2009 Focus - Intimate Relationships (Blog)

[Asmoday]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Lol. Well, that's one of the more amusing interpretations I've seen today.

It's funny how everyone brings something different to their interpretation of this decision. Quite a spectrum to behold.

This reminds me of the spread of feedback I saw when I began my raw diet trial a year ago. A massive spectrum of feedback with each person viewing the decision through a different lens.

Of course many of those lenses will prove to be inaccurate, like the ones that predicted I'd drop dead during my raw diet trial.

I appreciate the warm welcome to the dark side, but I've no plans to switch polarities at this point. If you prefer to interpret my actions through such a lens though, have fun with it.

Whao, wait a second now -- hold on to those horses intarweb buddy!

Certainly, we are both aware that I'm not objecting to this on some moralist level.

And, I am definitely not in that whole pharisee-like, "naysayer" camp. Hell, I thought polyphasic sleep was nuts, but gave you a piddly little donation just to see if you could pull it off.

I think if two people could make this work, you and Erin could, given that I've never physically met either of you. That's why I think it might work for a little while, but that's where the hubris kicks in -- as soon as things are okay the first time, boy its full-steam-ahead.

Its not a lense I'm looking through, its experience. I've been down this road more times than I'd like to count. The simple fact is, sex involves some degree of attachment by its very nature. In the end, it is inevitable that somehow, somewhere, someone in this whole thing will get hurt. That's the only mystery -- and the answer is always a shocker. I'm not predicting doom and gloom, or even necessarily the end of your marriage...

I read through your logic, and I can see no holes. But, its just that, logic.

Deep down, part of you knows where this must lead, and that's precisely why you wrestled with it for so long. After all, to quote the best movie of all time, "We are men of action, lies do not become us". But all that hesitation collapsed eventually against your desire, that wailing wondering. You weren't always awesome, but you became awesome and found your power. Now you actually want to give it a spin and get all that variety and pleasure you really wanted but couldn't access as your old self.

Don't get me wrong, I applaud you. Its nice to see.

I just maintain that on this one, the scales were set between your want and potential gain on the one hand, and the potential risks to others on the other hand.

In the end, you picked you.

I feel like I should throw you a party or something...

[munish]

Regarding marriage and relationships , i found Jiddu Krishnamurti views to be very practical.

Krishnamurti: On Marriage

Understandig the causes of psychological problems - Questions; Jiddu Krishnamurti quotes

I would love to know more about this area through Steve's Articles in 2009.

[Fragrance]

Quote from Steve's Blog:

As wonderful as our relationship has been, for a long time it has felt like something important is missing. The thought that I would never enjoy a deep, intimate relationship with any other woman really started to bother me. I felt like if I stayed married to Erin, I’d be missing out on a huge area of potential growth for the rest of my life. But more importantly, I felt that I had more love to give that was getting bottled up inside me with no good outlet for expressing it. If I stayed married to Erin, I’d have to accept that so many wonderful opportunities for love and connection with other people would never happen. I wasn’t willing to accept that.

Is it worthwhile to grow together as a beautiful couple over 15 years and reach the stage of a perfect and blissful marriage, only to find that your cup is full and the extra love is bottling up inside you, so much so that your marriage alone is no more an outlet for expressing love and you need more women to share it with? Is that where dream marriages end up?

[DeRocky]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Yeah. What a way alright. I wonder how the kids feel? (or will feel about their father)

All things must be paid for.

Cause and effect.

Stephen you seem to have a particularly strong reaction to this one. Actually this is one of the first major things in a while that I agree with Steve on. (My partner and I have talked about this a lot ever since the beginning of our relationship and generally agree about this. You could say I'm "polyamarous" but actucally neither of us has had a sexual relationship outside of each other as of yet).

To me the prevailing society view about monogamy is predicated on posessiveness - as if marriage means you own another individual. That individual is supposedly there to fulfill your dreams, and make you happy -- like a dish of ice cream. Actually, the best way to love another person (whether it's a child or a partner) is to allow them to grow and develop in their own right (and sometimes that's threatening). Still, when a partner experiences the world in a new way it enriches the individual and the couple.

As Steve freely admits, that doesn't mean that everything is going to smell like roses. Life, lived expansively and authentically, is quite obviously unstable and threatening at times. That's life. An "open marriage" could involve a couple which is just sex-crazed ... but have you considered the possibility that it could also involve people who love each other and who want each other to experience freely and grow?

I, for one, can't think of any other way to learn so much about the world, people, and oneself than to experience relationships in all their forms (and that by no means refers to merely sexual ones - but they are included).

Since you've taken the liberty of hurling moral condemnations at Steve ("sexual weakness") - might one also add that certain moral condemnations could be hurled at you on the basis of your feelings surrounding this issue?

[avaj]

Originally Posted by mattmcc

Well, you're a man.

Thanks for writing out what probably a lot of men think. I would bet that almost all the negative replies are coming from women. Some women will just not make an attempt to understand this and will resort to trying to make you feel guilty and shamed because it's such a shock to their upbringing.

