Is Steve againts "slave labour" or not?

[dwixi]

It seems that Steve has conflicting views about if enplyee labor helps people or not. In a recent post he was saying how most jobs don't need to be done anyway, witch is true. If there was no garbage men we would be forced to face our problems with waste rather than just pay someone to make us forget about it. But it's really not like this with everything.

Steve employs help for housework and says he likes the service of some employees but at the same time try to help them quit there job. So he would be happy if he went to the store to get something then the enplyees quit so he couldn't get what he wanted?
I agree with him about these things not being needed but it's the hypocrit bit that I don't like.
If you don't like the fact a shop enplpoys people then don't shop there! If you don't like that your maid isn't Pershing her dreams don't encorage her by employing her in the first place! You have consumer choice. If products from the self employed are better then why don't you buy from them? Every time you buy something it's like your making a vote that that thing is valuble and it should keep being made.

[Brutha]

Steve isn't attached to any of his beliefs.
He doesn't have to be either for "employee labor" or against it.

[dwixi]

Originally Posted by Brutha

Steve isn't attached to any of his beliefs.
He doesn't have to be either for "employee labor" or against it.

That's silly!
By not being attached to his belifs he means he is always open to change them, not have two unaligned belifs fighting with each other as they appear here.

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by dwixi

That's silly!
By not being attached to his belifs he means he is always open to change them

That's true, he is open to change his belief if he feels other beliefs are better for the situation that he finds himself in

[Brutha]

That's silly!
By not being attached to his belifs he means he is always open to change them, not have two unaligned belifs fighting with each other as they appear here.

Yeah Steve's is sometimes silly.
As they say it's a sign of genius to hold to conflicting ideas in your head at the same time.

In probability theory you have something like hidden Markov models that are a bit like belief sets.
In a hidden Markov model the most probably path is called viterbi path. There another way to generate path called posterior decoding that sometimes produces paths that are impossible but that often gets more things right than you get when you use the most probably path.
That's mathematical reality.

If you live in a world where you can't know things with 100% certainity allowing your belief set to have contradictions results in better theories (measured by the number of facts that the theory gets right) than believing in the most probable theory.

[dwixi]

Originally Posted by seeker5

That's true, he is open to change his belief if he feels other beliefs are better for the situation that he finds himself in

but isn't that out of alignment with truth?

[Brutha]

but isn't that out of alignment with truth?

Steve follows the idea subjective reality and therefore truth doesn't always mean the thing that it does when you are yourself accustomed to thing in term of objective reality.
Truth in PDFSP can depend on context.

[Trezker]

Originally Posted by dwixi

but isn't that out of alignment with truth?

Maybe he just hasn't found the unifying theory in this area yet. So he has to live with two theories until he can figure it out. It's impossible to live with just one of them as that would mean a broken life. He must replace both with a third theory that keeps life whole and solves the inconsistencies of the other two.

[bluedragon]

Someone who is working for Steve does almost as an important job as Steve himself does, since that person helps him by allowing him to have more time to blog, coach, or do whatever he does.
Besides, Steve doesn't have the ability to free his employee from slavery, cause if he would not hire him, that person would just go take another job somewhere else. So at least by hiring that person, he can make sure he treats her like a business partner, and equal, and not like a slave.

[threeofclubs]

Calling every single person who works for someone else a "slave" seems completely over the top.It's very imprecise. It reminds me of people trying to sell get rich quick schemes.

[dwixi]

Originally Posted by threeofclubs

Calling every single person who works for someone else a "slave" seems completely over the top.It's very imprecise. It reminds me of people trying to sell get rich quick schemes.

Yeah, I don't really agree on calling them slaves but I guess it would only offend people that are unsure about there job anyway. If you were happy with what you were doing they wouldn't need to be nudged in a better direction.

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by threeofclubs

Calling every single person who works for someone else a "slave" seems completely over the top.It's very imprecise. It reminds me of people trying to sell get rich quick schemes.

I agree that not everyone who works for others would fit the "slave" category.

However, calling employees as slave is a pretty good broad description, concerning how most people conduct themselves. I see so many employees say things like:

"I hope my boss (master) will allow me to take the time off the next day."

"I need to please my boss (master), so he will give me a 6% raise instead of just a 3% this year"

"Can I get away with this so my boss (master) will not see me?"

A truly free person does not think or act in this fashion.

Many bosses also treat their employees as slave. They see employees as robot-like that they can direct and tell them to do what they wish and expect them to carry it out or they get fired. The boss also get to direct their employee's mind (or body depending on whether the job is manual or professional) as they wish. A truly free person does not allow their boss to direct them like this, and instead choose what to focus their mind (or body) on what they themselves feel is best.

