Polyamory (Blog)

[Savage]

Use this thread to discuss the following entry from Steve Pavlina's blog:

Polyamory

[Bud921]

Steve,

This is a wonderful article. Being a 17 year old brought up believing marriage is the only way, I found this article very enlightening. As of now though I am still leaning towards getting married. I respect your decision greatly and love how you have the balls to share your experiences. I really hope this doesn't end up hurting Erin and the kids. I know, I know your going to say hurt it part of growing , which it is, but I just hope they will be spared. I'm certain your in this for the right reasons yet there is still some chance you could be kidding yourself IMO. Nonetheless I'm looking forward to reading more. Thanks for changing my life my friend. When I'm successful I'll owe it to guys like you.

-Bud

A Boundless World

[srujacobs]

I'm totally transfixed by this move, and I don't think that it has to end in failure. I as a woman often think that polyamory would be most preferable, though at the same time worry that A) that's having my cake and eating it too and B) it would too much destabilize my life. But I do wish this experiment luck, patience, and rewards.

one concern that I don't think Steve is fully acknowledging is the family concern. is it not inherently more risky and difficult to bring children into a poly relationship...there is such a thing as consenting adults, but shouldn't children have a say as to having two entirely focused parents? I think marriage isn't just as simple as law. marriage provides for the protected, concentrated upbringing of children. As a female my greatest concern is a promise on both parents' parts as to the providing of a stable upbringing. the institution of marriage is ripe for attack, but what about the more abstract institution of parenthood...?

p.s. I don't think Fred was boinking V and D in the back of the van...D's a lesbo. I also question this 100% straight thing...it seems as though that is a bit of a contradiction to the idea of expanding intimacy, and of it not all being about sexual attraction. I dislike the Game mentality and find it quite shallow and dehumanizing.

[Yynatago]

Hey Steve, I like how you've emphasised that you're doing this for yourself.

Having considered it for myself and deciding monogamy is the better option for me for quite sometime, I have a lot of respect for those who make polygamy work for them, especially if the focus is on having deep connections with many people.

I also believe a woman who’s open with her sexuality as a studette. I can imagine the t-shirts now, "Studette"

Regards,
Yynatago

[ericabiz]

Hi Steve,

I've been reading this with interest, but haven't been inclined to comment so far. In an earlier thread, you somewhat sarcastically asked us to make predictions, and I thought that would be fun, so here's what I have to offer.

In this blog post, you wrote: "With respect to physical intimacy, I’m only interested in connecting with women. That’s simply where my heart leads. ... In some ways the intimacy I share with men doesn’t go as deep as what I experience with women."

My prediction, based solely on my intuition (which previously has been uncannily right about you), is that this particular aspect will change dramatically for you as you go deeper into polyamory -- in ways you can't now foresee.

You're going to develop some amazing relationships with men through this, on a far deeper plane than you have yet experienced, and possibly far more intimate than you feel is possible right now. As you connect with women, so it will be with men.

This may be one of the biggest shifts you will experience through polyamory.

I look forward to reading more. Enjoying your blog, as always.

-Erica

[TonyToneTone]

Whoa! And I mean WHOA! First, let me congratulate you for your honesty. It takes real Courage, with a capital C to say and do what you're doing. SOOOO many of my friends who are married talk about this, but few of them actually go out and do it.

My first question is; 1) What is Erin's reaction to this?

&

2) How would you feel if Erin also becomes polymaorious? (sp)?

I am really looking forward to seeing how this all works out. For me, it's like I'm watching where my life could be in 10 years or so. Thank you.

PS - That MysteryMethod site actually has nothing to do with Mystery. They parted some ways ago.

[TonyToneTone]

Just noticed your answers. Here they are for anyone interested:
Polyamorous Relationship Q&A

[Dan.Linehan]

Read @ 11:11.

Should come to SF, would be interesting to meet you two.

[dandylion]

i didnt want to reply to this thread(and the ones your posted for this new year), but here goes anyways..

1. i dont think every person you encounter will have the same ideas as you re polyamory. a lot of people will still be into it for the free sex only.

