Steve's opinion on Porn

[Angela]

{{{{{NOooooooooo!!!!}}}}}} Don't say that woooooorddddd!!!!!

[ArthurHung]

Does masturbation dissipate one's energy?

Hahahaha

Only if you are a boxer. I wouldn't suggest doing it for at least a month before a match.

[Kazeko]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

If you like watching porn, enjoy it guilt-free. If you don't like it, feel free to diddle yourself w/o it, or get someone else to help you. IMO having a partner is a lot more fun than watching a video though.

IMO, the fun is totally different. It's as different as wrestling show and pro boxing match. It's better to share love and intimacy with your private partner. But if you want a spectacular show of brutal pleasure (and besides, very often it's "themed") - porn prevails! Or/and if you want some not-too-healthy things, it's better to watch pros doing them (I hope, safely), not to participate by yourself (compare with pro boxing again). And by talking about such things in sex, I mean... (I hope, acronyms are ok, if not, moderators, forgive me in advance ) DP, ATM, and .... no acronym for that.. well, let it be DT I'd never do such things with my partner, for the sake of her health.

[Kazeko]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

I really don't know how the adult industry works on the inside, but the people I know who work in the field don't seem to mind it. In fact, they seem pretty happy with the high pay for doing something they enjoy. I have to admit I was amused, but also impressed, by the time and energy they spend working on their skills.

When I saw it (the high pay part to be precise), I thought "How weird. Steve doesn't know that porn star wages are not high at all, though he socialized with some of the stars." About 9 years ago I thought about becoming a porn star myself (so many confessions lately... I have to train my courage somehow ), and made some research and found out that porn movie actors were actually paid a very little (for the hard work, btw - believe me or not).

Today I've read Steve's words and thought - ok, the times have changed, cool. (Assuming Steve knows better as he talked to actors directly.)

But I've just read an amazing post from Violet Marcell's blog. I recommend reading it if you're interested (explicit): Violet Marcell’s Blog » Blog Archive » It’s who I am!

Violet says there that porn is her passion. (Being a porn actor actually costs her money.) How well-aligned with Steve's teachings

[Steve Pavlina]

When I made the comment about high pay, I was thinking mainly of strippers, since that's the main (legal) adult industry where I live. A stripper can earn a couple thousand dollars in one good night.

As far as porn videos are concerned, I really don't know what the pay is like. But I did hear comments that suggested that people in that field were happy with the pay for their efforts.

[Alfonso Crawford]

I've talked to a few people, myself, regarding this! (I thought we were going to discuss fighting-games, and LSD eventually became the primary topic of discussion… no complaints, though!) Guy×Guy-action pays a few grand per film: I wanna say $12,000, but I don't remember. The other variants are less than G×G-variety. If I recall correctly, the bottom-point is eight grand per movie.

I stick to the animated variety, and I don't know anything about that industry.

[sirkinm]

Originally Posted by Alfonso Crawford

I've talked to a few people, myself, regarding this! (I thought we were going to discuss fighting-games...

Are you into fighting games? SF4 is awesome. Hit me up if you're into it on the 360 .

Sorry, off topic

[inverse Paranoid]

Originally Posted by magic1

your behavior dosnt matter in the slightest, from a quantum level...its how you feel....cliche but just sooooooooo true

Thanks for sharing this.

[Angela Leeds]

Originally Posted by Angela

{{{{{ Ohhhh, }}}}}} that's such a horrible sounding word... I think only the cat and the fiddle should be allowed to do that....

This gave me a very big laugh...thanks.

"diddle" is just a wonderful word... lol...

[Kazeko]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

When I made the comment about high pay, I was thinking mainly of strippers, since that's the main (legal) adult industry where I live. A stripper can earn a couple thousand dollars in one good night.

As far as porn videos are concerned, I really don't know what the pay is like. But I did hear comments that suggested that people in that field were happy with the pay for their efforts.

