Understanding Human Relationships (Blog)

[Steve Pavlina]

Use this thread to discuss the following entry from Steve Pavlina's blog:

Understanding Human Relationships

[Angela]

Interesting timing. I've been noticing that if I'm complaining or offering unsolicited advice, whether silently or out loud, it is 100% about me, and 0% about the other person. The other person is simply a generous (or unwitting) mirror for me. What a GREAT tool for personal growth -- just listen to my own complaints and the advice I give others! Every time, no exceptions. It's NEVER their problem.

But it's not easy to remember to do this! Good thing I've trained my friends to point it out to me. Argghhh.

[The Probabilist]

What about emphatic abilities?
What about telepathic abilities?

Are these the skills that actually cause the other person to start behaving differently as you start to focus on the given issue that previously bothered you? Isn't empathy actually a way to get an objective standpoint on another person's views and emotions over an issue?

And what about equanimity?

Isn't it best to just let things be the way they are and not get yourself bothered by anything? I certainly can't list a single thing that bothers me about other people. In turn, it seems that no other person I know is bothered by my behaviour in turn. It's not indifference - it's making yourself incapable of feeling negative emotions over people doing things differently than you are. Or are you saying that this in fact is what one should strive for and in turn the other person actually starts to do things your way and feeling great about it?

[Erin Pavlina]

Okay I have to jump in and say that I did indeed create a folder called "Stuff I don't need." But that's only because, "Stuff I probably won't need but am too afraid to throw out in case I'm wrong" was too long to fit on the label.

And I do still have that file.

[Tsuyu]

I think this article is great, except the example you gave about George Bush:

For example, if you dislike George Bush because you think he’s a poor leader, could this be because your own leadership skills are sub par? Then go to work on your own leadership skills, or work on becoming more accepting of your current skill level, and notice how George Bush suddenly seems to be making dramatic improvements in this area.

Your theory wouldn't work in that example, because you would need to have some kind of relationship with George Bush in order for it to work. If you were, say, just a regular US citizen who thinks Bush's leadership skills are sub par, and you decided to work on your own leadership skills, I don't see how that would affect him.

On the other hand, if you thought your brother lacked good leadership skills and decided to work on your own, he would probably be influenced in a good way.

[The Animus]

The tidiness illustration is interesting, but isn't very clear in that
you say-

I grew up in a house that was always — and I do mean always — neat and tidy. Even as a child, I took pride in keeping my room clean and well organized. So it probably comes as no surprise that I often push Erin to be neater and more organized.

In this case the solution is for me to work on improving my own standards for neatness and order.

so were you or were you not organized before?

If organization and tidiness was your value, and you had practiced it fully, then Erin's untidiness may still have irked you, simply because you expected her to live up to that same value. Not necessarily because a part of you wanted to become more organized.

The effect that occurs seems like you simply became more organized, as though your value 'purity' became cleaner, and Erin took note and changed her habits, as though by osmosis, perhaps because her habits took a more striking contrast to your increased tidiness.


--

Essentially, others may irritate us either because they are different than us (we expect them to live by our values), and in some cases, because they represent some part of us that we want to change. It is not always necessarily the latter (as your article implies).

[eternomi]

Originally Posted by The Animus

so were you or were you not organized before?

That's exactly my point.

If you were already tidy, then how can you get tidier? You are already being tidy!

Perhaps you weren't tidy (or not tidy enough) to begin with. You just thought you were... Or something you are aspiring to achieve requires you to be more tidy somehow. Or perhaps you were tidy in the 'physical' sense (making your bed, keeping your desk organized), but you had to 'tidy up' other aspects of your life? Non-physical aspects such as goals, thinking, etc..

This "watching your reflection in the pond" business is kinda weird to say the least.

[Steve Pavlina]

Re: tidiness... The source of the conflict was internal because I wasn't satisfied with my own level of order. My life had become more complicated at the time, and my old systems were proving that they were no longer adequate. Hence my internal feeling was that my standards weren't high enough, which is exactly the feeling that was manifesting through my relationships with others.

We have relationships with everyone, even George Bush, because all relationships are in our thoughts. If a person is in your thoughts, you have a relationship with that person.