2. you can bring in a lot of toxicity(not to mention VD) into your life.

3. i am not convinced that erin is comfortable with this.

4. the one thing that made you icky to me was not that you wanted to experiment with polyamory, but your choice to make it a blog post. not classy.

5. somehow i found your previous posts extremely juvenile and immature. like a teenager is going through a mid life crisis.

6. i feel that you have done a great injustice to erin..not so much in making this decision, but in letting everyone know about it. you have broken a very important rule in any relationship..you have destroyed what is sacred about trust. i am sad because i dont think you can ever fix this. regardless of how this experiment ends.

good luck.

p.s. forgive my ignorance, but whats with the 11.11 deal?

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by dandylion

p.s. forgive my ignorance, but whats with the 11.11 deal?

Just a good luck indicator for me. Lets me know it's all good.

[Jake Birkett]

Steve: Please post if you are ever coming to Seattle. I'd come down from Vancouver to visit if you were having a social event (of course you are welcome up here too).

[Peek]

Steve, wonderful how you bring this topic.
A lot of people, also your readers and maybe some opponents in this are polyamory anyway, I guess.

They just do not tell their spouse!

You on the other hand take matters in your own hands and tell your wife, your kids and the whole world you are going multi intimate.

And that upsets some readers, it makes me laugh out loud.
Thanks Steve. It is better then the 2008 going raw thingy.

[Stephen]

Not a lot to say really about this. Can I play Devils Advocate for a second and ask a few pertinent questions?

You have made a decision to break your marriage vows....maybe not in legal terms but in the spirit of things?

I think perhaps you might have conned your wife into thinking that this is a good thing for her too? Or perhaps she is desperate to hold onto you and is conning herself?

What about your children? Are you planning on giving your future son-in-law, on your daughters wedding night, advice to sleep around when things get a bit boring?

This is just so shallow and selfish. To discover that you are a slave to your base instincts is truly surprising.

My only regret is buying your book. It all seems so superficial now.

Have 'fun'.

[kathy29]

I read the original post, and the Q & A. I tried to read this post and just couldn't, the best I could do was to scan it.

Yesterday while I was composing my response in the 2009 Focus - Intimate Relationships (Blog) thread, I had Pandora.com playing. Fleetwood Mac Dreams by Stevie Nicks came up.

Now here you go again
You say you want your freedom
Well who am I to keep you down
Its only right that you should
Play the way you feel it
But listen carefully to the sound
Of your loneliness
Like a heartbeat.. drives you mad
In the stillness of remembering what you had
And what you lost...
And what you had...
And what you lost

There's nothing new in what you're doing, the only part new or different is publishing your intentions on a blog. I see you've covered the point about people will be hurt. Really, you have no clue what you're about to set in motion.

Keep in mind that my kids share much of my DNA. First, that alone should scare you. Secondly, if you try to convince them they’re going to be damaged by my choices, they’ll just laugh at you. Then my son will proceed to kick your butt at Halo, after which he’ll give you a very loving hug to cheer you up.

WTF is that???? that alone should scare you Is your true nature peeking through here? SCARE me???

The whole thing is presented in new age terminology as if to say, "Well if you can't handle it, you're so repressed" News flash, it's all been tried before, different decades, different terminology.

So Erin agrees. Yeah, like there was much choice available to her. You already threatened her with divorce multiple times. All she can do is say yes, and hope for the best.

We sometimes think we understand ourselves and express ourselves adequately. We are often mistaken. We think we know what we want, but later on find out how wrong we were. We think we have communicated well, but later on find out we were only saying what we mistakenly thought was our intended point, when we didn't even know all that was behind it. We think we have considered all aspects of a decision only to have reality to slap us in the face, hard, showing us how inconsequential our shallow deliberations were, and how little we understand existence.

So you believe you've thought this through. You believe you've communicated fully with Erin, and you believe you incorporated love and respect in this communication. You believe you have received an honest and thoughtful response from Erin. You believe you've considered the effect on your children.

You could be mistaken on any of these points. I'm quite confident you are wrong about how your kids will be affected. So you've had clarity come to you recently. I have no confidence that the juice fasting inspired clarity is accurate. I know you currently think it is.

