Modern-Day Nazis (Blog)

[James81]

Originally Posted by talekhine

I am usually a lurker but registered because I think I have a solution to this problem:

I used to be conflicted on this issue. Then I started to think of it in terms of subjective reality. I think Steve's subjective reality posts are great, and if I understand them correctly, it is not true that chicks are out there dying painful deaths unless I believe it to be true. If I hold the belief that this video is fake, and that all chicks are killed humanely and painlessly, then since everything exists only in my consciousness I no longer have to feel bad.

I think this is an interesting point.

Mainly because I am pretty sure that if people had to get their own hands dirty (kill the chicken themselves, harvest the eggs, whatever), that most of them would do so with hesitation and with some guilt.

But since they don't and the only thing they *consciously* see is that lovely carton of eggs sitting in the fridge at the supermarket, then they feel as if it's more humane because *they* aren't the ones getting their hands dirty.

Now the only reason I bring that up, is to defunk this whole Nazi theory. These people aren't comparable to the Nazis. To properly compare them, they would be more akin to the Japenese who lended their SUPPORT to the nazis.

[Steve Pavlina]

Originally Posted by James81

And you really don't see how aborting a fetus (the "conscious" choice) is the same exact thing as eating an egg?

Sure. Consequently, I've never had an abortion. All the babies I've made (2 so far) are still living with me. They don't eat eggs either.

This universe grants us abundant freedom. If you want to get pregnant and dump the babies, eat a dozen eggs every day, or go around shooting people for fun, then by all means go for it. My duty is simply to help you understand why you're making those choices and if you're truly congruent about it.

If you feel good about grinding up baby chicks to make your breakfast, or if you'd prefer to feast on human flesh, then enjoy your meal. But if you've got some guilt about that, perhaps you should take a deeper look at that behavior pattern and consider alternatives that may be a better fit for you.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by jestlilome

.... it is COMPLETELY MY RIGHT TO EAT MEAT and NOT be called a Nazi.

Really? That's a right?

[ruzicd]

Many political speak just for their supporters, not to convince anybody. This is article of that type.

And from vegetarian guy it's really too offensive and aggressive. Vegetarian people always accuse meat eating people for aggressive behaviour, but vegetarian are not immune also.

[DoingJustFine]

Wow Steve, talk about completely coming out of left field.

I'm sure the video touched a nerve in a lot of people, but this is not the first time something like this has been "discovered", it's just one of the more graphic videos of yet another cruel and tragic practice by the commercial food industry. Hasn't anyone ever read Fast Food Nation?

The one thing to keep in mind is that NOT ALL FOOD INDUSTRY IS LIKE THIS. You can choose not to eat eggs, and after all these years, I can choose to stop reading your blog because I fear you may have blown a head gasket.

Come on, are you sure the fruits and vegetables you buy were not treated cruelly, or the bad ones ground up into mulch and fed to other fruits and vegetables? What about their feelings? And Soy? Really? What are the chances you can find non-GMO soy products?

"Organic" is marketing. "Pesticide-free" is marketing. Maybe "free range" is marketing, but at some point you have to have some level of trust in the producers to actually do what they say they are doing. Maybe the first batch of chicks on a "free range" farm were bought from a factory farm, but "free range" is sustainable, in that subsequent generations are born free from all the torture and disease. Does that mean that by buying "free range" we're supporting factory farms? IMHO, it means that by buying "free range", we're supporting the idea of RESCUING generations of chickens from factory farms. Ditto beef.

Anyway, chill with the Nazi stuff and you'll be fine in the long run. But I think today you lost a little bit of respect from your audience.

[Angela]

Steve, why do you think you are creating all these nazis?

[Steve Pavlina]

Originally Posted by jestlilome

What happened to all the "Right to free speech" all the liberals are always talking about??? If you can get hostile about me eating meat, I can get equally as hostile about my right to eat it.

And how's that whole hostility thing working out for ya? Does it make the food taste better?

[James81]

Originally Posted by corman

So those of you claiming to have been offended by the tone of Steve's post, how do feel about the content of the post or the video? Do you find it the least bit disturbing? Are you really going to eat more eggs as a result of this, to show the world how offended you were?

What is this argument, exactly? "Your blog post was rude; therefore, I'm going to engage in immoral behavior"? I think this is a bad idea. Even if you disagree with the tone of the post (which, in my opinion, is entirely appropriate—the only sane way to discuss this horror), why not separate it from its content and think about it? If you're made uncomfortable or uneasy by the idea of baby chicks being ground alive, maybe you should devote some more thought into how your actions affect other living, conscious beings, rather that acting on totally misdirected "outrage."

