wear leather shoes?

[seanner689]

Originally Posted by Pause

Maybe I´m too sensitive, but I can´t help wondering:
How do think concentration camp survivors or their relatives would feel after reading that comparison?

I guess you could say that all those meat-eating prisioners of war were just getting what they deserved for being just like the Nazis themselves ... a little bit 'o' Nazi karma

[Steve Pavlina]

Originally Posted by Veekay

Another interesting question I have for Steve - Steve .. Do you wear leather shoes?

I haven't bought leather shoes or belts in many years. I only buy vegetarian shoes and belts. However, I still have one pair of shoes and one belt that are made from leather, which I purchased before I made this decision (more than 6 years ago at least). I figured it's best to continue using them till they wear out naturally and then replace them with non-leather items. Many other vegans adopt a similar practice for transitioning away from leather, so my way of handling this isn't particularly original.

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by skinnyninja

You might say that changing one human can have a bigger impact but I bet targeting the animal world is easier. Times a million thinking and all that....

I'd venture to say that humans (by a measure we agree upon, it seems) are of the list microorganisms, worms, chicks, humans the most conscious (for a given value of conscious, let's say: able to create varying alternatives to meet their needs). Aside of that, humans seem to have the most powerful options to change. From that I conclude that it's in fact most promising (for matters of being receptive to the input and productive in the output) to address humans in this matter.

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by Trezker

I'm mostly disturbed by the typos in the post.
Steve, can't you get better spell checking? I saw something cool on google wave, but wave itself isn't public yet and I don't know where that spelling tool may be available. It was context sensitive and generally awesome.

WordPress has built-in spell checking.

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by James81

And you really don't see how aborting a fetus (the "conscious" choice) is the same exact thing as eating an egg?

What, you eat female children and abort the male ones, grinding them to pieces?

Aborting itself isn't a conscious choice - the conscious bit applies or should apply to the decision-making process.

[yoopersmith]

Fruit is the perfect food. A plant creates it, in the hopes that something that can move, will eat it.

The plant further hopes that the thing that moves, swallows the seeds and after walking away from the tree/plant.

The plant/tree would still hope that the thing that moved poops out the seed helping the plant/tree to grow in a new location...the poo even helps the seed to grow.

So, if you eat fruit and don't swallow the seeds and crap on the ground...you might be a Nazi...for shamelessly interfering with the reproductive cycle of trees and plants.