Whatever you do has consequences, often unintended consequences. You have no idea what will happen next. And because you are operating on an overly *optimistic and **simplistic view of how this ***will all work***, it's quite likely that some of the consequences will be negative, and could be much more negative than you would like.

We set things in motion, and watch helplessly as the energy takes it's own path.

*The kids will be fine
**Erin said it's OK
***Love should not be restricted

You throw words around all to easily. love, smart, truth, etc. I suggest instead of a 30 day program of heightened physical intimacy, you try a 30 day period of meditation and muteness.

[Scipio]

Steve,

I'm 21 years old and fortunately I was exposed to different views on relationships because of the internet ever since I started dating. I'm involved in some great mLTR's (multiple long term relationships) where I am completely open with the women that I am seeing others. I am able to love each woman for her own unique strengths and each provides me different inspiration. I, like you, am after deep connections, and not just physical pleasure. I think that at least in the place I am at in my life, and with the girls I'm seeing--all are extremely busy, productive women who can't share every day with me, they are working on their life purposes--that mLTR's are the best way to go right now. I also love monogamous relationships too and those have worked for me at certain times.

I think at least when you are young and you are exploring what you want and what you like in relationships, mLTR's are a great way to expand that growth.

[Byron]

Why all of these negative and self-limiting beliefs?
None of this is ultimately true, even from an objective point of view.

And, if you really subscribe to subjectivity 100%, then why are you putting these limiting things into your belief system, and teaching it to others as well?

Anyone who wants to live consciously must accept that getting battered and bruised is part of the game of life. It happens.
...
I know that life will keep knocking me down again and again. And each time I’ll get up, dust myself off, and tend to my wounds. Then I’ll say in my snarkiest tone, “Nice try, Life. Is that the best you can do?”

I know that by exploring polyamory, there’s a good chance that someone I’m involved with will feel hurt at some point. Maybe me. Maybe Erin. Maybe others. Maybe all of us.

We’ll see how far I can get before I’m assassinated.

As I noted in my book, it’s not remotely easy to keep shifting into ever-greater alignment with these principles

The overall tone and energy of this article feels lower than normal, like you are speaking from your mind or lower energies rather than higher source. Did you eat something cooked? Or not get enough sleep?

[Byron]

Btw, I see how those who are open to this naturalistic idea are curious and exploratory.


Those who oppose it are often violently so, and out of fear and the need to adhere to mass conformity, no matter how broken it is.


It is a natural instinct for masses to 'normalize' or neutralize behavior, including when it comes from free thinking and independent people. The herd wants to keep it as one, and fears when another sheep strays.

But when the 'norm' and the masses are deluded, this kind of thinking is damaging for the whole.


Let the explorer explore, and the leader lead. He knows what he is doing.

[AlwaysLearning]

As a former pickup-artist (and someone who never knew anything about how to get a girlfriend before I entered the seduction community), the articles here lately have been like opening presents on Christmas morning, time and time again. I'm literally pumping my arms with excitement here!

If anyone wants to read about my time in the seduction community, here you go:
My Time in the Seduction Community

[Bud921]

New title for your next book.


STEVE GONE WILD

Intro to Polyamory

[Fortune]

Hi Steve,

I don't know if this question has already been asked, but I didn't read anything about it in your recent blog posts:

Would you father children in any polyamorous relationship outside of your current marriage with Erin? In other words: would you make new babies?

I'm curious what your thoughts are on this.

[Momorune]

Dear Steve,

I just want to say that I don't disagree with people's right to share their bodies with whomever they please. Even in a marriage. People have a right to learn their lessons, their way. I have definitely done my share of that . After holy-whoring my way around 4 continents (and some islands), I have come to a point where I realized what lessons I had to learn from that phase of existence and am happy to move on. As is common with lesson-learning, you often wish you had got the point sooner.

