Steve's take on unschooling

[Lupe]

What is Steve's opinion on unschooling? Unschooling

[st33med]

Personal opinion: As a teenager who likes school, 'unschooling' sounds bad. The fact that people would remove children from schools to learn by themselves sounds great, but what about math or biology or chemistry? Calculus you cannot learn from nature without reconstructing several centuries of work. Some people prefer to learn about how the world works, and the best way to do that is via school.

Now, it's not that not going to school makes you stupid, however, I think it deprives a kid from learning complex topics that cannot be grasped or learned by one self.

But of course, that's just me. You asked the Man, so I'll step aside .

[Matt Willard]

Originally Posted by st33med

Personal opinion: As a teenager who likes school, 'unschooling' sounds bad. The fact that people would remove children from schools to learn by themselves sounds great, but what about math or biology or chemistry? Calculus you cannot learn from nature without reconstructing several centuries of work. Some people prefer to learn about how the world works, and the best way to do that is via school.

Now, it's not that not going to school makes you stupid, however, I think it deprives a kid from learning complex topics that cannot be grasped or learned by one self.

But of course, that's just me. You asked the Man, so I'll step aside .

You can expose your children to those topics just fine. The point of unschooling is to introduce them to things, and then get the hell out of their way, not bore the crap out of them and make them learn stuff they have no interest in.

[aelle]

"Unschooling" doesn't mean you don't have access to books, or even classes. It just means that you do so outside the classical school system, if and when you choose to.

Steve is surprisingly silent on everything that concerns the decisions around having children and raising them. I understand, though, that no matter how willing people are to put themselves, their learning patterns and their mistakes out in public, it's a lot less cool to force it on your children.

[carenkh]

@ St33med - There was a good discussion a little while ago about compulsory education; there are some really good links in there. Especially check out the ones with John Taylor Gatto and John Holt. Unschooling isn't what you think it is; here's a post with several links about it, if you'd like to learn more:

Compulsory Public Schooling is Dumbing Down our Kids

I have read where Erin says she's living her passion and purpose, so chooses not to homeschool/unschool with their kids.

[Erin Pavlina]

Before we had kids we thought homeschooling would be the best and most natural way to teach our children. And we talked about all kinds of different ways to do that, from splitting up the teaching between the two of us to connecting with a few other homeschoolers and each parent taking a day to teach all the kids so no one parent bore the burden of teaching every day.

But we love our work and felt we had the most value to give by pursuing our work full time. On many levels we still think homeschooling offers significant advantages to a child, but we are not parents for whom homeschooling would work out too well, so we send the kids to school and supplement with real world teachings at home.

we want to encourage our children to pursue their passions, not ours, so we watch to see what they love to do and try to get them involved in those things at a higher level. It's sort of fun to see how they are developing. Emily is very physical. Cartwheels, flips, monkey bars, these are all things I was unable to do as a child so it's really neat for me to watch her do well in these areas. She's also tremendously gifted in art (my mom is a professional artist so I wonder if she got some of that talent from her). I think she'll be a good athlete but so far she isn't interested in pursuing anything formally or on a team. So far, Kyle's forte seems to be Halo.

[Parthon]

Ha! Perhaps Kyle will grow up to be a games programmer like his "old man".

Compulsory schooling doesn't make kids stupid, it's just slowly become completely ineffective at helping them learn. All kids want to learn in the beginning but, like all humans, when something becomes 'too hard' they back off, resist it and start hating it or fearing it. Because of our lack of respect for teachers, our disdain for providing proper funding and materials for education, turning schools into a glorified day care and leaving our children in from of the TV, it's no wonder it's 'hard' for them, and they aren't learning.

Learning starts in the home, and kids will learn all the time, from their parents, their friends, and their siblings. You don't even need to teach kids how to learn, it's built in, we just have to teach them how to use their own power to overcome obstacles and challenges. We have to have compassion and forgiveness for children, and help them not turn failures into blocks. If we instilled a passion for overcoming any obstacle and taught our kids that they can literally do *ANYTHING*, we would have less learning problems. It's the idea that kids are limited in some way, any way, that prevents them from being all they can be, and prevents them from learning.

Of course, I'm neither a parent or an educator, so feel free to ignore me.

[Cyllya]

Unschooling/homeschooling unfortunately requires a lot of time spent with the kid. I think unschooling is absolutely best for every child but I can see why it's not best for every parent (or any parent!).