How little I know about the legality (hope the word is right ) of the adult scene in U.S... What about that adult expo in Vegas then? Were they all strippers? (I guess, no - they could shoot their films outside U.S. and gather just for the meeting...)

And is it true (sorry for offtopic) that online poker is forbidden in U.S.A?

[Violet Marcell]

Originally Posted by Alfonso Crawford

I've talked to a few people, myself, regarding this! (I thought we were going to discuss fighting-games, and LSD eventually became the primary topic of discussion… no complaints, though!) Guy×Guy-action pays a few grand per film: I wanna say $12,000, but I don't remember. The other variants are less than G×G-variety. If I recall correctly, the bottom-point is eight grand per movie.

I stick to the animated variety, and I don't know anything about that industry.

Just to give a little insight from an industry insider Porn does not pay anywhere near that amount! The most popular and in-demand males in the industry don't even make $1000 per scene, and that's before taxes! Each person has their own rates based on their experience and demand, but industry averages for a regular boy-girl scene pays the girl between $600-$900...before taxes.

I wish it were more, as I'm sure everyone would like to make more money if they could easily... but as Kazeko said when mentioning my blog post... it's my passion. I'd still do it, even if there wasn't any pay at all!

Cheers!
Violet

[Kazeko]

Hi Violet!

Thank you for sharing! And many thanks for your great earlier post "How open relationships can work". I've just enjoyed it. I wonder why there are no comments at all, including mine... So I've decided to express my appreciation right here!

[ballhit2]

Porn reflects a society hell-bent on recording, maintaining, and observing itself.

With porn, you're actually talking about burning moments of intense pleasure to DVD and selling them. Endorphins, to nerve impulses, to sweaty muscle contractions, to photons, to information-capturing (seeing) bits of nanomanufactured metal and plastic, to magnetized storage, to Fed Ex trucks or internet servers and wires, to your home, to information-capturing (seeing) bits of biomanufactured eyeballs and optic nerves, to endorphins.

If you came to the end of the post, thanks!

[Parthon]

You could use the same analogy for all of Media couldn't you?

[Milena]

I think that men who grew up watching porn and men who didn't have different ideas and expectations about women and sex. And it bothers me. And it bothers me that it doesn't bother any of you.

Of course it's disempowering to women. Porn has created an entire generation of men who expect women to be hairless down there despite the discomfort and health risks. I'm gonna guess and say it's in the last 20 years or so that this has become "fashionable", and it all started from porn.

Porn also shows atypical routes to male and female arousal. If porn were realistic there would be at least an hour of foreplay before intercourse happened (for female orgasm to happen). Porn also propagates the idea that "the bigger the better". You also have the hyper-sexualization of breasts, contributing to a culture where women can't breastfeed in public in a lot of places.

I find it kind of disturbing that young men who watch porn learn what should turn them on. Like high heels, huge breasts, passivity, etc. Not only do girls receive messages from the media about how to look, but they also get messages from boys who from a young age know what is 'sexy'.

I just think it's crazy how porn defines sexuality in so many ways. I wish people would open their eyes and realize this. I don't think porn in itself is bad; but most of what comes out of the porn industry does nothing to improve/enhance peoples' sexuality. If anything, it represses the sexuality of women.

[Fredrik]

It's very true that women are often pictured as disempowered creatures with average breast cups not true to the average and hairless to the max. It's sad that this makes men expect the same in reality.

On the other hand, you also have men pictured with a 20 cm long rod that are far above the real average. Men are shown as much bigger than they really are, and this makes many believe that it is in fact average. It's a common thing to believe that one's penis is small when it is average, and that women will expect something bigger.

Porn is not very realistic either, since woman and man usually orgasm at the same time during intercourse after a very short amount of time (often). IRL it's common for females to take longer to orgasm and the parts need to be more creative.

Pornography does not have to be like that, but it sadly often is. I personally like to see porn as a place of fiction where our fantasies are lived out, and don't neccesarily see anything wrong with it except that it can create a very disturbed illusion.