That said, I do think this recent blog post is covering a heck of a lot of material in one blast. Don't you think, if this is to be a true learning experience, you should handle people's feedback with a little more compassion and seriousness? BOTH the people who agree with you and those who disagree are writing from their truth. It doesn't help if you come out of the gate with a lot of negative views about anyone who disagrees with you, judge them, and just stomp on off down the path you were going to walk anyway. You are not the only smart, high-vibration person around.

A truly strong, courageous and smart person is steady enough to seek the truth even at their own expense. Snark might drive away the people who are challenging you, but it definitely doesn't establish any measure of truth. My request to you would be, take the time to go over the comments you have recieved again. Journal thoughtfully and compassionately about each one - and try to keep in perspective just how little you actually know about all of us (we have read a lot on your life - but you have a lot less information on us). While doing this practice, try to let go of the outcome. That is, seek the truth without being hung up on how it affects your Poly Plan. The better you are at letting go of the outcome, the deeper you will go into truth and healing.

If the way points to Poly at the end of this process, you will be endowed with more serenity as you walk that path. If not, well, what's the big deal? More important than the power to will something into existence is the path. If you have read the book the Neverending Story, you might resonate with the comparison of yourself to Bastian and his wishes. Bastian is given the power to create whatever he wants. The problem is, there are some deeper wants that drive him, that he doesn't even know how to articulate let alone manifest. Like every archetypical Hero, he must go through a period of metaphorical death where his identity and ego are destroyed so that he can be reborn. What does that mean in relation to you and your life? Only you know.

I wrote earlier about my path through puberty and the loss of my true self through identifying with the woman I saw through other peoples' eyes. Men, women, and couples came to me asking for connection to something I had - but thinking that they had to connect with me physically to get it. I would have happily given it to them without any sort of sensual reward system, but that was not in their universe. In a world where everyone lived by the principle that we are all family and we all deserve love and connection without having to do anything but be our true selves, this sort of self-imposed emotional poverty would not exist. (addendum to the poly-family folks out there, I think it's important to have family that you don't have sex with. Thank goddess for Love that I don't have to open my legs for).

I experienced the opposite of what you say about yourself: Getting married and taking sex out of the equation for the majority of my relationships actually promotes my ability to connect deeply and intimately. To be honest, I am constantly astounded that people don't realize how much injury they do each other's spirits with superficial judgements based on a limited, individual view of reality. I experience that often on many levels. For example, people often use me as a screen to project their racial fears or loves on. According to what race they want to see, they assume that I am Mexican, South American, Arab, Native American, Italian, French, Persian, Indian, or Maori, just to name the most common. I am none of those things! The problem with sex as a way of deepening relationships is that empirically it is not the deciding factor of intimacy. If someone wants to believe I'm a Maori, they're going to believe it whether or not we ****. Which leads me to believe that you need sex to partner intimacy because it is too scary for you to have intimacy without sex.

What?? Isn't sex scarier? No. Sex is totally just a bodily function. It happens to also add an element of control and security to relationships through its biochemical function of bonding. The hormone oxytocin is released in both men and women during orgasm. Apparently it is released more in the female brain. It is also released during childbirth and nursing. Oxytocin causes the neurons in the brain to release old connections and form new ones, effectively wiping out past memories and conditioning and forming a new attachment to the present experience. This means that sex causes a chemical dependence on that PARTICULAR partner. If that's not a control mechanism, I don't know what is.

Without an Oxytocin dependency, an intimate person could potentially walk out of your life based on rational choice. And that might be too scary for you, Steve. You wrote about feeling emotionally detached from your children because you didn't know if you would be there with them much longer. How is that for some fear-based decision making? You might as well distance yourself from them because you might have a car accident tomorrow. Those kids need your love no matter where you are on this planet or who you are ****ing. You cannot let the fear and guilt associated with loss stop you from your cosmic responsibility to love them. You have also written about your emotional distance from your birth family. I have that too, and please don't try to tell me that it has not caused you some high levels of distress at some point in your life.

