Law of Attraction Article doesn't make sense

[James81]

Originally Posted by Angela

I agree that that belief is useful -- if you are a person who wants to be full of pain and failure.

I'm not afraid of pain and failure. Pain and failure is only detrimental when it becomes chronic and you can't move past it. I embrace the times when I am "full of pain and failure" because I know that one the back of those emotions is a time of joy and success. I know that I can't enjoy the joyful and successful moments of life without the pain and failure.

People who avoid those emotions do not experience the broad spectrum human emotion. Joy is not all there is. Nor success. Sometimes you are simply going to fail. Sometimes you are simply going to be full of pain and there is nothing you can do about it. You can fight it, but fighting it usually just makes it worse because you are adding tension to the experience.

The times I've been able to move from a state of chronic and continual pain and failure are the mometns when I have released control of the outcome, embraced the pain and failure, allowed myself to feel it and experience it, and then, finally, let it go.

The times I've tried to avoid being full of pain and failure, I discovered that by trying to avoid it I was merely prolonging it.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by James81

I'm not afraid of pain and failure. Pain and failure is only detrimental when it becomes chronic and you can't move past it. I embrace the times when I am "full of pain and failure" because I know that one the back of those emotions is a time of joy and success. I know that I can't enjoy the joyful and successful moments of life without the pain and failure.

People who avoid those emotions do not experience the broad spectrum human emotion. Joy is not all there is. Nor success. Sometimes you are simply going to fail. Sometimes you are simply going to be full of pain and there is nothing you can do about it. You can fight it, but fighting it usually just makes it worse because you are adding tension to the experience.

The times I've been able to move from a state of chronic and continual pain and failure are the mometns when I have released control of the outcome, embraced the pain and failure, allowed myself to feel it and experience it, and then, finally, let it go.

The times I've tried to avoid being full of pain and failure, I discovered that by trying to avoid it I was merely prolonging it.

You're right. I agree with you.

Avoiding your emotions, by repressing them, is useless. In karmic terms, if you do not face the experience that you have attracted, then the experience may pass, but it will recur again. Not necessarily in the same form, but with the same vibrational essence.

For example, you may know some woman who keeps attracting abusive boyfriends. One painful relationship after another, she keeps getting the same kind of experience. It won't be the same man, but it will be the same kind of experience.

There's no point for her, you see, to repress the negative emotions from these experiences. At best, this provides temporary relief. What's critical is that she faces these negative emotions directly, and begins the process of transmuting them.

This is the critical point which many people don't understand. You shouldn't repress your negative emotions; you should transmute them. Eg if you feel angry about something, pretending that you're NOT angry about it is not the solution. What you need to do is stare squarely at your anger; acknowledge its existence; understand what triggered it off; break the causes down into their components' and transform your anger into more positive emotional states.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

You're right. I agree with you.

Avoiding your emotions, by repressing them, is useless. In karmic terms, if you do not face the experience that you have attracted, then the experience may pass, but it will recur again. Not necessarily in the same form, but with the same vibrational essence.

For example, you may know some woman who keeps attracting abusive boyfriends. One painful relationship after another, she keeps getting the same kind of experience. It won't be the same man, but it will be the same kind of experience.

There's no point for her, you see, to repress the negative emotions from these experiences. At best, this provides temporary relief. What's critical is that she faces these negative emotions directly, and begins the process of transmuting them.

This is the critical point which many people don't understand. You shouldn't repress your negative emotions; you should transmute them. Eg if you feel angry about something, pretending that you're NOT angry about it is not the solution. What you need to do is stare squarely at your anger; acknowledge its existence; understand what triggered it off; break the causes down into their components' and transform your anger into more positive emotional states.

Fantastic post.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by James81

I'm not afraid of pain and failure. Pain and failure is only detrimental when it becomes chronic and you can't move past it. I embrace the times when I am "full of pain and failure" because I know that one the back of those emotions is a time of joy and success. I know that I can't enjoy the joyful and successful moments of life without the pain and failure.

