On Subjective Reality/God Consciousness

[eternomi]

I don't know what exactly kicked me in my heineken, but I reread the "subjective reality" series of blog posts.

Apparently I had failed to grasp Steve's perspective the first hundred times I read these posts. I always thought the consciousness was due to the body/brain, but S/R suggests that this is not so. The body I normally identify with is no different than any other body I see. It is simply an automoton that obeys the consciousness which I experience. It is thought that animates the body I normally relate to and the other ones as well.

If I stop identifying with the body that I used to refer to as "I", and refer to the experience of consciousness as "I", this answers a lot of questions, but brings up new ones such as:

* I always thought consciousness was a byproduct of the body, so I explained not being aware of anything before birth to not having a body. How does one explain "not having a beginning" within S/R? If I always were, then why don't I remember it?

* Consciousness controls the actions of all beings via the thoughts/beliefs it holds.. But it doesn't handle all the details? For example, if my consciousness intends peace, love and harmony for all, it doesn't have to spell out the procedure as to how this is going to be accomplished? Another aspect of this is, how does the belief of "people are untrustworthy" or "people are loving" manifest "exactly"? Who is handling the details? If the consciousness is handling them, then why am I not fully aware of all the details of what is being manifested?

* I always thought the body experienced things which helped it grow. Now that this body is the same as all the other ones in a single unitary perspective, how can consciousness grow? Growth requires time and we just said time is within the consciousness container, so by definition, consciousness shouldn't be experiencing growth or learning... Why isn't the consciousness container all-knowing in the first place?

* Since I related my consciousness to a physical body (the brain to be specific), I kept thinking the body controlled what my consciousness could know/feel/perceive etc. If that is not so, then what does the "subconscious" have to do with anything? If the consciousness is all there is, then how come there are "background processes" that always run "seemingly outside of my consciousness" working against my intentions?

Steve, if you have answers to these, please share here or in a blog post.
Thank you

[eternomi]

No takers?

[Athena]

you mean 'any takers?'

good questions.

* I always thought the body experienced things which helped it grow. Now that this body is the same as all the other ones in a single unitary perspective, how can consciousness grow? Growth requires time and we just said time is within the consciousness container, so by definition, consciousness shouldn't be experiencing growth or learning... Why isn't the consciousness container all-knowing in the first place?

I wonder the same too. If our souls are simply extensions of the universal force, like drops of water from the ocean, there really isn't any true differentiation among them, and we should all have the same wisdom and knowledge. I think it's kinda weird that some people say 'we are all the same' at the soul level, but then go on to say that we are in physical form in order for our souls to learn certain lessons or advance on to further levels of consciousness.

I think that rather than 'learning' or 'advancement' of individual souls, the purpose of souls incarnating into physical form is contributive to the whole evolution and progression of humanity, an element of the universe, and dictated by God.


I am tempted to believe that our souls may not actually be individual, but simply parts of a whole force or body of energy, kind of like electricity-- it looks like it is confined to your lamp when it's lit, but after that it goes back to mass undifferentiated form.
Our energy and souls may simply go back to source, like drops of water end up back in clouds, be spread out again into source as generic soul energy, then part of that soul energy is pinched off again whenever someone is born in physical form. Our souls appear to be individual, but are only for a short period of time, and in their true form they are simply in an undifferentiated mass.


But I guess those who travel to the astral realm think we're still separate.

Hm.

[skydust]

you have asked some big questions. id love to hear what people have to say about them. ive also wondered why we dont remember our birth, or moment of conception.

Originally Posted by outback

* I always thought the body experienced things which helped it grow. Now that this body is the same as all the other ones in a single unitary perspective, how can consciousness grow? Growth requires time and we just said time is within the consciousness container, so by definition, consciousness shouldn't be experiencing growth or learning... Why isn't the consciousness container all-knowing in the first place?

i posed a similar line of questions about consciousness to my guides recently as i never understood why, if consciousness was all there is, would it want to give this up and forget it, just to have it again. what is the point? and their reply was as follows:

Whats the point in not having something you already have so that you can have it again?
--because its fun.