Unfortunately (or fortunately? I dunno) the video wasn't loading for me here. I'll check it out later, though.

As for the content, I actually sort of agree with the stance that buying eggs in the supermarket supports these types of practices. And I also agree with his compassion towards animals.

The "makes me want to have an egg feast" is not something I actually plan on doing. But it is a sign of my intensely bullheaded nature towards hypocrisy, authority, or any other type of dogma that people try to shove down my throat.

And I can agree that that is not one of my better qualities and is something I should consciously work on.

[Steve Pavlina]

Originally Posted by Angela

Steve, why do you think you are creating all these nazis?

I find Nazis fascinating. I think a world w/o Nazi-level consciousness would be missing something. They're especially good at encouraging contrast.

That and the fact that I watched Patton on the weekend and was watching Band of Brothers this morning.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Sure. Consequently, I've never had an abortion. All the babies I've made (2 so far) are still living with me. They don't eat eggs either.

This universe grants us abundant freedom. If you want to get pregnant and dump the babies, eat a dozen eggs every day, or go around shooting people for fun, then by all means go for it. My duty is simply to help you understand why you're making those choices and if you're truly congruent about it.

If you feel good about grinding up baby chicks to make your breakfast, or if you'd prefer to feast on human flesh, then enjoy your meal. But if you've got some guilt about that, perhaps you should take a deeper look at that behavior pattern and consider alternatives that may be a better fit for you.

Ok, fair enough.

But what if the guilt doesn't exist within a person even after reading a post like this, but they still take issue with being labeled as a nazi just because they like egg mcmuffins?

I mean, is a reaction to an absurd comparison *really* a sign of "stuff in the basement" (love the Rocky reference btw )? Or is it possible to be defensive about being compared to a nazi simply for making a conscious choice to have some breakfast?

[Steve Pavlina]

Originally Posted by DoingJustFine

But I think today you lost a little bit of respect from your audience.

Who cares?

Other people's respect is a made-up concept... it doesn't actually exist.

[Gregorz]

It's funny that I originally became a vegetarian after having already subconsciously accepted all of the reasons behind it, and the 'push' simply being a post on a forum by a friend of mine who posted a video like this which made me stop being lazy and act on what I already really knew. After that I just decided not to eat meat and stopped immediately. Wasn't really hard at all since I didn't have to convince myself any further.

So point taken, Steve. Gonna have to look into that scrambled tofu. That said, I'm not entirely unconflicted about the whole thing. I was already aware of, and really have no problem with, the 'gross' part that it comes from a chicken's guts. And the current place I get my eggs is the happy egg company. Their female chickens seem to be fine, the only thing I'm questioning is whether they still kill male chicks, something I can't seem to find out.

For health reasons I'd like to quit eggs and cooked food altogether, but making the transition to raw has been hard. Building up a repertoire of regular recipes is the main thing, and finding local places that sell more varied/organic vegetables. I already have a problem of having the same things weekly, and when I attempted to go 100% raw before I ended up running out of ideas.

[corman]

Originally Posted by James81

The "makes me want to have an egg feast" is not something I actually plan on doing. But it is a sign of my intensely bullheaded nature towards hypocrisy, authority, or any other type of dogma that people try to shove down my throat.

And I can agree that that is not one of my better qualities and is something I should consciously work on.

Thanks for your reply, James. I can understand your disdain for authority or having someone else's opinion shoved down your throat, but the idea of engaging in morally questionable behavior as an act of criticism just doesn't make sense to me (I've seen it many times, not only here and certainly not only in your post).

But you've addressed that, and I appreciate your response.

[bluemoon]

Hmm, I read this and couldn't help but think of this article I read a few years back:

OSU scientist questions the moral basis of a vegan diet (3/5/02)

I'm sure other people have seen the article, it's on a fairly popular website. For the record, I'm a vegetarian who's questioning the ethical consequences of milk right now... hadn't thought about eggs really. And that video was pretty bad. But what about the animals that get killed in the way mentioned by that article while harvesting grain? Is it not as bad because it's not intentional? Because we didn't know about it?

I don't mean to turn this into a diet argument (vegan/vegetarian/paleo/whatever), although I realize that article talks a lot about Least Harm as applied to particular diets. I only bring it up because I wonder what people think the ethical ramifications of eating grain are... and at what point we either consciously or unconsciously stop thinking about this sort of thing.

[usagi]

Hitler was a vegetarian. So actually, being a vegetarian would be supporting Hitler's Nazi policies.