People who avoid those emotions do not experience the broad spectrum human emotion. Joy is not all there is. Nor success. Sometimes you are simply going to fail. Sometimes you are simply going to be full of pain and there is nothing you can do about it. You can fight it, but fighting it usually just makes it worse because you are adding tension to the experience.

The times I've been able to move from a state of chronic and continual pain and failure are the mometns when I have released control of the outcome, embraced the pain and failure, allowed myself to feel it and experience it, and then, finally, let it go.

The times I've tried to avoid being full of pain and failure, I discovered that by trying to avoid it I was merely prolonging it.

Yes, I get that you believe all that, and that it works for you. Believing that pain and failure are part of your life and you can do nothing about it is what you've found works well in your life, because it allows you to accept it and move past it. That's fine -- and it's what I meant in my response to you. You're good with pain and failure, and that's fine. Some people are good with blame and shame, too, and that's fine as well. It's what gives you your life.

And it's not my experience. There is no failure in my experience (or blame or shame) -- it's illusion. There's nothing to avoid there, because there's no there there. It's all moving towards: expanding and being supple. Pain is a bit different, though -- pain is a heavenly messenger, and sticks around only long enough for me to get the message. Sometimes I resist the message, and the pain will keep knocking on my thick skull, and that's a good thing. I agree with you that resisting pain tends to keep it with you, like a Chinese finger-trap.

And in my human game, joy IS all there is. It's all joy, although sometimes I must shift my perspective to expand fully into the infinite joy that is who I am.

And like I mentioned, you're free to have a life full of pain and failure, if you choose. I support you in your choice.

[bluedragon]

How could we benefit from this thread?
It seems to me that almost nobody is acknowledging the others' point of view. Almost nobody is addressing the other's point of view, but rather what he thinks the other implied...

Subjective Reality cannot be contradicted, cause in case it is true, any attempt to prove it wrong would succeed. What's the logic in believing that it could potentially be proved wrong?

[Angela]

Really, bluedragon? I see people acknowledging and addressing each other's viewpoints all over the place! Maybe you just thing we're implying otherwise. That's the subjective nature of reality for ya!

When you ask, what's the benefit of this thread, I think it's interesting to note that the OP begins not with a question: "Where is the sense in this Law of Attraction article?" or "What sense do you make of the LoA, that I'm not finding in this article?" But rather: "Law of Attraction article doesn't make sense." It's kind of a throwing down of a gauntlet, rather than an attempt at understanding. That's fine, and it's an interesting starting point for how these conversations tend to go -- and why they go the way they go. It's kind of like saying, in essence, "Everything you LoA folks believe and express is wrong, so how about that? Huh, huh?! How's about it, buddy?" and then everyone else gets to see how they respond, and which bar patron is their avatar. To me, your avatar looks like the kindly sheriff who says, "Come on, now, fellas, let's all calm down." (watch out, sometimes the sheriff gets hit by a shot of whiskey or a flying virtual chair! ). And sooner or later, the bartender (a moderator) comes along and tells everybody to just take it outside.

I love subjective reality, and the games we play inside it!

[James81]

Originally Posted by Angela

Yes, I get that you believe all that, and that it works for you. Believing that pain and failure are part of your life and you can do nothing about it is what you've found works well in your life, because it allows you to accept it and move past it. That's fine -- and it's what I meant in my response to you. You're good with pain and failure, and that's fine. Some people are good with blame and shame, too, and that's fine as well. It's what gives you your life.

And it's not my experience. There is no failure in my experience (or blame or shame) -- it's illusion. There's nothing to avoid there, because there's no there there. It's all moving towards: expanding and being supple. Pain is a bit different, though -- pain is a heavenly messenger, and sticks around only long enough for me to get the message. Sometimes I resist the message, and the pain will keep knocking on my thick skull, and that's a good thing. I agree with you that resisting pain tends to keep it with you, like a Chinese finger-trap.

And in my human game, joy IS all there is. It's all joy, although sometimes I must shift my perspective to expand fully into the infinite joy that is who I am.

And like I mentioned, you're free to have a life full of pain and failure, if you choose. I support you in your choice.

I've read this like 5 times trying to understand what you are trying to say, and I'm still stumped.