When people say unschooling, they usually mean a certain type of homeschooling, but IMO, if you give your kid the choice of education and your kid decides to go to public school, that's still unschooling, although the name becomes somewhat metaphorical. You can imagine that school would be much different if the kid wants to be there. Unfortunately, that comes with the downsides of school, such as a strict schedule/location, in loco parentis, etc., so I think it's useful to talk about homeschooling and unschooling independently.

One frequent criticism of unschooling is, "But what if the child doesn't CHOOSE to learn [insert very important subject]?" but that's actually not a concern because one of the following will occur:
a) The child learns it by accident in the course of living life. This frequently happens with basic math.
b) The child goes through his entire life without being too inconvinienced by the lack of that knowledge, meaning it wasn't all that important to learn.
c) The child needs the knowledge for something and will choose to learn it then. This may be at a later age then schooled kids would learn it, but there's nothing wrong with that.

To what extent that concern is true, I think it's actually more problematic in high school. For example, cooking is a very useful skill, but the class for that is usually an elective. So what if the kid doesn't CHOOSE to learn how to cook?! He'll only realize how important it is after graduating and will be eating canned soup and take-out for the rest of his life!

On many levels we still think homeschooling offers significant advantages to a child, but we are not parents for whom homeschooling would work out too well, so we send the kids to school and supplement with real world teachings at home.

Do you let your kids handle school the way Steve handled college? Most of these tips seem like they'd be just as valuable for kid-level school, but I think most parents would be outraged at their kid doing some of them, especially #5 and the idea that you should avoid [the need for] studying outside of class.

When I got a 95% on my spelling tests, my step-dad gave me a speech about how I should never sell myself short.

The fact that people would remove children from schools to learn by themselves sounds great, but what about math or biology or chemistry? Calculus you cannot learn from nature without reconstructing several centuries of work.

Math/calculus, biology, and chemistry all exist in the real world. If they didn't, there'd be no need to learn them. You'd probably get a book (or website or even a teacher of some kind) to help with most of those, but there's nothing wrong with that.

[st33med]

Well, you guys changed my mind. If I ever have kids (THE LEGACY MUST CONTINUE!), then it would be something I would consider.

Of course, have them learn independently would require work, and my future interests may intersect with their's, as Erin said.

One last question: What about college?

[Cyllya]

Here's some information about how unschooled kids go to college:

Frequently Asked Questions About Unschooling High School and College - Your Homeschooling Advisors - Homeschool.com - Your Virtual Homeschool

Though you can usually bet unschooling parents aren't going to instill that "if you don't go to and graduate from college, you are a loser" mentality.

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by Matt Willard

The point of unschooling is to introduce them to things, and
then
get the hell out of their way, not bore the crap out of them and make them learn stuff they have no interest in.

Yes, thank God!, as well as UNschooling serves to
help children stay connected with the reality that ALL of life = education, school, learning... plus in UNschooling the parent/teacher has a best opportunities to expose & influence said students (outside the most destructive), with the BEST of a well-rounded life: Spiritually, Emotionally & Physically .

No public schools anywhere, have the resources, financial, human & otherwise to offer these successes...

[aelle]

Originally Posted by Cyllya

Unschooling/homeschooling unfortunately requires a lot of time spent with the kid. I think unschooling is absolutely best for every child but I can see why it's not best for every parent (or any parent!).

Not necessarily actually, especially if you practice a very "hands off" kind of parenting (which would make sense if you believe children learn best on their own).
I think the mama of the Little Travellers is a working unschooling single mom... Not sure how she manages that exactly, but her kids seem very bright and fullfilled.

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by st33med

'unschooling' sounds bad.
The fact that people would remove children from schools to learn by themselves sounds great,
but what about math or biology or chemistry? Calculus you cannot learn from nature.

yeah,
what about math? - our daughter was still stifled, in the 'dumb-me-down' public school system, where at age 7 in their Gifted (read 'busy-work') program, she was forced to +/- 2-digit numbers, when obviously she was ready for decimals, fractions, %, and beyond. In fact, after their stupidity, we saved her, she fast & easy advanced thru algebra such that she tutored public hi-schoolers.
Yup, an 11 yr.young kid, teaching 15-19 yr olds. "Algebra, beg thru adv." -- Then, she finished Calculus at 15, yes being UNschooled, and
oh yeah,
what about biology? This same child/student was invited to enter at age 10, the annual local hi-school's Science Fair, where she won just as fast & easy the grand-champion prize, (yes being UNschooled ) with her "Micro-biology" display, correctly spelling & pronouncing & explaining... bio-chemical processes, which public-schooled kids (7 yrs. her senior) remained clueless about.

