Polyamory Update (Blog)

[Savage]

Use this thread to discuss the following entry from Steve Pavlina's blog:

Polyamory Update

[Gregorz]

Great to hear you're doing so well with the transition. I look forward to reading more updates about how it's going.

[davidclare]

is the most stupendous of all.

[-B-]

And again, hopefully before the topic goes too off-topic...

Polyamory and sex is like coffee and donuts. Not neccessary, requiste, or required, but sweet and fun nonetheless.

[Savage]

Although I'm still getting a trickle of negative feedback about going poly, I've little choice but to dismiss it out of hand because of the pattern it follows.

Anti-poly people express their fears and concerns but share absolutely no real evidence... some are quite vehement in their beliefs, but their arguments are based on conjecture and assumption, and usually their assumptions are wildly out of sync with the actual realities poly people deal with. It's obvious they really don't know what they're talking about because they haven't actually experienced it.

Pro-poly people, on the other hand, are sharing stories and advice based on their actual experiences, case studies of other poly people, resources, links, etc. They give us information that's rooted in real-world experience.

Even if we were totally undecided, it should be obvious which camp is being the most helpful in terms of steering us toward the truth and helping us avoid pitfalls.

Now if the anti-poly people would get their act together and share some actual information based on real-world experience, case studies of poly relationships that went awry, studies of the effects on children, etc., that could be helpful to us. But we can't give any serious weight to random conjecture and inaccurate assumptions from people who have zero experience with poly -- that sort of feedback just isn't meaningful, so all we can really do with it is ignore it.

So seriously, there's no point in telling us you're scared or frightened or that you predict doom and gloom unless you have something of real substance to share. All I do with that sort of feedback is hit the delete key.

On the other hand, the experiential advice and info is proving VERY helpful to us.

[straysweeper]

These two quotes are very poewrful to me right now. But in terms of other aspects of my life.

I’m so glad I don’t have a regular 9-5 job. If I did, it would likely have taken me months to get this far instead of just a couple weeks. I’m probably devoting 80-100 hours a week to this pursuit. It’s wonderful to enjoy sufficient freedom to pursue my passions at full speed.

I may not be a particularly private person myself, but I respect the privacy of others.

As I have opened more to my purpose, I think I can also apply more acceptance to Polyamory. Because through my that, I can see how things can be looked at in different perspectives. However, I'm still clinging onto a long held belief that there is someone out there for me to spend my life with. I am a romantic.

There was a study once about Voles I believe? Where one type is more likely to mate for life and another is more towards one night stands. I found this interesting because they likened this to a human males.

[Dan.Linehan]

@ Steve,

I'm not quite sure it's as cut and dry as pro-poly versus anti-poly. Personally, I would self-identify as post-poly, if anything.

I had assumed you and Erin were 'nogamous because you actively sought that lifestyle, because you consciously preferred it. It's a little strange to realize that wasn't the case.

Things are generally as sacred as people agree to make them. The feeling that something is scared between you and someone else can be nice. It's a simple choice to make, every bit as simple as the alternative.

After experiencing both sides, I'm far from being convinced that choosing nothing sacred is any sort of ideal..

[royalexander]

Hi Steve (and the rest of you folks),

Polyamory !!! you continue to be such a blessing Steve because you take almost every concern lingering in our minds that we're too scared to explore or try out ourselves and ginnie pig yourself with it. I feel spoilt by having it so easy ... but am not complaining. We should probably nicname you the "guinea pig of personal development".

Ok. Im at the moment married to a fantastic woman and have two adorable kids thru her. As time goes I question my monogamous relationship more and more - funnily it's neither because I could not sleep with other girls nor because Im bored with my wife but, on the contrary, in order to let my authentic love for her to surface. What I mean is - marriage is a contract and a norm and so it has rules that are legally and socially binding. No matter how u try it's hard not to be aware of them and the awaers distorts the relationship. And my personality is one that has allergies to rules. I amazing with a lot of things untill, they get a "supposed to do" status. As soon as what Im doing becomes an expectation and a "have to", I start hating it (that's another area I need help with). So I want to change that before this thing called marriage makes me hate my wife.