Personally, I think that telling yourself that Joy is all there is is just a way to lie to yourself. Because joy is not all there is. There is also pain and suffering (varying degrees of which). Anybody who has a mortal body experiences pain. Trying to convince yourself that pain is joy is like trying to convince yourself that hats are bananas.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by James81

I've read this like 5 times trying to understand what you are trying to say, and I'm still stumped.

Personally, I think that telling yourself that Joy is all there is is just a way to lie to yourself. Because joy is not all there is. There is also pain and suffering (varying degrees of which). Anybody who has a mortal body experiences pain. Trying to convince yourself that pain is joy is like trying to convince yourself that hats are bananas.

Yes, again, I understand that you believe all that. And I don't begrudge you your belief, or think you are "wrong." In fact, I agree with you that pain and suffering exist. Suffering is in other people's lives, maybe the same people who have blame, shame, and problems, not mine. You are absolutely welcome to it, though -- I will not come between you and your suffering!

Along with suffering, you also have your belief that pain can't be joy, and hats can't be bananas (you obviously don't hang out with my crowd ). I just don't have that one. But I don't begrudge you that belief -- even though you seem to begrudge me NOT having it! (Hopefully that gives you no pain or suffering.)

Who said anything about trying to convince anyone of anything? Not my bag. There's no convincing necessary!

[Holistic Star]

Angela you always floor me with your turn of phrase. I love you

[Angela]

Where'd you get that photo of my daddy?

[Holistic Star]

There are 183,000 options for that phrase 'banana hats' in google image search.

Who said bananas aren't hats!

[st33med]

All I was given when I was born was the option to pick the red or blue pill. I almost picked both of them.

But, then, that would not be polarizing >.>

[James81]

Originally Posted by Angela

Yes, again, I understand that you believe all that. And I don't begrudge you your belief, or think you are "wrong." In fact, I agree with you that pain and suffering exist. Suffering is in other people's lives, maybe the same people who have blame, shame, and problems, not mine. You are absolutely welcome to it, though -- I will not come between you and your suffering!

Along with suffering, you also have your belief that pain can't be joy, and hats can't be bananas (you obviously don't hang out with my crowd ). I just don't have that one. But I don't begrudge you that belief -- even though you seem to begrudge me NOT having it! (Hopefully that gives you no pain or suffering.)

Who said anything about trying to convince anyone of anything? Not my bag. There's no convincing necessary!

Heh, I don't begrudge you for not having it. I'm just calling BS on this particular belief system of yours. Heck, you're not seriously going to say that you never stub your toe, get a headache, get sick, feel a twinge of loss when you say goodbye to a friend you may never see again, etc.

To do so would seriously dampen all of the awesome advice you give here. I personally, in my short time here, have come to look forward to a lot of your posts. But to hear you outright lie like this does bother me a bit, I'll admit.

Unless you are trying to lessen the affects of those pains you feel by putting a positive spin on it. Then again, though, trying to make a postive out of a negative is a bit of a waste of energy.

[Algernon]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

So I will offer you one little bit of advice. Even if you do not believe at all in the "mystical" or "paranormal" aspects of the LOA, try to understand that your thinking is highly inefficient. For your own benefit, do a little experiment and for one day, or one week, or one month, keep monitoring your own thoughts. Whenever you grow conscious of your own thoughts, simply ask yourself:

"Is this a useful thought? Is this a constructive thought? Is this thought beneficial to me?"

And if it is, then continue to play with it, explore it, develop it, let it expand and grow. But if it is not a useful, constructive or beneficial, then stop immediately.

Just by doing that alone, and consistently, you will find a big increase in the quality of your existence.

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Avoiding your emotions, by repressing them, is useless. In karmic terms, if you do not face the experience that you have attracted, then the experience may pass, but it will recur again. Not necessarily in the same form, but with the same vibrational essence.

...

This is the critical point which many people don't understand. You shouldn't repress your negative emotions; you should transmute them. Eg if you feel angry about something, pretending that you're NOT angry about it is not the solution. What you need to do is stare squarely at your anger; acknowledge its existence; understand what triggered it off; break the causes down into their components' and transform your anger into more positive emotional states.