And it's not 'nature' either. Understand parental Nurture... starts, yes even in the womb, unschooled student's successes...

Originally Posted by st33med

Now, it's not that not going to school makes you stupid
...
But of course, that's just me.

With all due respect, please get the facts straight, re "unschoolers" - And then, after you have guided additionally several 100 UNschoolers, to similar successes, including graduating, with honors yes, from college yes, at age 17 no less, yes! - you'll be better prepared to share relevant input...
.

[carenkh]

Originally Posted by aelle

Not necessarily actually, especially if you practice a very "hands off" kind of parenting (which would make sense if you believe children learn best on their own).
I think the mama of the Little Travellers is a working unschooling single mom... Not sure how she manages that exactly, but her kids seem very bright and fullfilled.

All of the unschoolers I know are very, very "hands on", deeply connected with their kids. Kids learning best "on their own" doesn't mean alone. It means I don't dictate HOW or WHEN or WHAT my kids learn, but I am there to offer my experience if it seems like it would be helpful. I am there to support them in their passions and interests - and in order to do that, I have to SEE what their passions and interests are! A naturally raised kid isn't going to go up to their parents and say, "I'd like to learn about xyz now", the parents needs to be aware of their budding interest in xyz by being with them, enjoying spending time with them.

[st33med]

@sk8joyful, I think you are twisting my words around a bit. I never said they were stupid nor did I think that basic arithmetic can be learned by one's self. I also refuted my claim a few posts back about unschooling.

yes! - you'll be better prepared to share relevant input...

Anyone's input is relevant. I put my opinion in and I learned. No shame in that.

[Cyllya]

Originally Posted by aelle

Not necessarily actually, especially if you practice a very "hands off" kind of parenting (which would make sense if you believe children learn best on their own).
I think the mama of the Little Travellers is a working unschooling single mom... Not sure how she manages that exactly, but her kids seem very bright and fullfilled.

I think when you see "hands off" in a sentence about unschooling, it's usually either from someone criticizing unschoolers' relatively "permissive" approach to education and often parenting/discipline OR an unschooler explaining the philosophy and insisting that it's NOT "hands off." It's kind of a vague metaphorical phrase though.

But regardless of the level of interaction involved in the family's education practices, it's unsafe and often illegal to leave small children without adult supervision for too long. If you're sending them to school, it doubles as a crappy but still handy daycare.

If you need to keep track of your unschooled kid's academic progress for some reason (e.g. paranoid spouse, state government), I think you'd have to spend a lot of time with them to know what they know, since you aren't giving them any tests.

Though I don't believe it's impossible for single working parents (or two working parents) to unschool their kids.

[aelle]

Originally Posted by Cyllya

I think when you see "hands off" in a sentence about unschooling, it's usually either from someone criticizing unschoolers' relatively "permissive" approach to education and often parenting/discipline OR an unschooler explaining the philosophy and insisting that it's NOT "hands off." It's kind of a vague metaphorical phrase though.

But regardless of the level of interaction involved in the family's education practices, it's unsafe and often illegal to leave small children without adult supervision for too long. If you're sending them to school, it doubles as a crappy but still handy daycare.

MY bad. I guess I don't get involved in fights about unschooling often enough .
If anything, I find the free range kid movement (FreeRangeKids) even cooler than the unschooling one. I know that it's an attitude that's almost unheard of in America, but it has worked fine and still works in other parts of the world. I find it really important for children to learn autonomy, to interact with peers of their own age without adult involvement, to do things on their own, without parental help or close supervision. Of course these activities should be age appropriate, but our notion of "age appropriate" has drastically changed, for no rational reason. It was normal for me at age 3 to go buy the family bread while my mother stayed at a café or another shop in the same street - would anyone let their kid do that today? Why not?

The phrase "hands-off" was actually used by the mother in the first blog I linked, I think, to describe just that: that she often lets her kids interact with the world and with others without her involvement. When I posted it I had in mind the situation of a few contributors who hesitate between unschooling their children and being self employed... Of course it's a different choice alltogether if both parents work away from home 9-5, but I wanted to point out that self umployement and home/unschooling are far from incompatible.