If you don't believe you can change someone's behavior remotely just by working on the part of yourself that person represents to you, try it and see what happens.

[The Probabilist]

He might be saying that if you stop being bothered about things that bother you, the things that bothered you don't bother you anymore.

Dr. Wayne Dyer: "When you change the way you look at things - the things you look at change."

But reading through it, the emphasis is still on actually making a change happen. So yeah, I'm a bit lost on that one too as you pointed out.

[eastcoastgirl]

Yeah, I'm a little lost, too. Great idea, though. I can see where it might apply some of the time. I can see where things I find annoying in other people are sometimes things I don’t like in myself. But I just don't see how it works in other situations. I have a friend who is habitually late; I’m habitually on time. How is she a reflection of me? And my being on time has not influenced her to be on time. She's still just as late as ever.

I do agree completely, though, with what Steve said about interacting more with others as a way to learn about yourself. I also agree that improving your internal relationships improves your relationships with others.

[Adam]

Well, I just tried a test of this...

Just before reading the thread, I was wondering why a business owner who I'm sub-contracting with was being so flaky...

After reading it, I decided to stop being flaky about the project, I gave him a call, an viola, I have all of the information for that project, plus I was contacted by another company for a very large project that they were being flaky about as well not more than half an hour later.

Gosh, I guess I've been really flaky lately...

[apj]

Originally Posted by Steve

According to the subjective model, when you forgive, accept, and love all parts of yourself, you will forgive, accept, and love all other human beings as they are.

Hi guys,

Long time reader of Steve's site here. Normally I find Steve's article resonate very strongly but i'm a little stuck on this one.

The essence of my problem is that Steve seems to be saying: unconditional love = unconditional forgiveness & acceptance. Unconditional acceptance is a very difficult concept to swallow. It implies a complete lack of desire to instigate change in the world around us and in our relationships with the people in it.

I can think of plenty of examples where unconditional acceptance would have been wrong course of action.

WW2. What if Britain has unconditionally accepted Germany's annoying habit of invading its neighbours? Or what if Nelson Mandella has unconditionally accepted the treatment of Blacks in South Africa under the Apartheid regime? Both times people acted on an unacceptable situation for what I would call the greater good (this may or may not be an appropriate term for Erin's filing habits hehe). Is it possible to have unconditional love for someone and yet adamantly refuse to accept them as they as? I think so. Why does having love for someone mean you let them treat you like a doormat? Not everybody is so enlightened as to be able to follow a superior example of how to act without some coercion, or even to recognise superior behaviour when it presents itself. In the article by Steve he uses his tidyness is an example. It is implied this is a superior behavioural condition to being messy. Why? This is a viewpoint that may or may not be shared by everybody and depends largely on their personal frame of reference, upbringing, cultural standards etc. This same concept can be applied to all manner of behaviour.

My $0.02

[Adam]

Originally Posted by apj

The essence of my problem is that Steve seems to be saying: unconditional love = unconditional forgiveness & acceptance. Unconditional acceptance is a very difficult concept to swallow. It implies a complete lack of desire to instigate change in the world around us and in our relationships with the people in it.

I can think of plenty of examples where unconditional acceptance would have been wrong course of action.

That is a *very* interesting, difficult, and thought provoking question.

Now, see, I'm one of those weirdos who believe that perfect peace is attainable, and it is attainable through unconditional love. I also believe that it is possible for all societies to have this perfect peace at the same time.

One of the ways to achieve peace is to have unconditional acceptance... The problem that you point out, though, is that if everybody except for one practiced unconditional acceptance, that one will be able to commit atrocities. You're probably right too.

I don't see Steve preaching unconditional acceptance, though. Rather, what I'm seeing him say is that if there is something about yourself that bothers you, then change it to be something that you can forgive, love, and accept. Using Steve's example, being disorganized bothered him, so he changed his habits so that he could accept himself; not as a disorganized person, but as an organized person.

During WWII, the Allies were very bothered by the advance of the Axis powers, so they changed their environment. Nelson Mandella was bothered by the racial discrimination in South Africa, so he changed his environment.