Erin wrote that you told her "you don't know how to love" at the beginning of your relationship. You are a precious, irreplaceable part of the Universe, Steve. I just want you to hear that from me. You matter, irregardless of whether you have sex with the People's Republic of China or never have sex, write, work out, or earn another penny ever again until you die. The Universal Consciousness will always love you and accept you, it will always be there for you, it will always protect you, it will always need you, it will always care what happens to you. You are meant to be here. I don't care what anyone says. Please accept this as the truth.

blessings
Malian

[happymomof2]

Hi Steve,

Just one comment on the "understanding women better" sentence in your latest blog.

From everything I've read (and I have not yet read The Game but have some knowledge of it), it seems the type of woman who responds to PUAs are women lower on the vibrational scale. A self-confident, self-aware woman would run from this type of guy.

It seems PUAs are most interested in succeeding with women whom they desire, firstly and primarily physically, and then they employ methods to have that physical attraction reciprocated.

Let's just get some things straight here:

PUA's are looking to bed hot babes, not women like Oprah, Maya Angelou, and other strong, inspiring (but not traditionally good-looking women), who may turn out to have other wonderful inner qualities.

Again, the physical attraction is driving the initial relationship. (I do know that you, Steve, would need more depth beyond the initial physical attraction to sustain the relationship.)

All this is fine, and I think the points you state on your blog make clear intellectual sense. However, on a gut, intuitive level, something still bothers me. I can empathize with your desires to go polyamory, but something holds me back (other than strong societal pressure which is indeed strong).

It almost seems like the too easy path to take (other than, again, strong condemning societal pressure). Sure, who wouldn't want to develop intimate, physical relationships with anyone they desired as long as it was mutual? AND to have a spouse or significant other who was totally okay with it? Really, where's the challenge, the growth in taking this path?

The point again is that it's the desire to bed the woman that first drives a PUA. And then if she turns out to be smart, kind, spiritual, etc., then wow, what a bonus and then the potential for a great relationship!

It's fine to try the path and then find later that it might not have been the best decision. You're definitely of the ilk who needs to learn things through direct experience. (So probably am I).

I think I would have liked to see you use your well-developed self-discipline muscles to channel your strong desires/urges in a more societally beneficial way. That would have modeled something more positive to me. (Sorry to hold you to Gandhi-esque standards!)

[Bliss Sage]

I didn't make it through the entire blog post, I'll admit, and didn't even read all the thread posts, but I just scanned for a word from Erin, as I was wondering throughout my reading what her thoughts and feelings were (now I know, it was exactly as I predicted ).

I wondered if Steve will be getting a divorce, if he has stopped loving Erin, since he mentioned the part in their wedding vows about being together as long as their love lasts... And if Erin is going to seek multiple partners.

I am baffled as to why people think you can't love everyone and live in Oneness when you are married. Eckhart Tolle wrote that you love and can live in Oneness, just that the degrees of love and closeness will vary. And a Oneness form of love is not the same kind of love as the romantic love, because it's not as close or intimate as the romantic partner. And what has sex to do with Oneness? If you really did this all for the sake of Oneness, then you would not only practice sex with one gender or certain people, you would be open to it with any human. Oneness does not mean having sex and sharing the most intimate emotional and physical bonds with every person on the planet, or even many of them.

[jawillie]

Some readers still want to act like this is something necessary in order to be "conscious" and living with truth, love and power.

You do NOT need to explore polyamory in order to "prove" you are "conscious."

Just because a couple chooses monogamy does NOT mean they are living a lie. And every couple who chooses this does NOT end up cheating on their spouse in private. But those for polyamory seem to hold on to that justification with all their might.

I don't care that Steve is going down this road, I just don't want readers automatically assuming this is a "higher level of living" or some other junk like that. I realize some of you have not seen a normal, loving monogamous relationship. They do exist. They do NOT all end up with someone cheating.

I also agree with those that pointed out "oneness" doesn't mean having sex. I just don't buy any of the justifications for this way of life. I think the REAL truth is that it feels good. Period. It feels good to be wanted and lusted after by someone new. It feels good to have someone new interested in you and want to get to know you like your wife can't anymore because she already knows you. It feels good ~ it's not about "spreading love" or "oneness." Nothing wrong with doing what feels good, but lets not paint it like it's some grand thing about oneness and living consciously.