[carenkh]

Originally Posted by aelle

I find it really important for children to learn autonomy, to interact with peers of their own age without adult involvement, to do things on their own, without parental help or close supervision.

I think it depends on the kid. I have one child who let me know very clearly that he needed me a lot, from very early on. To force autonomy on him when he didn't want that would have been very damaging. I wonder if my youngest would have been more likely to be "free range" if I had made different choices with him? He was always more willing to do things with his friends, etc., without me. He likes having me around - they both do!, because I don't control or coerce them - but he'd more than likely be the one to vibe with being free range - as long as he knew I was available when he wanted.

Again, it comes down to being connected with your child and honoring who they are. You can be connected and not hover. It's about connecting with your kids and supporting them in remaining whole and centered, whatever that might look like for them.

It sounds like you'd really resonate with Sudbury Valley School. Are you familiar with them? There are Sudbury-type schools in lots of places.

[PVince81]

I have read a very interesting book about a free school called Summerhill where the children are free to learn and/or play when they want. It's an interesting experiment.
The results that were observed were that during the childhood the children tend to only want to play. Only once they played enough, usually in the teen age, they will start to get bored and want to learn something, and choose to go to class by themselves (class is optional there). When they choose to go to class it is often because they become interested in their future and find the motivation by themselves to learn hard enough, and that compensates the time they have "lost" playing during their childhood.

The good point with that school is that the kids can grow at their own rate without being put under pressure. And somehow it seems to work well, because those people become happy and inspired.

Have a look here: A. S. Neill's Summerhill School

[Lawliet]

I've never been a fan of the education system. I believe the way it works, it does really dumb children down and program them into certain, limited ways of thinking. There's only one answer to every question, school is the only place any intellectual development can take place, etc.

I dropped out of secondary school at 15 (due to boredom and difficulty with other students and teachers) and despite not being incredibly educated in certain areas (that I don't care to improve upon), I'm more intelligent in that my mind is more capable of free-thought. I don't know answers, but I'm able to find them where other people I know would just stick to the beaten path. What happens when those brainwashed by the school system come across a problem they've not been taught to solve? And I'd say it's no coincidence that most successful people in life and business are those who didn't take school seriously.

Education isn't intelligence, but it does compliment it. The key is giving a person that education without programming free throught out of them. I personally believe that's better being done around age 13 (with obviously introducing them to concepts early in life).

[carenkh]

Originally Posted by PVince81

The results that were observed were that during the childhood the children tend to only want to play. Only once they played enough, usually in the teen age, they will start to get bored and want to learn something, and choose to go to class by themselves.

But what you're saying here is that learning only happens in a classroom, which is far from true! Learning happens during play - you can't keep learning from happening! The way schools would have you believe learning happens - all at once, from some outside source - is not how it happens at all! I've seen it in my own boys - they pick up bits & pieces of things, here and there, without even knowing they're picking it up. If something sparks them, they'll find out more about it - consciously or subconsciously; they might just pay more attention when this thing, whatever it is, is around them. They wouldn't be able to tell you that's what they were learning about, it happens so organically. Living is learning.

I am 43, and my kids and other unschooling families have taught me to play again! Play is what it's about - the teens we know still play, still live their lives with joy. Some find joy in going to classes, others find it in other ways. I don't think there's any such thing as "playing enough".

[aelle]

Originally Posted by carenkh

I think it depends on the kid. I have one child who let me know very clearly that he needed me a lot, from very early on. To force autonomy on him when he didn't want that would have been very damaging. I wonder if my youngest would have been more likely to be "free range" if I had made different choices with him? He was always more willing to do things with his friends, etc., without me. He likes having me around - they both do!, because I don't control or coerce them - but he'd more than likely be the one to vibe with being free range - as long as he knew I was available when he wanted.

Again, it comes down to being connected with your child and honoring who they are. You can be connected and not hover. It's about connecting with your kids and supporting them in remaining whole and centered, whatever that might look like for them.

You're right, I understand that it is really important to take into consideration the child's particular wishes and needs. I'l glad I can learn from caring mothers like you, it's still theoretical in my head but when you lay it down it makes perfect sense.

Originally Posted by carenkh

It sounds like you'd really resonate with Sudbury Valley School. Are you familiar with them? There are Sudbury-type schools in lots of places.