Is that all you have to say about that?
--we enjoy *consciously* reconnecting to the source.

has consciousness always existed within space/time reality?
--YES. because it created this reality in the first place.

so can consciousness create istelf?
-- consciousness IS consciousness.

can it uncreate/destroy itself?
--implicably yes

what would happen if consciousness became unconscious of itself?
--we would have what we have now, our reality IS consciousness being unconscious of itself, to see what its like and so it can become aware of itself again.

what is unconsciousness?
--not being aware that you are consciousness


its all a bit mind-boggling

[eternomi]

Originally Posted by Athena

you mean 'any takers?'

The first post had the implied "any takers?" built in. This second post kinda sorta assumed that there were no takers, but I was hoping someone (Steve, are you out there?) would bite.

Originally Posted by Athena

I am tempted to believe that our souls may not actually be individual, but simply parts of a whole force or body of energy, kind of like electricity-- it looks like it is confined to your lamp when it's lit, but after that it goes back to mass undifferentiated form.

This is an excellent point! And I believe a lot of people are mislead here. When we are in the physical form, we say we can distinguish individual people. As you said we cannot distinguish between the electricity in your house and the electricity in my house. It is all the same electricity to our eyes per se (so is water and air), but we could probably devise ways to distinguish between the two even after they merge when they leave our houses! We just don't care to be able to do it.

My ultimate point is that just because you merged back with the "one soul" after death (of course, the assumption that "with birth to this world we separated from it" is probably wrong to begin with) probably does not mean we cannot distinguish souls any more. Once we go to that dimension, perhaps our soul bodies will have the necessary senses to be able to distinguish between the personalities of different souls including our own.

I guess this is similar to distinguishing radio stations and listening to the one we like amongst the sea of all other electromagnetic radiation. They are all out there simultaneously, and with the right tool (sense) you can tune into a specific one.

To me this says, just because you died out of this body and "merged" with the soul dimension, does not mean you will automatically become consious of something you were not consious of before you got there. However, for some of us, this new soul body will probably make it easier to at least accept that there is more after the death of the "physical" body.

[Rocket Surgery]

Originally Posted by outback

* I always thought consciousness was a byproduct of the body, so I explained not being aware of anything before birth to not having a body. How does one explain "not having a beginning" within S/R? If I always were, then why don't I remember it?

My studies explain that the Earth is a school wherein the main courses of study are LOVE and ILLUSIONS OF SEPARATION. The students at this school are all reincarnating spirits. Each lifetime lived can be equated to a specific "class" within the main courses of study. No one will argue that the the most learning takes place when the student is totally focused on the material without distraction. Obviously, knowledge and memories of past lives lived and our non-physical reality would serve as a major distraction to our current purpose. It's difficult to be completely immersed in any experience when you're constantly aware that the experience is an illusion, right? This is why they turn the lights down in movie theaters and people frown on cell phones and talkers and other distractions.

If you think of your life as the "ultimate illusory experience," and how you are investing decades of time into this intense educational illusion, then you logically do not wish memories of your true reality to be constantly "kicking the back of your seat," do you? Therefore, we all metaphorically sign a spiritual contract to block these memories and knowledge in order to get the most out of each lifetime experience. Make sense?[/quote]

* Consciousness controls the actions of all beings via the thoughts/beliefs it holds.. But it doesn't handle all the details? For example, if my consciousness intends peace, love and harmony for all, it doesn't have to spell out the procedure as to how this is going to be accomplished? Another aspect of this is, how does the belief of "people are untrustworthy" or "people are loving" manifest "exactly"? Who is handling the details? If the consciousness is handling them, then why am I not fully aware of all the details of what is being manifested?

Similar answer to the previous. Consciousness DOES handle the details, just on a higher level than your waking ego is aware of. The personality you think of as "you" is not the entire "you," but rather a sort of emissary sent to Earth to learn and experience from a unique perspective from every other "emissary." The true and real you is, basically, the One God Consciousness, which is capable -- perhaps through a sort of "spiritual bureaucracy" of some sort -- of handling all the details, leaving you to concentrate on the mission at hand.