I'm almost convinced Steve is just trolling us all though, since "[reductio ad Hitlerum] is often used to derail arguments, as such a comparison tends to distract and to result in angry and less reasoned responses" (from the article I linked earlier) and this is actually about the Health Care debates and not chickens. If not, that would be a good cover story for your follow up post if you decide to admit this was a bad idea

[Steve Pavlina]

Originally Posted by James81

I do have to give you props for one thing, this post has definately stirred people up and like half of the online users are reading this thread right now. lol

Just doing my job of tossing baby chicks into the grinder.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

I find Nazis fascinating, so the more, the merrier. I think a world w/o Nazi-level consciousness would be missing something. They're especially good at encouraging contrast.

That's a word that I've heard to describe people who get all bossy boots on other people's eating choices, too: "Food Nazi."

I'm not sure how much positive difference it makes -- I mean, if this is an effective way to help people make more conscious choices. Probably for some it will, and some seem to want to bite off a baby chick's head just to spite you. I don't think "Food Nazis" stop going all frog-in-a-blender on people because they are slapped with that appellation.

You know what I liked best about your blog post?

why do they keep flashing “push me” in bright neon letters?

[Steve Pavlina]

Originally Posted by bluemoon

Hmm, I read this and couldn't help but think of this article I read a few years back:

OSU scientist questions the moral basis of a vegan diet (3/5/02)

I'm sure other people have seen the article, it's on a fairly popular website. For the record, I'm a vegetarian who's questioning the ethical consequences of milk right now... hadn't thought about eggs really. And that video was pretty bad. But what about the animals that get killed in the way mentioned by that article while harvesting grain? Is it not as bad because it's not intentional? Because we didn't know about it?

I don't mean to turn this into a diet argument (vegan/vegetarian/paleo/whatever), although I realize that article talks a lot about Least Harm as applied to particular diets. I only bring it up because I wonder what people think the ethical ramifications of eating grain are... and at what point we either consciously or unconsciously stop thinking about this sort of thing.

No need to eat grains. Grains aren't ideal foods for humans anyway. Fruit is a much better choice, both health-wise and sustainability-wise.

[James81]

Originally Posted by usagi

I'm almost convinced Steve is just trolling us all though,

LOL

You know, I think I'm going to try on the belief that this whole site is just one giant troll on the human race. See how things look through that lense of my own personal reality.

[jaydeschizo]

Ok, now I know that this happens. I still like eggs, and I am far too lazy to go about finding 'good' eggs, so I will continue to support this system and hope that someone finds a way to make eggs even cheaper without damaging it's nutrient value or taste.

[Steve Pavlina]

Originally Posted by jaydeschizo

Ok, now I know that this happens. I still like eggs, and I am far too lazy to go about finding 'good' eggs, so I will continue to support this system and hope that someone finds a way to make eggs even cheaper without damaging it's nutrient value or taste.

That's a pretty apt description of Nazi-level consciousness. Go along with the current system and hope it gets better someday.

[dmaterialized]

Steve, I really think this went far, far out of hand.
First off, the video itself is extraordinarily sensationalist. Not that this is a bad thing because it is, after all, very disturbing, but reusing the same shots and trying to garner sympathy in some very silly ways ("some of the chicks get washed out") just seemed to dilute the real message, which is...

... uh, what? That at this particular factory, baby chicks are being ground up? WHY are baby chicks being ground up? It's not like there's any meat on 'em. Was there an explanation given for this behavior? Not as if that justifies it, but I felt like the video was deliberately trying to obscure things.

If you eat eggs, you EAT BABY CHICKENS THAT HAVEN'T HATCHED YET. What is the problem? They are JUST EGGS. They have never been born, are not yet truly alive, and are in essence a cluster of protein. Is "spilling your seed" murder, then? Frankly I'm disappointed that your analytical mind has issue with this line of thinking. I'm totally against LIVING CREATURES being ground up for no readily apparent reason, but eggs are not the same thing.

My main issue is with the tone of your writing. This is not only condescending, it's arrogant and elitist to a fault. It assumes that only you have "the answer", which is to stop eating eggs (which will, in fact, have virtually no effect on the ground-up chicken crowd, since they are ostensibly used for meat). The answer is to shut places like this down. Your boycotting of food products is not nearly as effective a strategy for ending animal suffering; it is merely a way to make your own ego feel as though it's "doing something".

Your comparison to the Nazis is utterly infantile and does nothing to advance your point except to piss people off and make them not want to deal with your overly-negative tone. I'm sorry to use such strong language, especially with someone I respect very deeply, but I think you let this whole thing provoke you into being spiteful and extremely UNconscious. This is a glorified knee-jerk reaction.

I won't STOP reading your blog, obviously, but I've lost quite a bit of respect for your work.

[AlwaysLearning]

And now for a special message to all the egg-lovers out there: you're still loved and accepted.