Mmmm, then I'm a f*** up woman, because I agree with Steve's logic and I wish my partner would be the kind of man to see it the same way. And nope, I've never cheated on him in the 10-11 years we've been together, it's precisely the guilt/hiding part that makes me sick.

Having it in the open, with partners who are all OK with it and do not give in to petty emotions like jealousy, is infinitely better. And if this does not work out, of course that separation/divorce is the normal solution. Which would have been much uglier anyway, in case of cheating OR in case of "begrudging monogamy generating other frustrations".

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

If you want to test yourself, then make a prediction about what you think will happen over the course of the next year. Let's see how accurate your predictions turn out to be.

Those who predicted I'd drop dead on my raw diet trial may want to upgrade their predictive circuitry a bit first though.

Sure, here are my predictions:

(1) Your audience on this Blog will polarize even further this year. Any strong-faith Christians that didn't leave after your post about Religion will probably leave now, as will many others who find your latest announcement too "non-mainstream". All that leave will naturally be replaced with others who are more into non-mainstream ideas like this and they will love this Blog even more as they will feel that their "non-mainstream" ideas are being supported by Steve Pavlina publicly now.

(2) Some supporters of this Blog will become even more fanatic about supporting the Blog, and those that don't like what you're saying will bash it even more, kind of like Tom Cruise gets bashed for believing in Scientology. In other words, more polarization of your audience as in #1, but also the formation of more fanatical supporters/opposers.

(3) Your traffic to the Blog will increase naturally as world-of-mouth news spreads that Steve Pavlina has decided to "sleep with other women". Unfortunately, those are the words people will probably use to spread the news as they won't want to explain everything you explained in your article. Much like polyphasic sleep was a "strange" non-mainstream experiment, people will talk about it, discuss it, bash it, argue about it, and link to your posts and Blog all at the same time which will drive more links and traffic to your Blog and Erin's Blog.

(4) All this "hooplah" will go away within 3-4 weeks as people get bored of talking about it and it becomes "old news", with the exception of any update posts you write during the year which will re-spark the debate again but not as much as the original New Year's post.

(5) The experiment itself will turn out completely differently than you expected for both you and Erin, altering your relationship forever. Both of you will grow as a result of it, but most probably not in the way you're thinking right now.

In the end, much like your Polyphasic Sleep experiment, the reality of the situation won't be as exciting as the original idea of it, especially after the "challenge" part of it is done with and you've "won the challenge" in your mind, causing you to go back to a relationship with one woman - whether that be with Erin or someone else and you'll stick with that from then on.

(6) You will also realize that while "experimenting" with this, the void in your heart wasn't filled by another relationship with another woman, and you will begin a new challenge for yourself to "share your love" with the world in a much larger capacity than you are right now. You'll come to realize that it's not about two women vs. one woman, but rather sharing yourself with dozens, hundreds, thousands and even millions of people.

Kind of like Tony Robbins does when he goes on stage, or does private coaching with certain individuals, you will begin to build more intimate bonds with people (men and women) that aren't going to be sexual but there will definitely be a MUCH stronger bond than the massive Blog audience you have which you love but feel largely disconnected from since they are just "anonymous people" on the computer screen and you don't get to participate and help them in their lives.

Your previous attempt to offer a "Get Coached by Steve Pavlina" service will resurface in a different way and when you start to really connect with people, whether that be through personal coaching, group coaching or something much more personal than Blogging, you will feel that void inside you get filled.

You're here to help people grow consciously, and helping Erin (as she helped you) was an awesome experience but now that she's able to do the rest herself you feel a void to help others that the Blog isn't filling. Neither did writing your book. You're looking for more "intimate relationships" with people and you do want to help them grow consciously, as it will also help you grow consciously but the stuff you need to teach people can't always be done via Blog articles or books...some of it has to be done in person or via other mediums, so that is what you're going to seek.

(7) A long time from now, even that won't be enough and there will be a much more spiritual solution to the problem, but that goes way past my one year prediction.



That's my prediction...I don't know if all that will happen in 2009 but the ground work for it will....

Let's see how close I come, hehehe...

[beautyscientist]

As Steve has said himself, some fascinatingly varied responses so far. Steve also challenged us to make predictions. Well here is my interpretation and how it will pan out over the next 12 months.

Steve is a successful guy in the prime of his life. He has achieved social esteem from a wide circle and secured adequate resources. He has had reasonable reproductive success as well. He is now in a position to have more reproductive success and is able to support at least one extra family. He is therefore simply behaving in the way millions of years of evolution have programmed him to to maximise his presence in the gene pool in the future.

Most successful people find ways round social conventions to do this when they have the resources. Look at the many mistresses of top executives. Even high earning television evangelists seem to do the same kind of thing.

From the point of view of Steve's genes he is doing all the right things and if he can continue to have enough resources to keep his new bigger harem on the go things should work out okay.

Erin and her children have a different calculus. They get no benefit from Steve's wider promiscuity. But they don't lose out either, so long as there is no competition for resources. The new person/people coming into the relationship are probably the key, because they need to get established. It is imperative for the new woman to get pregnant as quickly as possible, since until she does this she has no strong claim. She will also be very anxious to stop any further females arriving on the scence to stake a claim.