I am pretty sure that I have more love for my wife than Im able to feel now and not having the rules will let me feel it to the fullest (hopefully). My concerns are the following:

1. Being in an Indian community I will most probably face a lot of dissapproval from 90% of all the people I know !! I can tell myself Im brave but I love my folks a lot. I hate morality but it's hard to even begin telling them that without making them forbid their kids from ever talking to me. These guys don't mind lying on top of their wives fantasizing about another woman but they'll think polyamory is immoral !! Can I move to Vegas too

2. My children and I love each other very very much. I have dreams of seeing them thru adolescence and womanhood. It breaks my heart when I picture myself or my children not having 100% access to each other for any reason ... like having to depend on someone else's approval for it. My first daughter (3.5 years) and I give each other tight squeeze more than once a day which fills my heart! If that attachment dimishes by itself, that's fine. but if it has to be peeled out it'll be painful.


Roy - roy.alexander@gmail.com
(still thinking of a name for the menace between my legs)

[magi13]

It's a choice, ^^ if you like being in a polygamous relationship good for you. If there are others who choose monogamy good for them.


Respect each's view, baby steps.

I know I know, it's with consent that's why it's called polyamory. (many loves).

^^,

According to a study by Rubin and Adams in 1986 which found no differences in marital stability based on sexual exclusivity in married relationships.

[Peakmouse]

A very close friend of mine started exploring polyamoury (PA), giving all the usual reasons ... too much love ... normal relationships stifling ... why not a third way ...

She gave me nearly daily updates from her new 'community' and I went on to meet a lot of them. The reality is usually pretty sad.

First off, her world was suddenly full of new MEN - I found it telling that Steve writes at length about what HE wants and what would be good for HIM, and how this is about HIS focus and growth (yes, his marriage will benefit, too, from this new amazing way of relating to one another ... hm).

She dated some of these guys, who were married or in other relationships. Yes, sometimes their wives were 'understanding' (or probably scared witless on account of being economically dependent or trying to keep the family together). Good on them to at least be open about it, because lots of others weren't, but I see it doesn't apply in the present case.

But of most of the people I met there, even the ones that turned up with their TWO boyfriends for a party, there was always the third or fourth person lurking in the wings who visibly suffered. Don't fool yourselves.

I was quite disappointed to read the blog post, to be honest. Is it because I am a 'Puritan', or 'have issues'? I think it's for a reason that polyamoury is totally marginal and often ridiculed as opposed to, say, monogamy or even celibacy.

Monogamy might not work for all, but it's a great ideal, the best we can hope for. You write that you and Erin have a fantastic relationship, she's your best friend, you enjoy loving her, you have beautiful children.

And yet you seriously considered divorce because you have 'too much love' for one person?

I find this hard to believe. You seem to be one of the lucky few to have a magnificent long-term relationship - and you want to risk it all (because this is what is going to happen) instead of congratulating yourself for your obvious success and holding on to it for dear life, as your lovely wife so obviously deserves?????

I've seen quite a bit of pain with the PA malarkey. My friend gave up, disillusioned and a lot wiser. You will certainly manage to gain insights from the inevitable turmoil that will ensue if you go down that route, Steve. But this is not only about you.

Just some thoughts.

[Savage]

Originally Posted by royalexander

in order to let my authentic love for her to surface. What I mean is - marriage is a contract and a norm and so it has rules that are legally and socially binding.

Bondage can be fun... but not every minute of every day.

1. Being in an Indian community I will most probably face a lot of dissapproval from 90% of all the people I know !! I can tell myself Im brave but I love my folks a lot. I hate morality but it's hard to even begin telling them that without making them forbid their kids from ever talking to me. These guys don't mind lying on top of their wives fantasizing about another woman but they'll think polyamory is immoral !! Can I move to Vegas too

Yes, you can move to Vegas. We've got plenty of empty houses to choose from!

If your family doesn't approve, you can always grow a new one. It's more fun to be surrounded by people who accept you as you are. You can still love the people who don't accept you, but that doesn't mean you have to hang out with them. The whole judgment thing gets pretty boring after a while.