[James81]

Originally Posted by AlwaysLearning

And now for a special message to all the egg-lovers out there: you're still loved and accepted.

[Steve Pavlina]

Originally Posted by dmaterialized

I won't STOP reading your blog, obviously, but I've lost quite a bit of respect for your work.

So what?

[colecarroll]

While obviously animals do eat other animals, and despite the aggressive article, there is no disputing the fact that when other animals kill each other they do not shoot them up with tons of drugs, put them in a cage seperate from their family and other animals for their ENTIRE natural life, and then either throw them in a grinder or throw them in boiling water while they are still ALIVE.

This is truly sick behavior. If I tortured and murdered your dog in the same fashion you would probably have me thrown in jail like michael vick. But when it comes to any other animal its ok. That is true hipocrisy, and if you believe in god or some ultimate power you know that he/it, put all animals on earth to be respected as his/its creation.

To treat animals this way is like pissing on gods creation, so that you can stuff your little belly and feel content for another 30 minutes. That is shameful and sickening. I think if you see these videos and do not make some sort of change you should probably do some deep reflection.

I myself was a meat eater, lots of meat. I can honestly say that once I started watching these videos of the horrendous torturing of animals I became a vegetarian. At times it seems impossible (of course it is not impossible) to remove yourself completely from the machine that factory farming has become. I cannot look at the videos and pictures of the animals and not feel deeply sad for how their short lives are lead.

I think saying "Steve I don't like your article and just for that I am going to support this system more by eating meat tonight" is extremely childish.

Steve compared it to the nazi's , which is true in some ways because the nazi's systmatically and brutally killed and tortured millions of animals, the average consumer is doing the same thing they are just not themselves holding the gun or turning up the dial on the oven. It is also not true in some ways because I don't think people are as aware of what is going on.

If you are aware though, and you still don't care about what happens to animals at ALL. Then I don't know what to say except that there have been lots of people with no regard for animals and lots of them became serial killers.

If you do care for animals, and you are educated (by watching the clip) on what is going on in factory farms, and you are still turning your back on it then you are simply being a coward.

The least you can do is not become part of the problem.

[James81]

Originally Posted by colecarroll

If you do care for animals, and you are educated (by watching the clip) on what is going on in factory farms, and you are still turning your back on it then you are simply being a coward.

At what point does it become *MY* responsibility that there are sick freaks out there torturing these animals?

I mean, how do I know for sure the shirt I'm buying wasn't made by some 6 year old in a sweat shop? How do I know for sure that the computer I'm using wasn't made by some pedophile and is paying his paycheck?

See what I'm saying? There has to be a line drawn here between personally responsbile (i.e. I am the one torturing the chicken) and just marginally responsible (i.e. I am buying a dozen eggs, one of which was placed in the carton by some dude who grinds up chickens).

Does marginal responsibility (i.e. my money goes into some communal fund somewhere that traces back to torture of chickens) actually = personal responsibility?

I would assert that it doesn't.

[MyEyeIsOpen]

Hmm... well, you've made some people mad, but have you changed any minds?

I mean, with every post you make the choice use some of your built up credibility capital. If the post is good, the investment pays off because it helps a bunch of people and you actually end up with more capital. Obviously you knew this one would hit your capital harder than other posts might... do you think the payoff will be worth it?

I mean, you'll undoubtedly push some fence sitters over the edge (at least for a while)... but you didn't help us vegans, and you didn't convince any meat eaters. Not only that, you drove some lower-consciousness people away who might have been ready for another of your messages, but not this one yet.

I'm not sure this post hit its intended mark... but hey, I know you're trying hard. And you've done more than most people to help -- can't win them all I guess.

[seeker5]

Yeah, I'm surprised at the use of the Nazi term. That is so overdone right now by so many people. I do wish Steve wouldn't do that on his blog since it gives some people the crazy and misguided notion that maybe we allow name-calling on the forum (which we still don't). We mods then have to go and squelch that misguided notion.

I can see why Steve would do it though to push some people's button to trigger a reaction and get them to grow one way or another. Not to mention, only 1% of the blog visitors ever go on the forum, and less than that even register and post.

To me the Steve's text did nothing, but seeing those chicken being crunched like that bought tears to my eyes. I've being aiming toward being a Vegan for purely health reasons, but this adds something else.

[oscardelben]

Originally Posted by colecarroll

While obviously animals do eat other animals, and despite the aggressive article, there is no disputing the fact that when other animals kill each other they do not shoot them up with tons of drugs, put them in a cage seperate from their family and other animals for their ENTIRE natural life, and then either throw them in a grinder or throw them in boiling water while they are still ALIVE.

Have you ever seen spiders? Or the terror in the eyes of a mice who knows it's about to be killed by a snake?