2009 Focus - Intimate Relationships (Blog)

[kathy29]

There's nothing original, unique, special, or enlightened about your decision. It's all been done before. Free love, open marriage, wife swapping, etc. You are not especially brave or overly conscious for telling your wife, it's gotta be my way or divorce. I'm getting old, and thinking about this, I recall several instances in my life either experiencing some variation on the theme myself or being a close observer to it. None of these experiments ended on a happy note.

In my case, my husband of 11 years instigated it, I didn't really have a choice, because he had his mind made up (sound familiar?). OK, so it wasn't too complicated for us, we both had jobs, cars, and no kids. My husband went his way, and I mine. When he realized I had found someone, despite it being his idea, despite him thinking all would be fine, (share the love, right?), he went nuts. He took my phone book, called EVERY MALE in the book, subjected each to a quiz, and then proceeded to threaten every one. Our marriage disintegrated soon after.

My sister, and a very close friend both tried having an open marriage. I recall my brother in law being outraged that my sister would consider a relationship with someone he thought was beneath them. I guess it was open but he was supposed to be allowed to screen her potential new friends. Both of the experiments ended on a sour note. Neither of them would discuss it with me. Both said something like, "Oh that's over now" and refused to discuss it further.

Friends decided that swapping would be fun and harmless. But wife a and hubby b decided they wanted each other, permanently, leaving hubby a and wife b hurt and alone. Not to mention the kids.

You think a little hurt will be OK, people heal you say. But you are deciding for other people that their being hurt is OK. Some people never fully recover from these kinds of hurt. Some people carry scars for life. Some people become so unglued they commit suicide.

New agey, spiritually conscious blather doesn't alter the fact that you told your wife essentially that you WILL get what you want, either within the marriage, or through a divorce if she forces it. Nothing new or courageous about it. It's an old story.

There's entirely too much talk about Steve, and too little about the kids. A sure sign of selfish plans.

[Radactrice]

I've finally read all the comments on this topic and spent some time thinking about why Steve's decision to go poly has been rumbling around my mind these past few days. (Now I suppose I should spend some time trying to figure out why I feel the need to share MY thoughts on HIS blog!)

I've been a long time reader of Steve's ideas and while I've not felt the need to emulate him, I have found his thoughts challenging and his writing engaging. His positive energy was always inspiring. However, when I read his August 8 post which talked about his starting (or not starting) a personal coaching business, I had an odd feeling. There was something in the tone that $500/hour would be much too low of a rate for him to bother with which set off a previously unexperienced flicker of hestitation in my mind. It wasn't the per hour rate since I'm sure he could charge $1000 or even $5000 a hour and still find sufficient takers, but it was something in the tone and attitude. I perceived a certain, for want of a better word, egoism that I had never noted before. Since I don't pretend to be operating on nearly as high a level of consciousness, I assumed the problem lay with me, not Steve. (And, indeed, it probably does lie with me.)

Over the last several months, that tone began creeping into more and more of the posts, so that when he revealed his decision to go poly, it wasn't suprising. His decision is very egoistic--which is not to assign a moral value to it. It may be a highly moral decision...or not. But moral or not, it is based on a very "I want, I need, I will have" mentality.

Which brings me to the reasons that his decision seems to have bothered me.
First, one comment in particular clarified what I was feeling. If you have a perfect relationship that is unifying on all levels--physical, emotional, spiritual, intellectual--then the pinancle of that relationship is that you either have to end it or introduce someone else into it? Happily ever after with your soul mate has to end in the decision to have sex with other people? I found that idea very sad.

Second, Steve speaks about the poly lifestyle as if once he has experienced it, it will be a major positive growth step that he will not regret and that will not result in any loss. My difficulty with that is that he has not yet experienced it, so he can't speak with such authority on the positivity of it. Perhaps it will be the best decision of his life. Perhaps it will bring his relationship with Erin to levels neither of them imagined. Perhaps it will help his children become enlightened, creative and more loving. Or not. Wanting to experience this and waiting to see the outcome--good, bad or indifferent--is one thing. Talking about it as if it were a fait complet necessary step to greater consciousness before you've experienced it feels a bit, dare I use the word, egoistic?

Finally, I didn't do a statistical count, but it seems to me that the majority of the people who are supporting this decision are those who have considered becoming poly, but haven't actually done so. Certainly there are some respondents here who are poly and their words carry the weight of experience, but it the lack of negative feedback from those who have been or are poly made me wonder. It seems there are three possiblities:
1) Everyone who experiences the poly lifestyle finds it positive. (Highly unlikely)
2) Everyone who experiences the poly lifestyle and reads Steve's blog finds it positive. (Possible.)
3) Everyone who experienced the poly lifestyle and reads Steve's blog and found it a negative experience doesn't want to talk about it. (Probable.)