2. My children and I love each other very very much. I have dreams of seeing them thru adolescence and womanhood. It breaks my heart when I picture myself or my children not having 100% access to each other for any reason ... like having to depend on someone else's approval for it. My first daughter (3.5 years) and I give each other tight squeeze more than once a day which fills my heart! If that attachment dimishes by itself, that's fine. but if it has to be peeled out it'll be painful.

What happens there is largely your choice. It depends on whether you can love and accept your children unconditionally. If you can do that, they'd have no reason to reject you.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Peakmouse

A very close friend of mine started exploring polyamoury (PA)(

Hmmm.... my guess is that the "I have this friend, see..." type of feedback won't qualify for Steve and Erin as being "actual experience" or "case study" and will fall into the "hit delete" category.

[pyrogen]

I've seen this happen with a few poly couples.

They don't tend to leave the primary. If they wanted to leave the primary, they would have done that, or they would've subconsciously sabotaged the relationship with an affair or other such. Polies who are fairly mature can generally distinguish between the wish to leave the primary, and the desire to experience other relationships.

What often happens though is that they go through a poly period, often have renewed interest in the primary, and then end up choosing conscious monamory.

I've had curiosity about the poly lifestyle before, as a thought experiment more than as a serious pursuit (am now in a monogamous relationship). I think if I were to do it - hypothetically, of course - I'd want to be primary partners with someone first, and not be a secondary partner to anyone until I was no longer single, but hey, that's probably my own insecurity talking... I and lotsa other people don't want to come to an empty bed while our love interest ISN'T coming home to an empty bed.

Guess that's a reason I'm practicing monogamy with my partner...

[alan7388]

What often happens though is that they go through a poly period, often have renewed interest in the primary, and then end up choosing conscious monamory.

Which is a perfectly valid thing to decide... provided the person/people whom you experimented with get treated with proper respect and consideration in the breakup.

A lot of polyfolks have helped a mono person or couple explore their way into poly and then, after forming emotional bonds with them, got left in the lurch when the person or couple suddenly decided to go back to monogamy. Okay, broken hearts happen, that's life. But what rankles is when the mono person/couple just suddenly vanished, or broke it off with 2 sentences by e-mail, without at least the in-person-over-coffee explanation that I think any good person is due.

This is why you often hear longtime polys say, "I only date my own species." Meaning other experienced polyfolks, who (hopefully) won't do that even if the relationship has to end for some other reason.

[CelebritiCat]

I find it amazing that the two of you are willing to open yourselves to this kind of growth (and to the criticism that accompanies it). I spent enough years in religious bondage and a marriage that became a prison to know that free is the only way to live.

Most of us go through our lives with the brakes on. Our souls call for growth and expansion, but we ignore and repress those longings, because they go against the "rules" we have agreed to. It's a lot of work to drop our judgments, but they only serve to limit our freedom and our growth.

My view on humanity is that if we are living from the love that we truly are, we will do no harm to others. People can still hurt themselves using our behavior as an excuse, but that's their baby, not ours.

I think it is a wise and loving example you are setting in that you are continuing the open communication with one another, making sure that you are not leaving one another behind.

I think a lot of the reaction you are getting from others stems from the fact that they can't imagine themselves being okay with polyamory in their lives.

But those who have grown to the place of realizing that everything in this physical plane is temporary, and no one is really "yours" to claim, you can drop the attachments that create jealousy and hurt.

Enjoy your journey, and may you both be blissed beyond belief.

Cathy Elaine
Cultivating a Succulent Life
To Him

[Savage]

Originally Posted by Angela

Hmmm.... my guess is that the "I have this friend, see..." type of feedback won't qualify for Steve and Erin as being "actual experience" or "case study" and will fall into the "hit delete" category.

Yeah, the outside view of any relationship, poly or mono, tends to be very different from the inside view. This kind of info is usually too indirect to be useful.

[alan7388]

Good for you for looking and learning before charging in! This puts you in a top percentile for intelligence.