So, the term "slave" is a good one for the most part, although it doesn't apply to everyone. There are a number of people who are employees and have jobs who stand up for themselves and who work autonomously and without fear of being fired or let go and thus aren't in the slave mode. However, I'd say most people are, at least in my experience.

[Andrew Brunelle]

There are slaves in this world and he is denying that fact. People who really do have no choice and have no alternative. There are people in other countries that would starve to death if they didn't become slaves due to their land being stripped of all its resources by countries like the US and European countries. It's very sad and I remember writing something and Steve responded by saying that slaves choose their slavery when it's often not true. I think he's just trying to justify buying things that were manufactured of picked by slaves by saying they choose their labor.

I'm not Steve, but through subjectivity, Steve is a part of me. I still buy food flown from slave labor plantations and still buy manufactured goods which are probably made by slaves. But I've bought a lot less in the last few years and if I want something, I find a way to either get it for free or go without. At least that way I'm not supporting companies that exploit their workers.

Steve has quite a narrow audience with respect to the world. People in Africa who have had everything taken from them don't have access to his blog and have no idea that they could do better. They just live the way they're forced to live, or they die. I suggest reading some Ran Prieur dot com if you want to get a good view on how civilization is wrong and what it does to the whole world at large.

[Brutha]

Steve has quite a narrow audience with respect to the world.

I don't think that's true.
According to Google websites trends more people in South Africa read Steve website than people in Germany do.

People who really do have no choice and have no alternative. There are people in other countries that would starve to death if they didn't become slaves due to their land being stripped of all its resources by countries like the US and European countries.

There always the existential freedom to make choices but those choices happen to have consequences.
If you take the opportunity to work for a Western company from them they aren't better of than they would be if they themselves would choose not to work for that company in the first place.

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by Andrew Brunelle

There are slaves in this world and he is denying that fact. People who really do have no choice and have no alternative.

How is he denying the fact that there are slaves in the world if he calls employees slaves?

However, slaves who are forced into labor in countries still have a choice. They can choose to refuse to work. They may be shot, or otherwise, but that is still a choice. If enough slaves were to refuse to work and sacrifice their lives rather then live in slavery, then eventually the owners would not find it profitable to have slaves.

[dwixi]

Originally Posted by seeker5

How is he denying the fact that there are slaves in the world if he calls employees slaves?

However, slaves who are forced into labor in countries still have a choice. They can choose to refuse to work. They may be shot, or otherwise, but that is still a choice. If enough slaves were to refuse to work and sacrifice their lives rather then live in slavery, then eventually the owners would not find it profitable to have slaves.

I think he means Steve is acting in denile of real slaves because of the fact he is calling people that aren't really slaves "slaves". A slave is someone forced into work for some reason without pay. Enplyees are not slaves! However there are people that do fall under the definition of being actual slaves.

[munish]

We are all slaves.

Slaves to our desires.

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by munish

We are all slaves.

Slaves to our desires.

I'm a slave to my fish and my dog. They always want me to feed them. I go out and earn money so that I can buy food to feed them.

That means I'm a slave to them. However, I don't mind being a slave to them because at least they are very grateful. Just the look I get from my dog when I give him food is worth being a slave to him.

Steve's a slave to us. He has to write articles and stuff on his Blog so that we keep coming back, clicking on stuff, donating, buying his book or other things he promotes.

[Trezker]

Here's an interesting video presenting a view of what slavery really is.
It was posted in another thread on this forum, for procrastination.
The video explains the connection between procrastination and slavery.

YouTube - Procrastination...

[dwixi]

Originally Posted by impaul99

I'm a slave to my fish and my dog. They always want me to feed them. I go out and earn money so that I can buy food to feed them.

That means I'm a slave to them. However, I don't mind being a slave to them because at least they are very grateful. Just the look I get from my dog when I give him food is worth being a slave to him.

Steve's a slave to us. He has to write articles and stuff on his Blog so that we keep coming back, clicking on stuff, donating, buying his book or other things he promotes.

A slave is when you don't get anything in retern and your not volentering.

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by dwixi

A slave is when you don't get anything in retern and your not volentering.

A slave is more then that. Even the slave you're thinking of get shelter, food, keep their life, the ability to marry, have kids, etc. Even some slaves you're thinking of get a little bit of spending money, or some form or objects, etc.

What defines a slave really is the belief they are forced to do what they have do. They have a master that they feel they must obey, and obey their master overtly. However, both the slaves you're talking about, and the slave-employees also sometimes sabotage their masters behing their back, so that obedience is not perfect. Nevertherless, slaves fear their masters and will do what they can to not cause any dissapointments in their masters. Slaves live in fear that their masters will not approve of them and are driven to do what their masters allow them to do. The master thus has significant power of them, over how they direct their bodies, how they direct the mind, when and how they must work. Slave feels they have little to no power.

Sounds to me like a number of employees.