Imagine you are the lonely astronaut exploring a new world. You cannot be concerned with every little detail of all that it takes to place you on the surface of that speck of dust a billion miles away, nor of the thousands of support staff, each of whom has a specific responsibility that all culminates with your footprint in alien powder. Your job is enough to handle already, so you trust that everyone else is doing theirs.

* I always thought the body experienced things which helped it grow. Now that this body is the same as all the other ones in a single unitary perspective, how can consciousness grow? Growth requires time and we just said time is within the consciousness container, so by definition, consciousness shouldn't be experiencing growth or learning... Why isn't the consciousness container all-knowing in the first place?

This is perhaps where I differ from Steve's concept of subjective reality. Certainly, while I can conceive that everything that is may well exist WITHIN the One Cosmic Consciousness we refer to as "God," I'm still not sold on his idea that you are all mere projections of MY mind, and that this current life that I am living is the only one of any consequence.

I lean more towards the concept that the One Cosmic Consciousness, or OCC, had no choice but to MULTIPLY itself as the only possible way in which to grow. Time is, supposedly, a property of the PHYSICAL universe so that we are able to separate one event from another in order to better study the ramifications of same. Each lifetime lived is as unique as a snowflake, and by constantly creating new experiences, consciousness cannot help but grow.

* Since I related my consciousness to a physical body (the brain to be specific), I kept thinking the body controlled what my consciousness could know/feel/perceive etc. If that is not so, then what does the "subconscious" have to do with anything? If the consciousness is all there is, then how come there are "background processes" that always run "seemingly outside of my consciousness" working against my intentions?

Perhaps the conscious intentions of your waking ego -- your Earthly personality identity -- are in conflict with the lesson you came into this particular lifetime wishing to learn. Your higher self is always aware of your true purpose within each lifetime, and will take steps to try to steer you towards situations best suited to accomplishing that goal.

Suppose your soul intended this lifetime to be a lesson of empathy towards the struggle of minorities, so you chose a life situation where you were born and raised poor and black on the south side of Chicago. But your parents won the lottery, and you all moved to a wealthy white neighborhood and put all memory of struggle behind you. Good for your material desires, but your soul didn't come here to learn how to invest in mutual funds, so you perceive the universe as somehow working against you. By escaping the ghetto, you never experienced what it was like to grow up poor and black. Your intentions may be in conflict with your purpose, and therefore life seems to be working "against you."

This is just one possible scenario. There are countless possibilities for conflict between the desires of the waking, physical self and the higher self. The first step in resolving such conflicts is to realize and accept that your life does indeed have meaning and purpose, and that said purpose has nothing at all to do with acquiring wealth, romance or power except where the acquisition of these things is necessary for your spiritual growth and evolution.

Realizing that the greatest growth occurs through taking on challenges and overcoming obstacles, the best way to know if you are "in sync" with your true purpose and higher self is to look to those areas in life where you find that you are most challenged and constantly confront one obstacle after another. This is the Universe's way of signalling you that you are "on track."

Ever used an electronic device called a "stud finder"? It locates the 2x4's inside your walls so you can pound a nail into solid wood. Imagine your consciousness as a stud finder, and the 2x4's are the challenges and obstacles within your life. Point your focus towards the areas that challenge you; not towards the seemingly easy, hollow, drywall in between. You will find that when you home in on challenges and take them on with joy, all of the things that you THOUGHT you wanted in life will either come to you much more easily, or that you will no longer find them all that important anyway.

~ RS

[Athena]

Originally Posted by outback

The first post had the implied "any takers?" built in. This second post kinda sorta assumed that there were no takers, but I was hoping someone (Steve, are you out there?) would bite.

hahaha, I meant as in it IM, if you bump your post but say 'no takers' then it sounds like intending for it to be closed, when really I think you meant to be welcoming any takers.

Originally Posted by outback

My ultimate point is that just because you merged back with the "one soul" after death (of course, the assumption that "with birth to this world we separated from it" is probably wrong to begin with) probably does not mean we cannot distinguish souls any more. Once we go to that dimension, perhaps our soul bodies will have the necessary senses to be able to distinguish between the personalities of different souls including our own.

So, then our souls really are different and separate entities? That would mean it's not really a merging of anything, but simply souls traveling back to the spirit dimension.