Opening ourselves to polyamory has released a tremendous amount of trapped energy from our marriage. Hidden resentments evaporated overnight. Our relationship feels stronger than it’s ever been.

Oh yes! Sometimes a marriage gets a lot healthier and happier just by going "theoretically poly" -- even though the right new person never shows up and the couple remains functionally monogamous forever. (A cynic might call this having your cake and eating it too: the gain without the risk.)

Erin and I have been spending a lot of time educating ourselves, partly by reading but mostly by communicating directly with happy, long-term polyamorists.

Have you two considered coming to the Poly Living Conference in Philadelphia at the end of February? It's very well run by people versed in the personal-development and personal-spirituality worlds. Attendance last year was about 100, about 1/3 newbies and 2/3 old hands, a good mix. I recommend it highly. Here's my writeup of my experiences and impressions at the 2006 conference. And here's how the Washington Post covered the one in 2008.

Cheers,

Alan M.

[Savage]

Originally Posted by pyrogen

What often happens though is that they go through a poly period, often have renewed interest in the primary, and then end up choosing conscious monamory.

I've read several case studies where this happened -- it was an understandable dynamic given the nature of those relationships.

I can't see this happening for me though. I doubt I'll ever want to return to monogamy long-term. It's possible I suppose, but this feels like a permanent shift.

[Savage]

Originally Posted by alan7388

Have you two considered coming to the Poly Living Conference in Philadelphia at the end of February? It's very well run by people versed in the personal-development and personal-spirituality worlds. Attendance last year was about 100, about 1/3 newbies and 2/3 old hands, a good mix. I recommend it highly. Here's my writeup of my experiences and impressions at the 2006 conference. And here's how the Washington Post covered the one in 2008.

I've thought about it, and I'd probably go if it was local, but I didn't get a good intuitive vibe off of it.

Right now we're getting great results by hanging out with experienced poly people who keep showing up in Vegas. We seem to be manifesting about as many as we can handle right now. I'm not sure what the poly conference would add to what we're already doing.

[bunnyman]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Now if the anti-poly people would get their act together and share some actual information based on real-world experience, case studies of poly relationships that went awry, studies of the effects on children, etc., that could be helpful to us.

Just to try to balance things out, I want to provide a case study involving children.

Scenes from a group marriage

To summarize: In the 1970s, a boy's parents go camping with another family, and the adults wife-swapped (or husband-swapped I suppose). Eventually they all moved in to one house. It was strange for the boy since no other families he knew did that. It was nice in some ways, because having extra "parents" and "stepsisters" around expanded his social network, and they liked each other. Unfortunately, it ended in two divorces. That was very sad for the boy, and for his mother. As an adult, he has no desire to follow in his parents' footsteps, but he can understand now why they chose their path.

I suppose the moral of the story is to never get a divorce, because it's bad for children? Or maybe, never cry in front of your children?

I don't have children, but I was one once. My parents are still married, so I can't really understand what this person went through. I do know that the worst times in my childhood were when my parents were yelling at each other, or at me. Some people say never fight in front of your children. That's probably a good idea. Even better, work out your issues calmly so that it doesn't have to come to yelling at each other at all.

So that's what can go wrong. Not one divorce, but two.

In my opinion, Steve and Erin can avoid divorce. Or at least, have the good kind of divorce, where there's very little fighting and the children won't feel like their world is coming apart. (Is there such a thing? I hope so.)

[CelebritiCat]

Originally Posted by CelebritiCat

I think a lot of the reaction you are getting from others stems from the fact that they can't imagine themselves being okay with polyamory in their lives.

But those who have grown to the place of realizing that everything in this physical plane is temporary, and no one is really "yours" to claim, you can drop the attachments that create jealousy and hurt.

Another thing that comes up for a lot of people in the process of considering polyamory is abandonment issues, which also comes back to attachments, along with judgments about what should have been.

But the truth is that people coming and going from our lives is a natural state of affairs. If we let go of the need to cling, then when someone needs to move on, they don't have to pry themselves from our clutching, bleeding fingers to do so.