[Johnny Soporno]

Originally Posted by Milena

Porn has created an entire generation of men who expect women to be hairless down there despite the discomfort and health risks. I'm gonna guess and say it's in the last 20 years or so that this has become "fashionable", and it all started from porn.

With all due respect, Milena, shaving "down there" is not a new thing at all; consider the word "merkin" which dates back to the mid 15th Century, and describes a pudenda hair-piece. The 'health risks' of which your speaking are unknown to me, although there is a substantially increased health risk to NOT shaving "down there", in the forms of sexually transmitted infections and parasites which can exist undetected under the fur.

What porn DID do in that regard was ENORMOUSLY increase the social acceptance and general palatability of oral sex. Prior to the '70s, cunnilingus was extremely uncommon in Puritanical cultures (like the U.S.), and finding a woman who would perform fellatio regularly was considered remarkable.

In the overwhelming majority of countries where pornography is outlawed, women have been HOLISTICALLY disempowered, and have few rights AT ALL.

Originally Posted by Milena

Porn also shows atypical routes to male and female arousal. If porn were realistic there would be at least an hour of foreplay before intercourse happened (for female orgasm to happen).

Here you are projecting your own sexuality onto the rest of the world, unfairly. While for many women, particularly those in long-term committed/exclusive relationships, orgasms may require a good deal of foreplay and take a long time to achieve, many other women who engage in 'quickies' with new or occasional lovers do so because they DO reach climax very rapidly, often explicitly because of the enhanced intensity of the encounter.

Originally Posted by Fredrik

On the other hand, you also have men pictured with a 20 cm long rod that are far above the real average. Men are shown as much bigger than they really are, and this makes many believe that it is in fact average. It's a common thing to believe that one's penis is small when it is average, and that women will expect something bigger.

Yup... MOST heterosexual men will virtually never see other mens' erections outside of porn, and therefore believe that what they have seen MUST be 'normal'. Fortunately for them, most WOMEN are delighted that their partners ARE closer to average!

Porn is generated to tantalize and to arouse, and everyone will have their own preference/fetish if they bother to explore it... and if they can find whatever they have developed a fondness for in videos out in the real world, then more power to them!

Johnny Soporno
Worthy Playboy

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Johnny Soporno

Yup... MOST heterosexual men will virtually never see other mens' erections outside of porn, and therefore believe that what they have seen MUST be 'normal'. Fortunately for them, most WOMEN are delighted that their partners ARE closer to average!

Is it just me or has the entire penis enlargement industry focused on making "normal guys" feel insecure? I can't think of anything that a guy could be more self-conscious of, than his penis size (this is assuming that they actually care about the messages they see in the media). You've got these phony infomericals where if you drink a redbull like drink and take some pills every day, you'll get bigger. And to make it worse, women talk about size as being extremely important, and a common insult to a guy is that he was small or not good in bed, things he can't necessarily control (at least the size part).

So guys get just as bad images of themselves from porn as women do. And what is probably worse about porn is it tricks men into thinking they don't have to go out and meet women. Their genes want to reproduce, so the easiest thing to kill that urge is go online and watch porn. No girl necessary. It takes away the natural drive to go out and socialize.

I don't think porn is good or bad, it's beyond a value judgement, it is simply a part of society that we have to live with. But in my opinion, it's more harmful than helpful.

And I'm on a porn moratorium right now, so I can get all high and mighty today.

[Daffy Duck]

I personally don't have a problem with porn. I watched a bit of it during my teens and eventually got bored. Okay, there's another penis going into another vagina. Oh, now it's going into a mouth. Woo hoo. To me, sex is not much of a sport for spectators... it's only good for players.

Porn can become a harmful addiction. Serial killer Ted Bundy was against porn. He said,

"Pornography was a determining factor in my downfall. Somehow I became sexually attracted to young boys and I would fantasize about them naked. Certain bookstores offered sex education, photographic, or art books which occasionally contained pictures of nude boys. I purchased such books and used them to enhance my masturbatory fantasies.