My real question is that if Steve finds the poly life to be negative, detrimental and destructive, will he admit it since he seems to be going into it with the preconceived notion that it must be the next necessary growth step in his life and therefore whatever comes will be wonderful? And if it does turn out to be negative, will it be possible to rebuild the idyllic existence he now has with Erin and his children?

[mattmcc]

Originally Posted by nownow

How much of Steve's creativity and drive have arisen from this need which was not fulfilled? I suspect a lot. I don't think that it is a coincidence that this decision was made after his latest trial ended early; it signalled the end of trying to fight the inevitable by force of will. This is a Freudian type analyses and a simplification I know.
I think this new way of life will lead to a huge drop in energy and creatvity and a shift in what personal devlopment means to him.

I'm actually interested in what Steve thinks of this. Napoleon Hill in "Think and Grow Rich" talks about Sex Transmutation being the art of channeling your sexual energy into other pursuits. In the book (as I recall), Mr. Hill writes that most men experience their greatest achievements in their 30s-40s because their sexual drive is still high but, being married, they no longer have to waste that energy chasing girls. That energy ends up being used for more creative works. I have also read similar things elsewhere.

As Steve goes along with this, I would really be interested in hearing his perspective of whether increased sexual opportunity correlates with a reduction in creativity.

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

If you want to test yourself, then make a prediction about what you think will happen over the course of the next year. Let's see how accurate your predictions turn out to be.

I don't have any predictions on what will happen to your marriage. I'm just mainly interested. But my prediction is that Erin will lose weight as now there is competition.

[wachusettgirl]

Originally Posted by mattmcc

I don't have any predictions on what will happen to your marriage. I'm just mainly interested. But my prediction is that Erin will lose weight as now there is competition.

Oh my God, this statement made my stomach turn. Erin is an incredibly beautiful woman.
The traffic and attention about this topic tells me what I already know, sex sells... feed people's fantasies, be controversial and you will attract more attention and (in the blog and book selling world) therefore be more successful. I'm not among those who are going to congratulate you for being "open and honest" sharing your private life with the public. However I will concede that you are pretty damn good at knowing what people like to read about. Personally I've always had an admiration for celebrities that protect their loved ones, and keep their private lives private. I think that shows more class and "personal development" than anything.

[lasti]

Originally Posted by wachusettgirl

I'm not among those who are going to congratulate you for being "open and honest" sharing your private life with the public. However I will concede that you are pretty damn good at knowing what people like to read about. Personally I've always had an admiration for celebrities that protect their loved ones, and keep their private lives private. I think that shows more class and "personal development" than anything.

As if Erin had a problem with publicity... Why should Steve "protect" her from that? When I read her blog, I get the impression that she is a pretty tough lady, fighting astral vampires with her light sword, if she has too.

[lasti]

Originally Posted by mattmcc

But my prediction is that Erin will lose weight as now there is competition.

So your world is like that: Other people are driven by egoistic instincts, like competitiveness, in order to get outcomes you'd prefer!?

[Megan]

http://quarkscrew.files.wordpress.co...otfoolzero.gif

In the Tarot, cards like The Magician or The Hermit can often stand for the Querent or for someone in the Querent's life. The Fool, however, almost always stands for the Querent alone, no one else.

In standing for the Querent, the Fool represents a time of newness, a time when life has been "re-started" as it were. The person feels that they are back at zero, whether that be in romantic affairs, or career, at their job or intellectual pursuits.

Far from being sad or frustrated, the Querent feels remarkably *free*, light hearted and refreshed, as if being given a second chance. They feel young and energized.

In addition, they likely have no idea where they're going or what they're going to do. But that doesn't matter. For the Fool, the most important thing is to just go out and enjoy the world. To see what there is to see and delight in all of it.

Unfortunately, in this childlike state the person is likely to be overly optimistic or naive. A Fool can be a Fool. This is the card likely to turn up when a Querent is thinking of investing his money in a new, "sure fire" business. Or when the Querent is sure that it's "love this time!"

Like the Fool, they're so busy daydreaming of what might be that they're ignoring what is. They're about to fall right off a cliff. It's time for them to listen to that watchful little dog, which might be a concerned friend, a wise tarot reader, or just their instincts.

Meaning of the Fool Tarot Card

In Vanilla Sky, we never get far from Tom being Tom; he's an icon of American life, living the American dream —— in life and in the movies.

When Tom keeps getting asked the question, "What makes you happy?" Vanilla Sky pushes a commonplace question onto a mythic plane. Tom embodies the "puer eternus" archetype, the eternal golden boy who never grows up, always on the lookout for the perfect woman.

However, the character in this film is getting older, turning a critical thirty-three —— and even though Tom's surely forty, he looks thirty, doesn't he? With Tom in the lead, Vanilla Sky has no trouble conjuring up a confrontation with immortality worthy of a god.