Holding loved ones in an open hand means we lessen our pain and we don't have to suffer when the time comes to let them go. We will hurt, but we don't have to suffer. And the time will come to either let them go or leave them behind, either in life or in death.

I learned this lesson in the loss of two siblings - one at age 15 and one at age 34. Too young to die, people say. Nice sentiment. It just has no basis in reality.

[DreamSpace]

Hi Steve, thanks for sharing your Polyamory experiment with us, so we can live vicariously through you! I must admit that I thought you were going through a M.L. Crisis untill I read enough of your work to know that you are just experimental by nature and enjoy pushing the envelope of reality as we know it.

I was going to suggest you research Polygamist groups that have had success as there might be some relavent information to Polamory. I only came up with Bountiful B.C. (a morman offshoot in B.C. Canada) but they have a lot of issues so don't waste your time there.

One reason I thought you were having a M.L.C. is because I am having one that manifests itself through conflicting thoughts such as:

1) The desire to have relationships with other women besides my spouse.
2) The desire to be the best spouse and father possible.
3) The urge to put a bullet in my head. (Don't worry, I don't own a gun and I wouldn't actually do it, but life seems to realy suck at times when your 40 and the thought comes into my head when I let my guard down.

Do you have and tips on M.L. Crisis for those of us who are at that point???

The only advice I can think to offer you is to envision youself 50 years down the road. You are a old man and it is late in the evening. You have drifted off in your recliner while watching a holographic STNG episode. You feel a warm hand on top of yours and hear, "Steve, honey...It's late. Let's go to bed." She kisses your cheek and waves of love pulsate though your body. You slowly open your eyes, who do you see?

[MidasGirl]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

I can't see this happening for me though. I doubt I'll ever want to return to monogamy long-term. It's possible I suppose, but this feels like a permanent shift.

You'll be surprised how many other levels of growth are possible out there, including choosing to become asexual

[Erika Awakening]

hi Steve,

I really enjoyed meeting you in Las Vegas and I am so happy that you are talking openly about polyamory in your blog. I especially appreciate your emphasis on the non-sexual, emotional aspects of it, with sex being secondary to emotional connection.

I will be returning to your forum for sure.

a big hug to you,
Erika from Awakening from the Dream

[Peakmouse]

Originally Posted by Angela

Hmmm.... my guess is that the "I have this friend, see..." type of feedback won't qualify for Steve and Erin as being "actual experience" or "case study" and will fall into the "hit delete" category.

Angela, I hope that neither Steve, Erin nor any of you hangers-on believe this is a religious cult where outside opinions that don't conform to the decision already made are deleted by pressing a button?

Steve says that "Now if the anti-poly people would get their act together and share some actual information based on real-world experience, case studies of poly relationships that went awry, studies of the effects on children, etc., that could be helpful to us."

I have seen at least four poly relationships that did not just GO awry, but were awry by their very structure. My experience from talking to these people (and I don't know for the world of me why I should try out what so obviously doesn't work for a large majority) is that many are VERY happy with their lot, yes. Yes, but - and the 'but' is that those involved with them are not always.

That's just my point. I don't quite understand how non-direct 'experience' is per se useless.

By and large, Steve's mind has been made up already. Tellingly, he finds advice by 'pro-poly' people more useful.

In as far as we've been invited to contribute, I think it's a horrible idea. I don't think (not for religious reasons, mind) that there is anything 'BEYOND' monogamy, because it's the biggest challenge of them all, and apparently Steve has been gobsmackingly successful at it.

's what I think.

[Savage]

Originally Posted by Erika Awakening

hi Steve,

I really enjoyed meeting you in Las Vegas and I am so happy that you are talking openly about polyamory in your blog. I especially appreciate your emphasis on the non-sexual, emotional aspects of it, with sex being secondary to emotional connection.

I will be returning to your forum for sure.

a big hug to you,
Erika from Awakening from the Dream

Was great meeting you too, Erika.

I just spent the last 8 hours hanging out with Johnny, Violet, and the gang. We talked for hours about the connection between emotional intimacy and physical intimacy. No sleep tonight... and my brain is now ready to explode.