"Finding and procuring sexually arousing materials became an obsession. For me, seeing pornography was lighting a fuse on a stick of dynamite. I became stimulated and had to gratify my urges or explode. All boys became mere sexual objects. My conscience was desensitized and my sexual appetite entirely controlled my actions."

ObscenityCrimes.org

Ya know, some people can have a "healthy relationship" with porn and some can't. It's just like alcohol, in that sense.

Milena, what Johnny said is true. Orgasms for women depend on many factors which mostly have a lot to do with the woman herself. I've only had long-term partners (my shortest relationship was 1.5 years) and all of them were able to have orgasms within 5-10 minutes by intercourse alone. Of course, foreplay and all of the other stuff is great fun too. I agree that porn can form the wrong idea of sex in the minds of men, but again, it depends on the man.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

Okay, there's another penis going into another vagina. Oh, now it's going into a mouth. Woo hoo.

I prefer girl on girl action.

[michael624u]

nothing is wrong with it. the problem lies its being overwatched by some as it is easily addictive

[missing]

Originally Posted by Milena

Of course it's disempowering to women. Porn has created an entire generation of men who expect women to be hairless down there despite the discomfort and health risks. I'm gonna guess and say it's in the last 20 years or so that this has become "fashionable", and it all started from porn.

personally I'm not much into the "hairless" look. It reminds me of a an alien, or worse, a child. Not that I want to encounter a jungle; grooming is good, but the whole "bald" look that is so popular, it freaks me out. I surely would not "expect" women to be hairless "down there" but I'm only one guy. ymmv.

Originally Posted by Milena

Porn also shows atypical routes to male and female arousal. If porn were realistic there would be at least an hour of foreplay before intercourse happened (for female orgasm to happen).

it's often said that the fantasy of porn is that "she always says yes", though personally I think it'd be more accurate to say that the fantasy for guys is getting all the sex they want without any work. Which if you kind of think about it is rather "duuuhhh", like fantasizing about winning the lottery. Who the hell wants to watch porn that has a bunch of boring foreplay? May as well just go for the real thing.

[Violet Marcell]

I don't have a lot to add, I think both sides have been discussed thoroughly, but I'd just like to add my 2cents for a little something else to think about.

As far as porn creating the illusion that men desire and expect women to have completely shorn genitalia, well, I'm not so sure. The defining and influential adult films, that basically set the stage for 'modern porn' were from the 70's and early 80's when shaving your pubic hair was almost unheard of. Come to think of it, I think the radical shaving could have come from those morning fitness shows where the girls wear the tiniest leotards, that leave nothing to the imagination, and no coverage for pubic hair of any sort! ...But then again, from what I have been told, many men used those shows as masturbatory material anyway!

Anyway, my point is that I've been on a lot of porn sets, and seen a lot of my friends and co-stars while they were 'working', and it is rare to see a girl who shaves it all. I'd say the most common 'hairstyle' for women in porn is to keep a clean undercarriage, but leave the hair neatly trimmed on top. A lot of girls will be creative with it too, I've seen everything from lightning bolts, arrows, a 'V' for victory, and even a heart! Of all the men I've seen, both professionally and personally, the overwhelming consensus is that the completely bald look is *not* the most desired. I do understand, though, that my observations are based on a small number of men from North American culture. A worldwide survey might get different results.


As far as penis size goes, I'm not going to add much, but I'd like to mention that it's unfortunate that men are so worried about their penis size. Women insult men about their size and his sexual competence becuase they know it's something most men are obsessed with. It's a way to 'hit below the belt', so to speak , but it's just that. Sort of like when women call another woman 'slut.' It's a nasty, vile, insult, that hurts above all else. Johnny covers this thoroughly in his Seductive Reasoning Paradigm, so I wont elaborate much more than that. As far as women who express the importance for a man to be larger than average in order to satisfy her... this is usually the case of her experiencing the endorphin rush created by the trauma of it. Most of them will change their mind about 'bigger is better' once they meet someone who helps them to achieve real, profound, cathartic climaxes.