Good advice. I hope you will elaborate on the process of transmuting emotions.

Is there a different standard for dealing with negative thoughts (stop immediately) versus negative emotions (acknowledge its existence, understand what triggered it, etc.)?

[bluedragon]

Originally Posted by Angela

Really, bluedragon? I see people acknowledging and addressing each other's viewpoints all over the place!

I don't want to quote, but when someone says "reality is not subjective because them (as a person with 1 body and 1 mind) have not manifested all the suffering in the world, that is not at all addressing the other person's point of view, since the whole idea of subjective reality is that there is only one consciousness that manifested everything.
Maybe some people disagree with that, and they believe that people suffering can exist outside of consciousness, and that's a different point of view which I can understand, or maybe they disagree that everyone shares the same connection, and that's yet another point of view.
But saying that reality is not subjective because they can see objective phenomena with their objective eyes, it's just refusing to discuss subjective reality, at least, not in the way Steve described it, and his articles are, I believe, the reason this concept started being used here so extensively.

[andreelerowes]

ALG, I just wanted to say thanks for your calm, concise explanations. They've been rather helpful. So... Thanks!

[Daffy Duck]

Originally Posted by James81

Heck, you're not seriously going to say that you never stub your toe, get a headache, get sick, feel a twinge of loss when you say goodbye to a friend you may never see again, etc.

James, I'm sure she feels all those things, but in her belief she sees them all as Joy. Don't get too caught up in the labels though. I think she's seeing it from the idea that We Are All One and so on... the common "New Agey" beliefs. We can safely assume Angela is a human.

I'd bet that if Danger Man (her husband) came into the house, punched her in the face, raped a 2 month old baby in front of her, and then kicked it threw a window... I bet even Angela would have trouble keeping "endless joy" present in her mind. (Sorry to be graphic, but it's for a point)

If Angela would somehow keep a big smile (and maybe a round of applause) on her face while watching an infant get raped, well then... I don't like Angela and wouldn't listen to her anyway. Would you?

[James81]

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

James, I'm sure she feels all those things, but in her belief she sees them all as Joy.

But that's the whole point of what I am saying. They aren't Joy. So telling yourself that they ARE joy, is just lying to yourself.

This is one of those issues in personal development that I strongly disagree with....the idea of reprogramming yourself to think of bad things as good things. There's a big difference between keeping a positive outlook on life, and outright lying to yourself in the name of "being positive."

Don't mean to keep harping on a dead horse here, but this is one of those subjects I'm pretty passionate about.

[Daffy Duck]

Originally Posted by James81

But that's the whole point of what I am saying. They aren't Joy. So telling yourself that they ARE joy, is just lying to yourself.

I'm trying to stay away from the "subjective reality" discussion in this topic, but ...

In her reality, in her mind, if she was able to convince herself... to her, it would be joy. Know what I mean?

I know what you're saying. You're talking about being delusional, like someone who KNOWS the Sun doesn't really exist. It's a big illusion!

By the way, I'm Batman. Wanna see my cape?

I agree with you about taking positive thinking "too far." I can imagine someone saying that starving to death could be "ultimate joy" for them. Unfortunately, they aren't ever willing to try it. Hmmm... very suspicious. They're still human, keen on surviving and living life.

[Dharma]

Actually... ACTUALLY... if you take your joy and compress it way way down, it turns into...... pain.

Not kidding.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

In her reality, in her mind, if she was able to convince herself... to her, it would be joy. Know what I mean?

I know what you're saying. You're talking about being delusional, like someone who KNOWS the Sun doesn't really exist. It's a big illusion!

By the way, I'm Batman. Wanna see my cape?

I agree with you about taking positive thinking "too far." I can imagine someone saying that starving to death could be "ultimate joy" for them. Unfortunately, they aren't ever willing to try it. Hmmm... very suspicious. They're still human, keen on surviving and living life.

Fair enough.

In a way, I kind of see her point too. At the basest of levels, concepts like "joy" and "pain" are more subjective and are merely constructs of the reality that people create within themselves.