If you don't like something, change it to something that you can feel acceptance towards. Since a lot of times, (all of the time, in my experience) our relationships echo our own emotional states, we can use our relationships to find out what we can change in order to bring acceptance for ourselves and others.

Does that help to clear things up?

[happymomof2]

Have any of you read Byron Katie's book Loving What Is? Steve's message sounds very similar to Katie's, specifically the process she calls "The Turnaround."

If you're interested, check out her website http://www.thework.com/. I find myself automatically employing her 4-step process (followed most importantly by the "turnaround'), whenever I am bothered by relationship issues.

I have a couple of other thoughts on this topic that are floating around in my head, but I can't seem to formalize them at this hour (10pm after an evening of night skiing with my two young kids!), so I'll repost when the thoughts are more clear.

[Athena]

I think this harmonizing your relationships idea makes more sense as simply- the things we don't like in others are projections of our own judgements, (not necessarily projections of our own qualities)
And to know that you can change your judgements if you want.


Harmony in relationships, like music, works when two people are alike, in values and qualities, and also when they are complementary. Either matching or complementing tones.

Disharmony or dissonance occurs when people are different, and those values don't match up, neither alike nor complementary.

Therefore, in relationships, the qualities we don't like in other people are usually because they don't match or complement ours.

Sometimes this signals elements that we need to work on ourselves (eg becoming less judgemental and more accepting) but I think that those elements are rarely the things that we are judging in others, imo.

[Bruce Achterberg]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

Okay I have to jump in and say that I did indeed create a folder called "Stuff I don't need." But that's only because, "Stuff I probably won't need but am too afraid to throw out in case I'm wrong" was too long to fit on the label.

And I do still have that file.

To quote Steve from his article, Purging:

There are a few rules that have served me well whenever I go through a purge cycle:

1. When in doubt, throw it out.

That said, I can definitely relate, Erin. I tend to keep a lot of things (especially on my computer) that most people would say I should get rid of, but usually end up being useful (or very frustrating if I did take their advice and get rid of it). Generally I find that so long as I'm addressing purging when fairly conscious (as opposed to trying to do it when I’m in some sort of zombie-like stupor ), if I feel resistance to getting rid of something it's usually because that resistance is trying to tell me something important.

Sometimes it's your subconscious (which tends to have access to many more mental resources then your limited conscious mind) telling you: "Stop! you still need that". Sometimes it fear telling you: "Oop, don't go getting rid of that... don't do anything too crazy now... perhaps you should go and sit in that nice, safe corner and stay away from the scary world out there".

I find its best to acknowledge the resistance and accept it so that you can figure out what it's trying to tell you and what you can learn from it... kind of like what Steve spoke about in the article this thread is discussing (Understanding Human Relationships). On that note, there is also this to consider from the same article I quoted above:

[...]
2. Ask, “What would be the worst-case outcome if I threw this item out by mistake?” If the answer is little or nothing, throw it out.
3. Could someone else benefit from this item more than I would?

And finally, some further wisdom from the article that some of you may find insightful (particularly if you're trying to make an identity shift, as Steve describes in his Podcast #18 - Faster Goal Achievement):

I often ask myself, “Does this item still have energy for me?” when considering whether or not to purge something. Although the phrasing may be a little new agey for some people, I just think of it as a short-hand method for consulting my intuition. If I don’t sense that a part of me is invested in keeping the item, I feel confident that purging it is the right choice.

Woah... that's a lot of quotes.

[pdamoc]

People trying to understand relationships might also take a look at Socionics.
Intertype Relations can explain a lot of the interactions we have.
However it is worth pointing out that if the change on the inside truly happens a phenomena called "dualization" could appear...
Dualization is the transformation of a deficient relationship into a dual relationship (the best that could be). It takes a lot of will but... it can be done.

[JJH]

@apj & Adam: I believe the practice of unconditional acceptance refers to what IS, the NOW. You can disagree with a course, and take action to change it, but you can not change what already IS.

[AnthonyM83]

Having just read Steve's entry, I'm trying to apply the concept to my own life. People usually don't bother me much, unless they interfere with my day to day operations. Otherwise, I say to each his own, even those that do 'dumb' things. I find it hard to accept others when their actions directly affect me.