I do agree, however, that porn (while choosing men that are well endowed was more of a practical thing... it enabled the camera to capture a lot more of the action if the man can still reach the woman, but his body isn't in the way of the camera or lights), has influenced men's ideals about their size. It's tragic, because, like Johnny said, most women are much happier to have a man that is closer to average in size.


~Violet~

[cylon]

Great post Violet, thanks for taking the time to respond to all my points.

[JSB]

I see porn as the sexual equivalent of refined sugar: it appeals to a primal human instinct, but is an artificial "overload" of an adaptive biological urge.

Most people have an affinity for sweet flavors; this urge serves to help us find nutritious, carbohydrate-rich food: namely fresh fruit, a staple of the traditional (pre-agriculutural) human diet. Likewise, the appeal of rich, fatty flavors attracted us to high-calorie foods back when starvation or malnutrition were far greater threats than obesity or heart disease.

The same instincts prompting us to eat ripe fruit, nuts, and healthy wild game now prompt many of us to eat chips, candy, and cheeseburgers. Fruit is no longer sweet enough, wild game is no longer rich enough to satisfy the cravings. The system has been artifically overloaded and the circuits have burned out; the adaptation has become maladaptive.

Likewise, the sexual urge kept us breeding and building social connections. Back when the average male hunter gatherer might see only 100 women in his lifetime, physical beauty and sexual attractiveness pushed him to be most smitten by the healthiest (no blemishes or external signs of disease/parasites), most fertile women (hence the innate attraction to young women).

Today, advertising, television, mainstream and pornography expose the average man to more intense, "appealing" sexual stimuli in one day than his ancestors experienced in an entire lifetime. For some people, pornography has jaded their sexual palate. The real live woman no longer excites them enough. Once again, the system has been artifically overloaded and the circuits have burned out; the adaptation has become maladaptive.

I don't want to rail against the "evils of smut", but just point out that it may not be as harmless as many people think, at least in high doses. Freedom of expression and the decoupling of sex from shame are wonderful things and should be encouraged. I just think that pornography does have its down side.

I mean no disrespect to those invloved in pornography. I admire the courage it must take to put yourself out there for the whole world to see, and I greatly value what sexual liberation has done in uprooting repressive, judgemental condemnation and Puritanism. I just wonder if there might actually be some psychological benefit to moderating our urges (as opposed to shaming or repressing them).

Any thoughts?

[sirkinm]

Originally Posted by JSB

I see porn as the sexual equivalent of refined sugar: it appeals to a primal human instinct, but is an artificial "overload" of an adaptive biological urge.

Today, advertising, television, mainstream and pornography expose the average man to more intense, "appealing" sexual stimuli in one day than his ancestors experienced in an entire lifetime. For some people, pornography has jaded their sexual palate. The real live woman no longer excites them enough. Once again, the system has been artifically overloaded and the circuits have burned out; the adaptation has become maladaptive.

We not only see more sexually appetizing content in one day than our ancestors did in a lifetime, most of us see more people in one day than our ancestors had ever encountered. I was just marveling at this fact the other day, on a crowded Chicago street.

Excellent post, JSB -- I like the parallel to bad carbs.

This conversation reminds me of a quote from a recent Adam Carolla podcast (highly recommended), where they were singing the praises of masturbating to internet porn:

"I mean, sex is good too, but it's not the real thing."

It's undeniable that for some, pornography becomes a stifling, damaging force in their lives. You could make the counter argument that for many unwillingly celibate people (esp. men), it provides a release valve, giving them sexual gratification that might be frustratingly difficult to come by otherwise. It def fuels sexual compulsion in many cases, but we can't really know the degree to which it may turn potential Columbine killers into happy masturbators.

I'm a little wary of porn in that it is always pushing the boundaries. Can you imagine the porn of 2025? Will we see sites like 15midgets1donkey.com? (Not a real site...I hope).