[nique]

There's hurt (or the potential for hurt) no matter what decision Steve makes. Staying monogamous won't fix the problems he has with monogamy since he sincerely believes that monogamy is the problem. Going the polyamorous route will either be the right thing or it will highlight what's wrong with his ideas about relationships or both. As long as everyone's courageously honest, this will be a good thing.

For an analogy, it's like someone who believes he has a broken car. The car may be broken or it may be that the owner is doing something to sabotage the car (lets say driving with the air-conditioning on full blast while driving up a mountain). If it's the car that's broken (monogamy) then getting a new car (polyamory) may fix the problem. If it's the person that's broken then the new car will break too for the same reason. Ideally in the second case the car-owner doesn't just blame bad luck, which sadly often happens. But even if he does blame bad luck, the string of broken cars and people yelling that maybe he should turn the air-conditioner off should eventually get through.

[Erin Pavlina]

I think we need to all take a deep breath here. I'm seeing a lot of conclusions being drawn on false assumptions.

1. Steve is very loving towards our children and cares about them deeply. We haven't told the kids anything yet because we haven't fully explored polyamory yet. When we have something to tell them, we'll tell them.

2. I appreciate that everyone is concerned about me but please don't be. Steve does not desire an end to our relationship. He's still very connected, loving, intimate, kind, etc with me. We discussed this before he posted it publicly so it wasn't some big surprise to me.

3. We're not saying you have to be polyamorous to be high awareness. We're interested in exploring polyamory to see what it's all about. Neither one of us has drawn any conclusions about it because we haven't experienced it yet.

4. Discussing this publicly is our way of connecting to people in the polyamory community who can help us navigate our way through it. Being open, honest, and congruent is important to us which is why we wanted to share our plan on the blog, so people who ARE interested can learn with us as we go.

5. Polyamory is not the only thing Steve's going to be blogging about this year. He's just letting you know it's his focus, just like health and going raw was in 2008.

6. Don't panic. Stay calm. The earth is not rotating off its axis.

7. And yes, I'm prepared to leave the relationship if I'm no longer happy with it. I always have choices.

[JimOfferman]

Funny how people tend to vehemently oppose change in the life of others. I received a lot of flack when I decided to pursue music. Lots of fear based responses. Ironically, some of the biggest nay-sayers turned into the biggest believers in me once they saw how committed I was to this path and how much I am growing because of it.

I have absolutely no interest in polyamory myself, but I totally understand how you, Steve, would grow from this and I'm looking forward to learning what I can from your experiences (as always).

Just don't take all the cute highly conscious women down this path with you, will ya?

[Apollia]

Originally Posted by The blog post

The problem with marriage is that it pushes relationships into the realm of law, and that’s a huge no-no because that runs contrary to conscious choice. Just to be clear, I’m referring to legal law here, not divine law. Coupled with societal pressure, marriage applies an inappropriate form of force to relationships.

I totally agree. Marriage (especially without a prenuptial agreement) can actually be dangerous to one's liberty and property, at least if you get divorced and can't pay your child support. People who can't pay child support can go to jail, and lose driver and professional licenses.

Also, child support payments can be so high that no matter how high your income is, you might not have much left to live on after you're done paying child support and taxes. (Legally up to 65% of your paycheck can be garnished for child support - source for this info: Compliance Assistance Employment Law Guide - Wage Garnishment ).

If I'm not mistaken, divorce can also lead to loss of property such as a house the marriage partners shared, etc., which could end up belonging to one partner or the other.

And, worst of all, you can get separated from your children and only able to see them infrequently because often the mother is awarded more custody rights than the father.

Here's a decent starting point for people to learn about how broken and destructive the child support system is in the United States (and, if I'm not mistaken, there are similar problems in other countries): Proposed Budget Cuts in Child Support Enforcement Funding - Nov. 17, 2005 Position Statement - National Family Justice Association (NFJA)

Not only does the child support system cause tons of damage to families across the country, the government (unsurprisingly) wastes billions of dollars on it.