At work, I work side by side with one coworkers for months at a time. I just started with a new guy who is more experienced than me by a couple months and having worked a busier area longer.

He is extremely critical and wants everything done a certain "best" way. At first, I was receptive, b/c he has knowledge/experience, but now he's correcting me on things that don't have right/wrong ways...things that are personal preferences.

Right now he's one of the few people in my life who bother me (and I wish it weren't so, because he's a nice guy, otherwise). Does this mean I'm to critical myself? Would me becoming more or less critical make it less annoying when he corrects one of my tasks (which I know is being done correctly). I'm usually veryt receptive to feedback, but his intensity makes that hard to continue.

Not sure how I could apply Steve's concept here..

[JimOfferman]

Interesting piece, as always. While not everything in the articles resonates with me, I do find that whenever I'm not getting what I want from a relationship, there is something in me that needs to change to make it work.

Most recently, I was desperately trying to grow a deeper friendship with one of my band members, but none of my efforts were helping. The harder I tried, the further I felt removed from my goal. Only when I finally gave up in frustration and just let things be, did the friendship I desired bloom. I had long since earned his unconditional friendship, but just couldn't see it... doh!

[Glass Joe]

Hi everyone. I didn’t intend for this to be so long. But hopefully this post will be helpful to those who manage to get through it all. I was doing that thought exercise Steve suggested in the article and it kind of went off on a tangent. I hope reading this is helpful to those who also suffer from "analysis paralysis".

Originally Posted by Angela

Interesting timing. I've been noticing that if I'm complaining or offering unsolicited advice, whether silently or out loud, it is 100% about me, and 0% about the other person. The other person is simply a generous (or unwitting) mirror for me. What a GREAT tool for personal growth -- just listen to my own complaints and the advice I give others! Every time, no exceptions. It's NEVER their problem.

I'm the same way. Even though, rationally, I know that this isn’t true and that it cannot possibly be true, and even though I rarely complain about it to anyone, I still have the underlying feeling that 90% of business/career success "out there" is simply a result of dumb luck or unethical behavior. It's a knee-jerk reaction I have whenever I come across any positive business news. Now I’m not saying that I rip up the newspaper in a fit of rage or anything. It’s really just a tightening up in my stomach and I catch myself subtly shaking my head from side to side.

So... because I believe I live in a Dilbert-esque world, full of mostly incompetence and corruption, that is what I experience. I bring it all onto myself.

Because my personal philosophy (at least business-wise) has been "Don't Step in the Leadership", all I see around me regarding business/career decisions is where NOT to place my next step.

So I do nothing.

Or more precisely:

- I work in contract jobs at companies solely for the socializing opportunities.
- I work in contract jobs mainly for the learning experience of working in a different industry.
- I dabble in developing various passive internet income streams but never actually complete or launch anything.
- I read books and listen to audio programs on business / economics / finance (mostly for fun, because it's enjoyable to me) but I still don't apply most of what I've learned directly to my life.

Originally Posted by Adam

Well, I just tried a test of this...

Just before reading the thread, I was wondering why a business owner who I'm sub-contracting with was being so flaky...

After reading it, I decided to stop being flaky about the project, I gave him a call, an viola, I have all of the information for that project, plus I was contacted by another company for a very large project that they were being flaky about as well not more than half an hour later.

Gosh, I guess I've been really flaky lately...

I think my problem isn't being flaky but it's somewhat similar to yours. I think it's just me trying to "fly by the seat of my pants" most of the time, with as minimal preparation as possible. Just like how some people pride themselves on how much they can memorize without writing anything down, I think I pride myself on how little I need to prepare beforehand. I still prepare to a degree and take pride in my work. But I rarely over-prepare, which is probably a better way to go than my tendency to under-prepare and just wing it.

I guess, subconsciously, I think that a lack of preparation somehow equals agility and flexibility, and that “going with the flow” somehow equals an automatic “flow” state. That last one is kind of true though, now that I think about it. But I already know that the flow-state only can last for so long and "going with the flo