And would mean, when the drops of water go back to the clouds, they are still separate.


===
===

Originally Posted by Rocket Surgery

Realizing that the greatest growth occurs through taking on challenges and overcoming obstacles, the best way to know if you are "in sync" with your true purpose and higher self is to look to those areas in life where you find that you are most challenged and constantly confront one obstacle after another. This is the Universe's way of signalling you that you are "on track."

Rocketsurgery, very thoughtful post!

Though I don't agree with that interpretation. I think that after an initial period of some obstacles and lessons, we know we are on the right path when things generally go smoothly and we feel pleased and full of joy from our contribution to the world.

[eternomi]

Originally Posted by Athena

So, then our souls really are different and separate entities? That would mean it's not really a merging of anything, but simply souls traveling back to the spirit dimension.

That makes more sense to me, but that's just me.

But let me add a bit of something extra here. It is not that your soul is separate or different, but the fact that you experience it as such makes it so... What does your heart experience? Does it feel whole with your body the way you feel it being whole with your body? Or does it see itself as being separate than the rest of your body but somehow cooperate with it? Will it realize that it was part of a whole body after it dies? Will it know that it died because the whole body died?

Originally Posted by Athena

And would mean, when the drops of water go back to the clouds, they are still separate.

It is all atoms and they are technically all different ones, but they are so tiny, you cannot distinguish which is which. However, if you marked them, you could track them. In fact, some of the latest medical technology does that to track molecules in your body to take nice clear pictures of your organs.

Technically, your entire body is brand new every 3 years or so... All the atoms are replaced with new ones, but somehow you rebuild the same body. Now does that mean you changed? or are you the same as before? Did you have to rebuild the exact same body? Did you merge with the world out there because the atoms which used to belong to your body left you? Did these atoms even realize they used to belong to a body, but now they don't?

[Rocket Surgery]

Originally Posted by skydust

you have asked some big questions. id love to hear what people have to say about them. ive also wondered why we dont remember our birth, or moment of conception.

There have been several scientific studies that produced solid evidence of reincarnation. A significant percentage of children report amazingly clear memories of past lives up until the age of approximately 4-5 years old.

Coincidentally, that's about the same age when most of us begin to remember our current lives in more linear, less-sporadic memories.

And of course there are countless records of memories of birth and past lives brought to the surface through past life regression hypnosis.

Whats the point in not having something you already have so that you can have it again?
--because its fun.

I forget the author for the moment, but one of my favorite expressions was how the human soul was referred to by a "teacher" personage as "the otters of the Universe." So that explanation makes complete sense to me.

I love to ride roller coasters. Some coasters are particular favorites, so I ride them over and over again. Why do this? I already have the experience of that particular coaster ride, and the track's path does not change, so what's to be gained by repeating the experience?

Well, how about JOY? Or FUN, as you put it.

If we are all the OCC, and supposedly already know all there is to know, then why go through all this for eternity? Because it's fun. I like that answer.

How many of us wish we were kids again, able to experience the world as for the first time through innocent eyes? Remember the magic of Christmas when we actually believed that Santa was real? That right there is reason enough to willfully agree NOT to remember past lives and what it's like to be an adult. It would totally kill all the fun of being a kid!

This is why I frown upon belief systems where life is a "one-shot" deal, and then you get judged by God and either rewarded with heaven or punished with hell. Such concepts not only prohibit any further spiritual growth; but not even the reward of "Heaven" sounds like very much FUN to me. Personally, the Christian concept of heaven sounds a lot more like what's going on in North Korea these days -- a bunch of brainwashed people marching around in lock-step, praising an egomaniacal, self-appointed "god", completely unaware that the rest of the world exists, and living in constant fear that to question their reality even for a moment could cost them their existence.

It's sadly ironic that evangelical Christians are probably the first to condemn that closed society (mainly because it oppresses religion), and yet that society is a near-perfect mirror for how they believe they'll spend eternity.