You bet! I first read A.S. Neil's essays on Summerhill when I was 16 and have kept looking into the democratic/free school models.

[Pace]

Kyeli and I unschool our son. It's pretty challenging being entrepreneurs and unschoolers at the same time, and I don't think it would have worked when he was much younger, but now that he's 11 he's self-sufficient enough that it's working out pretty well.

Just wanted to show that there are people out there who are both unschoolers and entrepreneurs. (:

[dwixi]

Everyone I know that have been home schooled arent that smart or good soicialy.
but thats just who I know.

[MasterD]

How do homeschooled kids get in touch with other kids?

[Daffy Duck]

MasterD, look at the end of this post for your answer. A high schooler I know recently interviewed me because he was doing a report on homeschooling. Ironically, I think he was trying to write an argument against it. I probably wasn't very helpful in that regard.

Here are some of the questions and answers. Questions are in bold.

Do you think (overall) that homeschooling/unschooling is an efficient way for a child to learn?

Yes, it can be very efficient because the student has 1-to-1 interaction with the teacher and there's no wasted time like there is in a regular school. No walking to other classes and so on.

Is it hard to get into college or find a job? How do you get a diploma?

No, it's similar to a regular high school diploma. In fact, homeschoolers are usually allowed to play for their local school sports team if they want to try out. At least, that's how it is in Florida. You can even go to the public school graduation, though usually homeschoolers have their own graduation.

Would you say that most parents are properly prepared to teach their children?

No. Most parents don't know some subjects well, such as advanced math. Also, teaching is a skill like any other. Just because you're a good parent doesn't mean you're a good teacher. However, there are many resources out there which will help parents be a good teacher for their homeschooled children.

Since (home-schooled) kids would just be learning from their parents, do you think their will be skewed/biased to what their parents think?

This is possible and even likely, yes. But this is true for public school kids as well. For example, a child from a strict Christian family will likely believe in Creation, even though Evolution is usually taught in public school.

The book "The Civic Perils of Homeschooling" by Robert Reich addresses the issue that kids miss out on many social things that kids miss out on by not being in school. Things like respect (for teachers and whatnot) that you wouldn't necessarily pick up on in a home setting. Of course, though, it all depends on the child.

That's interesting. Based on what I've seen, I'd argue that homeschooled kids are often more respectful than most. Why? Well, because many of them missed out on a lot of social interaction, they've become downright scared of others and scared of breaking "the rules." Even if they're not scared, they're often taught to be respectful. When you go to public school, you learn you can bend and even break rules at times. Hardass teachers don't always gain respect -- they're just made fun of outside of class.

Here’s a quote from the book, “Schooling is one of the few remaining social institutions--or civic intermediaries-in which people from all walks of life have a common interest and in which children might come to learn such common values as decency, civility, and respect.”

Not to say homeschoolers aren't respectful...they're just missing out on something that gives important life skills; and they're in the minority to miss out on it.

Homeschoolers from strict Christian families will have issues with any religion other than their own, no doubt. It's worth noting that many homeschoolers meet in groups throughout the week and work together. In this way, they create a "school" of homeschoolers and gain social interaction that way.

When I was unschooled, I met the kids in my neighborhood by riding my bike. I went to the local church youth group, which had around 30-40 teens. I met people in things like little league or bowling leagues.

When I was around 14 or 15, I realized that I was shy and needed to become socially comfortable, so I put myself out there and forced myself to meet people. It was awkward at first, but I learned how to talk, how to dress, grew in confidence and most importantly, since I was used to being on my own, I was able to adapt the changes that I wanted to adapt and ignore the ones I didn’t. I wasn’t heavily influenced by my peers like many younger people are. I wasn’t concerned with “fitting in.”

Most people are surprised when they learn I never went to middle or high school. I’ve heard things like, “But you’re so outgoing!” and “But you’re not weird!”

It probably helped that I did go to public school until third grade. I had a “normal” foundation to build on.

I never met up with any homeschool groups myself because I wasn’t being homeschooled. I was just left to my own to do whatever I wanted since the age of nine. Besides that, I don’t think I would have liked their company much. I have met some kids from homeschool groups, and I can see why they have the stereotype of being weird… But than again, when I look at the kids from public high school and how much they partake in drugs and drinking, I think they are pretty weird too.