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by munish

We are all slaves.

Slaves to our desires.

We can free ourselves from our desires

[threeofclubs]

Originally Posted by seeker5

How is he denying the fact that there are slaves in the world if he calls employees slaves?

However, slaves who are forced into labor in countries still have a choice. They can choose to refuse to work. They may be shot, or otherwise, but that is still a choice. If enough slaves were to refuse to work and sacrifice their lives rather then live in slavery, then eventually the owners would not find it profitable to have slaves.

You are right. They do have a choice. Either work for the master or be killed or see family members being killed.
i imagine thats exactly the same choice that highly skilled professionals such as a surgeon or a professional basketball player face.

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by threeofclubs

You are right. They do have a choice. Either work for the master or be killed or see family members being killed.
i imagine thats exactly the same choice that highly skilled professionals such as a surgeon or a professional basketball player face.

I've seen and worked with highly skilled professionals making $100K per year or more who behaved in slavish ways. They were concerned about pleasing their bosses, they couldn't take time off until their master..uh boss approved it, they worked out of fear they could be fired or denied promotion or raise, their mind and body was directed by their boss. In my view, they behaved not as free men, but as slaves, regardless of their skills.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by seeker5

I've seen and worked with highly skilled professionals making $100K per year or more who behaved in slavish ways. They were concerned about pleasing their bosses, they couldn't take time off until their master..uh boss approved it, they worked out of fear they could be fired or denied promotion or raise, their mind and body was directed by their boss. In my view, they behaved not as free men, but as slaves, regardless of their skills.

That is so true. After my last job, I realized this was what happened to me. I was living my bosse's life. My emotional state was based on his approval of my work. And fortunately for me, my boss was a sociopath.

Of course I was a "fighter" and was always speaking out against him, to his face... but in the end, I was simply reacting to him, so he owned me.

Makes me feel icky thinking about it. I will never allow another individual to affect my emotional well-being, or my livelihood in that way again.

[MidasGirl]

Originally Posted by seeker5

We can free ourselves from our desires

Not really. The only way to do that is to be dead. Even the desire to go to the bathroom is still a desire.

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by MidasGirl

Not really. The only way to do that is to be dead. Even the desire to go to the bathroom is still a desire.

There are some desires we can free ourselves. For example, Steve was a slave to his desire to shoplift and steal. He couldn't control it. He eventually became a master and became free of this desire.

I myself used to be a slave to my desire to drink coke. I couldn't help myself and had to drink coke every day for a good number of years. Eventually, I gathered enough energy and determination to free myself from this desire or die trying. So, now, I have been free of this desire for a year and 4 months.

So, yes, it's possible to free yourself of a desire .

[MidasGirl]

Originally Posted by seeker5

So, yes, it's possible to free yourself of a desire .

I don't disagree that one can free themselves of a desire, or some desires. But not all desires. So we are always slaves to some desires. Always. The key is to enslave oneself to desires that serve our higher selves. So if somebody feels jobbing serves their highest and best purpose, it's really not up to anyone to judge. The problem is that people enslave themselves then complain about it. Most people wake up and go to work out of fear, not out of a desire to be of service. They are a slave to their fear.

[threeofclubs]

Originally Posted by seeker5

I've seen and worked with highly skilled professionals making $100K per year or more who behaved in slavish ways. They were concerned about pleasing their bosses, they couldn't take time off until their master..uh boss approved it, they worked out of fear they could be fired or denied promotion or raise, their mind and body was directed by their boss. In my view, they behaved not as free men, but as slaves, regardless of their skills.

i agree with what you are saying and have seen that type of behaviour in both myself and others.
However Steve Pavlina seems to imply that everyone in a job is like that.
and his talk about happily taking advantage of slaves seemed a bit odd and incongruent with many of his other statements.
Why would a doctor that worked in a hospital or for a charity in the developing world and loved the work be a slave but someone who owns a business that hardly makes any money and works more than 70 hours a week be considered far happier and more free?
Is he deliberately making a massive exaggeration for effect?

[Andrew Brunelle]

Originally Posted by seeker5

How is he denying the fact that there are slaves in the world if he calls employees slaves?

However, slaves who are forced into labor in countries still have a choice. They can choose to refuse to work. They may be shot, or otherwise, but that is still a choice. If enough slaves were to refuse to work and sacrifice their lives rather then live in slavery, then eventually the owners would not find it profitable to have slaves.

So you're saying they should just starve to death instead of working for food? Is that what you're saying? That is their choice? People are tremendously fearful of death. And especially starving to death. It's a very painful way to die. It's not their fault they were born in a third world country. You can't blame them for being born in a place where that type of exploitation takes place. I agree that wage workers and corporate people are slaves, but they have a choice, many choices, much more than the slave worker in India or Pakistan has.