CinemaShrink

[Nasir]

Steve Pavlina seems to be functioning on a higher level of consciousness, but is still under the influence of his ego. I believe that is why he is breaking from the traditional marriage, and looking to satisfy the wants of his ego.

"Do not deny the classical approach as a reaction, for you have created another pattern in which you will be trapped. - Bruce Lee

[Dan.Linehan]

Far too many people on this thread seem to believe that achieving a "higher level of consciousness" is synonymous with self-sacrifice. Also, that going out and doing things that you love is "ego driven".

I would strongly question both of those assumptions.

[Megan]

Raising children involves self-sacrifice.

No one really loves to walk the floor all night with sick children and then get up and work all day.

Parents sacrifice their sleep, and many other comforts, out of love, and sometimes it just feels like teeth-gritting commitment to the children's welfare, when you're totally fried.

As I said, children are the ultimate reality check.

[HealingMaven]

Originally Posted by Megan

Raising children involves self-sacrifice.

{snip}

As I said, children are the ultimate reality check.

Children and having a love life aren't mutually exclusive. Just ask any single parent. It's more challenging, and of course, the children come first (and sometimes, the children come ONLY), and often suitors are screened more carefully on their suitability for the family unit, but most single parents don't, as far as I know, give up dating and sex until their kids turn 18.

So if being a single parent doesn't mean giving up a love life, how much less does this argument apply here? There's *another* parent in the picture. (you want to argue about the burden of parenting falling in an unbalanced manner on Erin? That's another topic entirely, and entirely theoretical as it hasn't happened yet.)

As to poly taking Steve away from his kids. It could happen. Equally likely is that it won't. I once dated a lovely poly man, a father of an 6-year old boy. We were having trouble scheduling time for a date, so I suggested that he come over & bring his kid & we could watch one of my Muppet Show VHS tapes. (I *love* the muppets. My inner child isn't very inner.) The gentleman was very appreciative of the offer. The kid loved my tapes. And all three of us had a very nice afternoon snuggling. And in none of this was a) the child neglected, or b) the child's mother imposed upon (on the contrary, she was able some work done with everyone else out of the house.)

It just seemed like all those "what about the children" entries deserved an answer.

[mattmcc]

Originally Posted by lasti

So your world is like that: Other people are driven by egoistic instincts, like competitiveness, in order to get outcomes you'd prefer!?

I have no idea what you mean by this statement. All I know, is that from my experience when I want to attract other women I get my ass to the gym. And not surprisingly, it usually works.

The times when I have had girlfriends are the times when I have been working out.

Geez, people in North America are so touchy and "politically correct" about weight. You know, I've lived in a few countries on other continents and weight is openly discussed. It would be normal for a person to say to someone overweight that they are fat - not in a mean way, just in a matter of fact way. And you know what? The person doesn't get defensive or throw a hissy fit. They just agree and go about their business. It's just like saying someone is tall.

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by Pequod

Have you read Marnia Robinsons book "Peace between the sheets"? Based on scientific research and spiritual wisdom from tantra en toaism, she states that having an orgasm unleashes certain chemicals that leads partners to separation. In her opinion this is why partners have often push-pull mechanisms in their relationship. She advises to have sex without orgasm, focussed on connection en intimacy. There are also great "excersices" in her book for this. My question is: What is your opinion about this and have you considered this (for example in a 30-day trial)?

Anyway, I wish you all lots of succes with this. It will be another interesting year at the very least

Excellent question! I've been doing research on this all morning and I find it fascinating. Highly recommend everyone take a look at Marnia's video where she explains the dopamine cycle associated with sex:
YouTube - Healing with Sexual Relationships

This testimonial I also felt was helpful:
Orgasm revisited | Reuniting

Biological Instinct

Seems that one of our biological instincts is to leave our mate after a certain amount of time and seek a new one so as to spread our genes around. More diversity = more probability of survival for the race.

The interesting thing is, the practice of balanced polyamory may act as a balance to this split-up instinct and allow a constant shuffling between a couple lovers instead of resorting to serial monogamy. Looks like there may be two solutions to this split-up instinct:
1. Polyamory
2. Marnia's findings

And right now, Marnia's findings seem more rewarding in the end.

Thoughts?

[Nasir]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

Far too many people on this thread seem to believe that achieving a "higher level of consciousness" is synonymous with self-sacrifice. Also, that going out and doing things that you love is "ego driven".

Who said they believe this?

[alan7388]

Just FYI, here are three serious and wise polyamory advice columns on the web.

And for people seriously interested, I highly recommend the Poly Living Conference coming up the last weekend in February in Philadelphia. Here's the Washington Post's writeup of last year's conference. I was there; the article is spot-on.

Alan M.