It's going to take a while to integrate all this stuff, but they've probably shaved months, if not years, off my learning curve.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Peakmouse

Angela, I hope that neither Steve, Erin nor any of you hangers-on believe this is a religious cult where outside opinions that don't conform to the decision already made are deleted by pressing a button?

I believe Angela was drawing an analogy to email there that Steve would "mentally delete" the message, not saying that disagreeing posts would be deleted from the forums. That's why she put "hit delete" in quotes.

This interpretation is supported by the fact that your dissenting message is still there.

BTW, if anyone cares, my opinion is that polyamory is just fine if you're emotionally mature enough to handle it (don't get jealous etc.). My guess is that Steve and Erin fall into this category.

Originally Posted by Peakmouse

I don't think (not for religious reasons, mind) that there is anything 'BEYOND' monogamy, because it's the biggest challenge of them all, and apparently Steve has been gobsmackingly successful at it.

I'm not sure why you see monogamy as "the biggest challenge of all". It doesn't take that much willpower to just not sleep with other people.

And if you mean to develop a deep, meaningful relationship with one person, it seems to me that having an equally deep relationship with multiple partners is an even bigger challenge (and not one I feel ready to tackle any time soon ).

[magi13]

Originally Posted by Peakmouse

A very close friend of mine started exploring polyamoury (PA), giving all the usual reasons ... too much love ... normal relationships stifling ... why not a third way ...

She gave me nearly daily updates from her new 'community' and I went on to meet a lot of them. The reality is usually pretty sad.

First off, her world was suddenly full of new MEN - I found it telling that Steve writes at length about what HE wants and what would be good for HIM, and how this is about HIS focus and growth (yes, his marriage will benefit, too, from this new amazing way of relating to one another ... hm).

She dated some of these guys, who were married or in other relationships. Yes, sometimes their wives were 'understanding' (or probably scared witless on account of being economically dependent or trying to keep the family together). Good on them to at least be open about it, because lots of others weren't, but I see it doesn't apply in the present case.

But of most of the people I met there, even the ones that turned up with their TWO boyfriends for a party, there was always the third or fourth person lurking in the wings who visibly suffered. Don't fool yourselves.

I was quite disappointed to read the blog post, to be honest. Is it because I am a 'Puritan', or 'have issues'? I think it's for a reason that polyamoury is totally marginal and often ridiculed as opposed to, say, monogamy or even celibacy.

Monogamy might not work for all, but it's a great ideal, the best we can hope for. You write that you and Erin have a fantastic relationship, she's your best friend, you enjoy loving her, you have beautiful children.

And yet you seriously considered divorce because you have 'too much love' for one person?

I find this hard to believe. You seem to be one of the lucky few to have a magnificent long-term relationship - and you want to risk it all (because this is what is going to happen) instead of congratulating yourself for your obvious success and holding on to it for dear life, as your lovely wife so obviously deserves?????

I've seen quite a bit of pain with the PA malarkey. My friend gave up, disillusioned and a lot wiser. You will certainly manage to gain insights from the inevitable turmoil that will ensue if you go down that route, Steve. But this is not only about you.

Just some thoughts.

They can decide by themselves and experience it the hard way. ^^ we can't decide for others but only point out the information. Who knows it may work out for them. If not well heck, haha lesson learned

[carenkh]

Originally Posted by Peakmouse

That's just my point. I don't quite understand how non-direct 'experience' is per se useless.

Because you know only what you saw, and what these other people told you. You don't know their entire history, why they made the choices they made, what they were *truly* feeling on the inside, etc. You aren't these other people. Someone relating their direct experience would be able to provide all of those aspects.

[magi13]

Originally Posted by carenkh

Because you know only what you saw, and what these other people told you. You don't know their entire history, why they made the choices they made, what they were *truly* feeling on the inside, etc. You aren't these other people. Someone relating their direct experience would be able to provide all of those aspects.

this is a good point to those who has not tried it yet. ^^, But at the same time those who have not tried it yet, can also trust themselves in their decisions. it's a double edged sword. Both sides have point. In the end only the persons who are considering this or in this practice can decide what to do.