~ RS

[Athena]

Originally Posted by outback

Technically, your entire body is brand new every 3 years or so... All the atoms are replaced with new ones, but somehow you rebuild the same body. Now does that mean you changed? or are you the same as before? Did you have to rebuild the exact same body? Did you merge with the world out there because the atoms which used to belong to your body left you? Did these atoms even realize they used to belong to a body, but now they don't?

wow very interesting point! So it seems like there's still some 'binder' or conglomerative force, in our bodies, so may be the same for our spirits.

From your original questions, this means that our soul can still grow and changes while retaining some of it's original qualities, and it's identity.

==
At the same time, I guess it also may imply that we are not 'all equal'..? Some are more spiritually evolved than others?

[Nneka]

I'm not Steve, but here's my 2000 cents.

To start, I think of consciousness as all there is, was, and ever will be. In essence, it is God or Spirit.

* I always thought consciousness was a byproduct of the body, so I explained not being aware of anything before birth to not having a body. How does one explain "not having a beginning" within S/R? If I always were, then why don't I remember it?

Consciousness/God/Spirit does not have a beginning or end, but it chose to come into expression as you. Your body to consciousness is like you putting on your clothes in the morning and going out into the world if your clothes were integrated with your body. Like the suits in the movie Fantastic Four.

Some people do "remember", some of us don't. Different people remember to different degrees. Some people have a vivid memory of being pure consciousness, some don't. The other thing to note is that we are always pure consciousness in expression, it is who we are. The degree to which we are aware of this determines whether we "remember".

The other thing is that the word remember connotes a past, but there is no past. You are here now. Always in existence. I haven't figured out how to explain this yet, but it makes sense in my being.

* Consciousness controls the actions of all beings via the thoughts/beliefs it holds.. But it doesn't handle all the details? For example, if my consciousness intends peace, love and harmony for all, it doesn't have to spell out the procedure as to how this is going to be accomplished? Another aspect of this is, how does the belief of "people are untrustworthy" or "people are loving" manifest "exactly"? Who is handling the details? If the consciousness is handling them, then why am I not fully aware of all the details of what is being manifested?

Hmmm...it is not your consciousness that intends peace, it is you. Consciousness/God/Spirit is peace. What you are intending is to align yourself (your beliefs, your mind) with what already is. How much peace you manifest or experience is determined by how much you let pure consciousness express through you. AND you have a unique blend of experiences, skills, and talents that allow you to express and experience peace uniquely (the how). You are the filter, so to speak.

The same with love. Consciousness/God/Spirit is love. People are loving because they express Consciousness. Some people let it flow freely, some people block it. Some people are aware of letting it flow or blocking it and some people aren't.

I don't mean this in a doling out of inequities way or to sound superior. I truly mean that you might be coming into the awareness of consciousness at this time, but you may or may not have been a loving person. The difference is that now you are aware.

* I always thought the body experienced things which helped it grow. Now that this body is the same as all the other ones in a single unitary perspective, how can consciousness grow? Growth requires time and we just said time is within the consciousness container, so by definition, consciousness shouldn't be experiencing growth or learning... Why isn't the consciousness container all-knowing in the first place?

Ah, but it is! In fact it is all knowledge. Hence the saying, "there is nothing new under the sun."

You are here to express and experience Spirit. Growth the way we see it might be the progression of expressing more and more of it like Hawkins Power vs. Force scale.

I'm not sure that we have to progress in awareness, expression, and experience at all. It seems to me that babies express more of Spirit than adults. Some of us might realize that's what we want to do and how we want to do it, then start trusting, becoming aware, expressing, and experiencing gradually. But I don't think there's any rule that says that that's the way it has to be.

I'm grappling with that myself. My level of awareness, expression, and experience is determined by how much I trust or am open to it. Try as I might to be completely open, there are still parts of me that insist that it just can't be that way.

As a practical example, take money. I believe intellectually that Consciousness is infinite supply. However, I also harbour another belief, and I believe this viscerally because to me it is reinforced by my experiences. I believe viscerally that I have to put in a certain amount of work to get money.

I could have an epiphany and suddenly believe in my core that I don't have to any amount of work for money (I've done that a couple times in my life and it appeared from the ethers), or I could "grow" into the idea that there is indeed infinite supply.

It's not my consciousness that will be growing, it will be my capacity to express and experience it.