Like, for me, listening to hardcore rap music is pure pain. To someone else, though, it's pure joy.

But even within my own reality, I realize that pain exists, even if someone else wouldn't define pain in the same way that I do. And that's the point I'm trying to make.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Dharma

Actually... ACTUALLY... if you take your joy and compress it way way down, it turns into...... pain.

Not kidding.

This post intrigues me. Could you explain what you mean?

[Daffy Duck]

Originally Posted by James81

But even within my own reality, I realize that pain exists, even if someone else wouldn't define pain in the same way that I do. And that's the point I'm trying to make.

She realizes that pain exists. In her own words, she says:

Originally Posted by Angela

In fact, I agree with you that pain and suffering exist.

So in her reality they must exist or else she wouldn't be able to converse with you.

Haha, I realized quickly on this forum that there's a lot of word and mind games played here. It's a waste of time to me but it can be amusing sometimes. Of course, that's just MY opinion, isn't it?

Angela has felt pain before, just like you. If she was suddenly stabbed her in the eye, I'm 99% sure she wouldn't appreciate it, if only for a brief second. Does she have the mental calmness to be burned alive peacefully, like a certain monk? I don't knooooow. She seems to imply so, doesn't she?

[bluedragon]

Originally Posted by James81

But that's the whole point of what I am saying. They aren't Joy. So telling yourself that they ARE joy, is just lying to yourself.

Circumstances that are considered negative, such as loosing objects, loosing friends or being humiliated or insulted are totally different from suffering.
If something horrible would happen to someone, but that person would chose to live only in the present, and think only about what is happening in the present, he would not suffer anymore. If he accepted what happened, how on earth could he be suffering? It is not a delusion to accept that what happened, happened. It is delusional to constantly be in denial about what happened, which is the source of suffering about past events. While thinking about future pain is yet another source of suffering. It is not being delusional to believe that "it is not certain that you will suffer in the future".
And if you believe that it is not certain that you will suffer, then how can you suffer from fear or worrying or insecurity, when right now, in this second, you are there in front of your computer reading this? Do you call reading this sentence suffering? (I hope not ) Well, this is all that exists right now.

Originally Posted by James81

This is one of those issues in personal development that I strongly disagree with....the idea of reprogramming yourself to think of bad things as good things. There's a big difference between keeping a positive outlook on life, and outright lying to yourself in the name of "being positive."

Unless you are in physical pain right in this moment, you are not suffering except by your own choice to think that something bad will happen in the future (while this is NOT being realistic, since nobody knows exactly what will happen in the future), or by choosing to "live" in the past as if it were present.
Are you suggesting that if someone believes that what has happened in the past is not happening in the present, he is being delusional? Are people who live in the present delusional, while people who live in the past, reliving the suffering all over again are more realistic?
Read The Power of Now. It's not just words. Those people really know what they're talking about.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

Angela has felt pain before, just like you. If she was suddenly stabbed her in the eye, I'm 99% sure she wouldn't appreciate it, if only for a brief second. Does she have the mental calmness to be burned alive peacefully, like a certain monk? I don't knooooow. She seems to imply so, doesn't she?

Yeah, but let's not think about it. She deserves better than that thought. Let's think more about her being layed gentley down in a bed of roses and being tickled by feathers.

[Daffy Duck]

Sounds good to me. Do I sound violent? I give credit to the Saw movies for any ideas that pop into my head.

It's funny you mention tickling. My girlfriend says that extreme tickling is like "torture." So, I don't tickle her often.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

I give credit to the Saw movies for any ideas that pop into my head.

Ha ha, I love those movies. I mean, I could do without the gruesome torture, but the Jigsaw character is one that I find incredibly interesting. I suppose because of the psychological issues that he addresses and that exist within him.

[Angela]

You people and your gruesome internal representations. Sheesh.

I understand that you think that saying something like "Pain is good" is delusional and wrong and bad. Or that you think it's something I "convince" myself of for one reason or other.

And you're right that I don't intentionally manifest or actively seek out painful things like the ones you guys have so hideously described for me. (yechhh ) My preference is to feel really good.