In my opinion, there are way too many laws related to divorce, alimony, child support and custody, etc. that need to be reformed or scrapped entirely. If I were a man, I would avoid marriage like the plague. Even as a woman, I want nothing to do with all the legal nonsense.


Part of the reason my life went so awry was because of my step-dad's evil ex-wife draining our family of money she and the children didn't even really need, judging by all the Gucci bags, furniture, and the BMW she bought.

I'd say more but I don't want my family to get upset with me for going into too much detail about private matters on the internet. I will say, though, that I think my step-dad's ex-wife really deserves more blame than even my credit card companies for financially ruining me.

I also blame the child support system and court system for not caring that draining money from my step-dad's family with his second wife was hurting the two children in my step-dad's family - me (a teenager at the time) and my much younger little sister.


Even avoiding marriage isn't a certain way to avoid getting ensnared. I think if I were a man I would be very nervous about having much involvement at all with women, simply because of the problems that can result from an unintended pregnancy, or worse, a pregnancy deliberately induced by a scheming gold-digger who wants to entrap a man into being legally bound to pay child support to her.

Another problem is paternity fraud. If I understand it correctly, in paternity fraud, a woman can name anyone she wants as the father of her child, and, if he doesn't contest the paternity within a certain amount of time, a default judgment might result and he'll have to pay child support, and apparently in some cases, even DNA tests proving he isn't the father don't free him from the obligation.

Just some potential problems to be aware of. Other than STDs, I would be most worried about gold diggers.

Other than that, though, polyamory sounds like fun to me (though I doubt I'm going to end up trying it in the future, since I've had too many issues with jealousy in the past). I hope everything goes well.

I assume that Steve and Erin are both excellent judges of character, with excellent taste, since they chose each other. So, I think that should help a lot as far as minimizing the chances that a gold digger might insinuate herself (or himself? It's harder for me to think of a way for a man to successfully gold-dig, though) into their lives.

Best wishes,
Apollia

[jawillie]

However, in the long run, it’s very easy for marriage to become a consciousness-lowering bugaboo. Of the very conscious people I know who are married, I think their growth would likely accelerate if they stopped being married, myself included.

This is the statement that loses me.

I am not speaking to Steve here, just generally, as I have no doubt Steve and Erin are going about this at a highly conscious level for them. But, I don't want that above statement to limit married people into thinking their only choice is to stop being married in order to grow spiritually or any other way.

You can't blame anyone or any thing outside of yourself for your own inability to grow. Everything you need is within yourself. It's not the job, it's not the marriage, or the financial issues. It's YOU. If I am stuck, spiritually, it is not Dave's fault.

Marriage CAN BE a wonderful way to lead to growth. Just like polyamory CAN BE. It is all in how YOU use it, though. It's not the situation itself, it's YOU.

I just felt the need to say that. I am not against anything Steve is doing, I am just passionate about it being clear people understand it's not marriage that causes lack of growth, it's the people in the marriage.

Edit to add: Also, the reasons Steve listed in Truth, Love and Authority are HIS reasons. That should be obvious, but again, I feel compelled to state it. When my husband and I went through our reasons they were pretty much 100% opposite of Steve's reasons. His reasons are not universal laws. I know Steve knows that, just want to make sure others know that too.

[AlwaysLearning]

Originally Posted by happymomof2

From everything I've read (and I have not yet read The Game but have some knowledge of it), it seems the type of woman who responds to PUAs are women lower on the vibrational scale. A self-confident, self-aware woman would run from this type of guy.

It seems PUAs are most interested in succeeding with women whom they desire, firstly and primarily physically, and then they employ methods to have that physical attraction reciprocated.

Let's just get some things straight here:

PUA's are looking to bed hot babes, not women like Oprah, Maya Angelou, and other strong, inspiring (but not traditionally good-looking women), who may turn out to have other wonderful inner qualities.

You are falling prey to a very common misconception, in short: "DRRRR, Hot chicks R stupid!!! LOL"

A lot of girls who are commonly thought of as "ditzes" are actually very intelligent, and that's one of the good things you learn by being in the seduction community. In fact, I'd say the majority of them are smarter than they're often given credit.