* Since I related my consciousness to a physical body (the brain to be specific), I kept thinking the body controlled what my consciousness could know/feel/perceive etc. If that is not so, then what does the "subconscious" have to do with anything? If the consciousness is all there is, then how come there are "background processes" that always run "seemingly outside of my consciousness" working against my intentions?

Nothing is outside of consciousness.

[skydust]

i am going to post the rest of the Q/A on consciousness from my guides as it seems to be relevant based on the questions that have popped up during the course of this discussion. take what you wish and leave the rest.


when we die, do we still perceive ourselves as single points of consciousness or do we unite with source?
--now you become single points of consciousness because you project this reality into the world.

so we are never actually single points of consciousness?
--thats right

when does this illusion end?
--its up to you

so can it continue for ever?
--if you wish it to

how do i end the illusion of single points of consciousness?
--by realising that your meaning is consciousness {you are comsciousness}

how?
--there is no how-to on this. set your intent.

so talking to you, i am in essence talking to myself? as in consciousness talking to consciousness?
--yes, thats correct.

doesn't this one consciousness get lonely?
--lonely is a perception, which you create.

so does that mean it doesnt exist?
--it exists.. if you want it to do so.

explain to me the idea of nothing.
--the role of nothing stems from the perception that existence {consciousness} stems from somewhere.

do you mean as a point in space and time?
--somewhere

also, according to my guides, and this is something i have difficulty accepting, there is no such thing as levels of consciousness. they say its merely an ego thing to be 'better than' others. i will paste it below:


there is no such thing as more or less conscious.

either you are conscious or you are not. there is no such thing as levels of consciousness, how can you be more or less not quite something. thats like saying round, or rounder. something is either round or it isnt.

levels of consciousness are merely the egos way of getting a share in the game, to make itself feel superior over those it considers to be on a 'lower' level of consciousness.

when you are aware that you ARE consciousness, that is when, and only then, when you are fully concious. before thaht, no matter how long youve been searching, or where you are in your development now, you are NOT conscious.*

ego doesnt like this obviously for it implies that it is no better than the drunken bum** on the street who has never devoted a thought to spirituality in his life. how can i be like that it asks, when i have spent so many years searching for answers?

*note that they previously defined conscious as being aware that you are consciousness.

** this is simply an analogy to illustrate that we are no 'better' than those we may look down upon, just because we have been on the path longer and learnt more lessons.

[Nneka]

You are here to express and experience Spirit. Growth the way we see it might be the progression of expressing more and more of it like Hawkins Power vs. Force scale.

I'm not sure that we have to progress in awareness, expression, and experience at all. It seems to me that babies express more of Spirit than adults. Some of us might realize that's what we want to do and how we want to do it, then start trusting, becoming aware, expressing, and experiencing gradually. But I don't think there's any rule that says that that's the way it has to be.

levels of consciousness are merely the egos way of getting a share in the game, to make itself feel superior over those it considers to be on a 'lower' level of consciousness.

WOW! Thanks Skydust :-)

[eternomi]

Originally Posted by Athena

wow very interesting point! So it seems like there's still some 'binder' or conglomerative force, in our bodies, so may be the same for our spirits.

This is the part that is challenging me. It is a chicken-egg problem.

If everything is within consciousness, why don't I remember before birth? The answers posted on here so far don't really answer this for me. "You are all knowing in essence" does not quite cut it for me. If I knew, I would know. If I don't, then I don't. It is that simple for me.

In a similar line of thought, let's consider the DNA. DNA is all-knowing with regards to your body. But some invisible force guides it to a point where you have individualized cells and organs that form the body.They all interpret the same DNA in a unique way and organize themselves into different structures. Just because each organ and each cell has the all-knowing DNA, does that mean they are really all-knowing themselves? Is unaccessed -therefore unknown- wisdom/knowledge/information really worth anything? Does a heart know what it is to be like a brain? Could it replace it? Could it ever become one? What made it into a heart in the first place? Will it ever learn how to access the DNA in a way to make a brain out of itself? Is it perhaps happy being a heart?