And you might find it helpful to take on a perspective that I'm not lying when I say "pain is good" -- it's a matter of perspective. I would be more likely to say that "pain works really well in my life," just because judgements of "good" and "bad" don't work so well, so let's adjust that. Still, I'm good with "pain is good" in the sense that pain is a positive force in our lives, and that's good, isn't it?

Have you read stories such as this one, where a child bleeds to death or chews her lips to shreds or dies of an infection because she doesn't have the physical capacity to feel pain? Is that a challenge you would want in your life? I can't think of a more difficult challenge than not having that capacity, or having a child who doesn't have that basic inner resource. To me, that sounds infinitely more gruesome and horrible than some measly "Saw" scenario.

Pain is there to deliver a message. Pain is an angel! That is not to say that you want that angel to stick around for dinner -- I think it works best to just *get* the message, take appropriate action, thank the angel and show him the door. Once he has delivered his message, there's no need for him to hang out at your house anymore.

If the Angel of Pain -- whether it's physical or emotional -- is your roommate, I think it's wise to think hard about what message you're not getting through your thick skull. For him to move out before you get the message would not be nice -- it would leave you to the same fate as the little girl with congenital insensitivity to pain -- clueless. Pain is generous and pain is no wimpy pussball! Pain is your resource.

All this is not to say that it's my first choice. My preference is to be conscious enough to get the message without needing to feel pain, because, as I mentioned, I'd rather feel really good. So, the existence of pain is a resource for guiding me towards choices that work better for me before I even experience pain. This gets a little easier the older I get. And I'm not a master of it yet, but I'm working on it.

Do you get what I mean now? Or must I beat you about the head and shoulders?

[James81]

Originally Posted by Angela

You people and your gruesome internal representations. Sheesh.

I understand that you think that saying something like "Pain is good" is delusional and wrong and bad. Or that you think it's something I "convince" myself of for one reason or other.

And you're right that I don't intentionally manifest or actively seek out painful things like the ones you guys have so hideously described for me. (yechhh ) My preference is to feel really good.

And you might find it helpful to take on a perspective that I'm not lying when I say "pain is good" -- it's a matter of perspective. I would be more likely to say that "pain works really well in my life," just because judgements of "good" and "bad" don't work so well, so let's adjust that. Still, I'm good with "pain is good" in the sense that pain is a positive force in our lives, and that's good, isn't it?

Have you read stories such as this one, where a child bleeds to death or chews her lips to shreds or dies of an infection because she doesn't have the physical capacity to feel pain? Is that a challenge you would want in your life? I can't think of a more difficult challenge than not having that capacity, or having a child who doesn't have that basic inner resource. To me, that sounds infinitely more gruesome and horrible than some measly "Saw" scenario.

Pain is there to deliver a message. Pain is an angel! That is not to say that you want that angel to stick around for dinner -- I think it works best to just *get* the message, take appropriate action, thank the angel and show him the door. Once he has delivered his message, there's no need for him to hang out at your house anymore.

If the Angel of Pain -- whether it's physical or emotional -- is your roommate, I think it's wise to think hard about what message you're not getting through your thick skull. For him to move out before you get the message would not be nice -- it would leave you to the same fate as the little girl with congenital insensitivity to pain -- clueless. Pain is generous and pain is no wimpy pussball! Pain is your resource.

All this is not to say that it's my first choice. My preference is to be conscious enough to get the message without needing to feel pain, because, as I mentioned, I'd rather feel really good. So, the existence of pain is a resource for guiding me towards choices that work better for me before I even experience pain. This gets a little easier the older I get. And I'm not a master of it yet, but I'm working on it.

Do you get what I mean now? Or must I beat you about the head and shoulders?

That makes infinitely more sense than before. And this part:

So, the existence of pain is a resource for guiding me towards choices that work better for me before I even experience pain.

is really powerful.

But you can still beat me if you want.

[Daffy Duck]

As I read Angela's response, I thought, "It makes sense when it is formatted like this. But imagine if it was just one long sentence... that'd be a pain to read." Funny how my reading eyes have such a preference for blank lines.

Thanks for your response Angela.