If, on the other hand, consciousness is within or the result of a body, does it ever become larger (metaphorically speaking) than the body? Can you ignore the body where the consciousness developed and say the consciousness envelops the body even though it came from it?

I don't quite buy the "you signed a contract and forgot who you are before you were born" deal. In such a rich environment (I am not talking just at the human scale), "recycling souls" seems very unlikely. I am more aligned with the "everything is created brand new, and never recycled" concept. I also don't buy into the "when you die, you will re-remember what you made yourself to forget". Dying can't be a simple cop out like that. If you want proof, birth into this body did not reveal anything we did not know earlier either! If dying is birth into another body, perhaps birth into this body was death from another one. Clearly the death/birth combo is no guarantee you will learn anything new when you are born to the other side although you will have new experiences for sure.

About people remembering their past lives.... My theory is that, the DNA stores a lot more information than we know how to decode. It is quite possible that generations worth of history is encoded there and some people knowingly or unknowingly manage to decode it and remember it as if it is their own history.. Well in a way, it is.. This of course assumes the "the body came before the consciousness" view.

[Rocket Surgery]

Originally Posted by outback

If everything is within consciousness, why don't I remember before birth? The answers posted on here so far don't really answer this for me.

I don't quite buy the "you signed a contract and forgot who you are before you were born" deal. In such a rich environment (I am not talking just at the human scale), "recycling souls" seems very unlikely. I am more aligned with the "everything is created brand new, and never recycled" concept. I also don't buy into the "when you die, you will re-remember what you made yourself to forget".

What is it about the movie analogy that you don't get??

You go to a movie. If they started the movie and didn't turn down the lights, everyone in the audience would start to complain because they know that it detracts from the experience to be reminded that they are sitting in a theater.

If someone's cell phone rings over and over, you get annoyed because it distracts you from the story and lessens the experience by once again pulling you out of the story and back to reality. The experience is less meaningful.

So MOST movie lovers are in agreement that the lights must be out, that everyone stop talking, and cell phones set to vibrate in order for everyone to get the most out of the film.

It's no different with physical universe lifetimes. We are all immersed in an illusory experience of our own creation; yet we play out our subjective illusions within the same "theater" -- the physical universe. In order for us to get the most out of each life lesson, we have to focus completely on the illusion. This is why it's so difficult to detect, communicate with, and/or travel to non-physical realms. To have provable evidence of existence beyond the physical would undoubtedly be a DISTRACTION to us, and hence detract from impact of our illusory physical experience.

And what would be better evidence that our physical lives are illusory than personal memory of past lives and our non-physical reality in-between them? There are too many distractions already just here in the physical universe that constantly try to pull our focus away from our life purpose. Your waking ego self may not understand the logic of this, but your higher self knows that your spiritual growth and evolution will progress much faster the more you can focus on each individual life lesson. Therefore, all of us, through our higher selves, agree to wear these "spiritual blinders" if you will, during our earthly lives in order to enhance the experience for the better.

Most people don't remember the first few years of their physical life, yet nobody questions whether or not they were born or existed during those years they cannot remember. Just because you don't remember something, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Neither does it mean the memories don't exist. People with amnesia are constantly blocking out memories for all sorts of reasons, and then re-remembering them for as many reasons more.

And what is so hard to believe about reincarnation? We mimic this process in our own educational system every day. Only instead of lifetimes, we call them "classes." Achieving new levels of enlightenment, we call "graduating" to a higher grade level. We don't think of students as being "recycled" through the school system. Even kids who must repeat a grade are not thought of in this manner. We all know that repeating a grade is because the student failed to meet certain goals required for advancement. By your thinking, we should simply throw such children out of school and fill their seat with new students every year.

Nor is there any reason why reincarnating souls and "new" souls cannot occupy the same universe. What is to prevent God from multiplying his consciousness ad infinitum in order to keep up with the need for new souls to inhabit a growing population of physical entities?

I would submit that you either need to be more open-minded to these concepts; or perhaps you're not quite ready to hear them, and should go and focus on your physical life for now rather than continue to go around and around in circles on sites such as this. One thing I can guarantee is that you won't find many people who have "bought into" these concepts showing up at "atheist" sites looking for others to talk them out of their current beliefs.

~ RS