The whole thing relies really heavily on Steve pulling in the cash to keep the show on the road. Luckily this seems to be pretty likely given his current success with his blog and the likely new revenue stream from the book.

So my predictions for this time next year are -

Steve will be pretty happy with the outcome. Basically he can only come out on top.

Erin will be neutral - she has nothing whatever to gain from it but will probably not lose out significantly.

The kids will be neutral - they won't be getting a new sibling this calender year so they are not affected yet.

None of the new relationships Steve strikes up will last. They will be too demanding of his attention because they simply have to get established quickly. When they don't get the response they want they will move elsewhere.

One last semi-prediction, if Steve tries to date more than one extra partner at the same time there will be considerable conflict between potential spouses. The film rights could be very lucrative.

[enigmania]

This was interesting for me to read, and I wish you all the best. I've been actively and openly polyamorous for eight years now, most of my adult life, and it's always felt right to me, and it has been very emotionally rewarding. Perhaps to confound a few assumptions: I'm a woman, almost all my partners have been men, and many of them had no other partners during the time we were together.

Most of those relationships lasted at least a year, some many years, and ended on warm terms. I'm still really good friends with many of the guys. Along the way I met and married my now-husband, writing our vows without language of exclusivity, because our life paths seemed to naturally intertwine for the long term. We plan to have children in the next few years. He hasn't had other partners, although he loves to flirt. Since I've been married, I've most often had only one other relationship.

It was really reassuring to me that you're kicking this year off with extra intimacy time with Erin. If I might offer advice, it would be to make sure to maintain something like that - especially if a new relationship takes off, the rush of endorphins and the amazement of getting to know a new person on a deep level makes it really easy to get lost in the rush of New Relationship Energy. That's when the responsibility of reserving some energy for your existing relationship becomes really important. New relationships can be like a drug; don't let them pull you to short term actions that are hurtful.

As some advice to Erin, you might take this opportunity to explore something new for yourself too. Not necessarily a relationship, but something else to develop independently of Steve. Partly just because sitting around at home doing the usual stuff while your partner is off on a thrilling new adventure kinda sucks. If you alternate being off exploring being a volunteer zookeeper or contra dancing or whatever it keeps things more balanced.

Anyway, good luck to both Steve and Erin. Although I've usually been a lurker myself, there are a lot of wise people on the internet with lots of polyamory experience, and their words have been very valuable along my path.

[inverse Paranoid]

Originally Posted by eruso

I'm a little disappointed that you've chosen this path, but to each their own. I sincerely hope it all works out. Erin, you're a tough cookie.

Seeing her as a "tough cookie" is all a matter of perspective. I don't see any indication in Erin's responses of her "sucking it up" or anything of the like. She sounds more like a conscious person responding with a sense of wonder to her ego's fear-based alarms.

Originally Posted by Stephen

Is she tough? Or backed into a corner?

If she really was backed into a corner she'd either be open about disliking the situation or she'd likely remain silent until she built up the courage to discuss this publicly. I sincerely doubt she's dishonestly feigning "OK-ness" about the situation.

[Synthesis]

Good article Steve, I'm very interested in this subjecdt of polyamory versus monogamy too. However I'm going to throw some critical questions at you.

Why were you even contemplating divorce?
One reason I can think of is that you'd not be as happy as you could be with yourself in your marriage - though then again, happiness is something you choose yourself.
And secondly, there is a frustration of not having tried more women and therefore the feeling that you are missing something in your life which you think Erin can not provide you?
Why would the thought of not enjoying a deep intimate relationship with another woman scare you. You are suggesting you need sex for deeper intimacy as this would flow naturally if you'd have a relationship with another women you say. Couldn't you leave the physical (the sex) aside?


You suggest that mental clarity because of your juice feasting leads to this as if that lead you to a great new insight about relationships... Honestly, isn't it just that this feeling was inside you the whole time and you maybe some clear focus helped you get it out?

You say: "What appeals to me about polyamory is that it’s a way for people to learn to share love and connection without trying to possess each other."
Why are you suggesting a monogamous relationship is synonymous for possessiveness? Isn't it a choice on the side of BOTH partners if they WANT to stay exclusive?
whatever reason they decide to choose for being monogamous. Personally I am against reasons to do with religion, society, etc. but if two partners decide to do this because they feel that if they 'shared' their love with different people they wouldn't be able to give each one the highest intensity of love as they would if they were just with that one person.


Don't get me wrong, I am just throwing these questions out in the open, I am not for or against polyamorous, or monogamous relationships or whatever, it all depends on the people, though I am just curious as to why one would want to be polyamourous as much as why one would want to stay monogamous.

[eruso]

Originally Posted by inverse Paranoid

Seeing her as a "tough cookie" is all a matter of perspective. I don't see any indication in Erin's responses of her "sucking it up" or anything of the like. She sounds more like a conscious person responding with a sense of wonder to her ego's fear-based alarms.

Resisting her ego and not letting her negative thoughts drag her down is definitely something I would consider to be tough. Being "conscious", in this regard, is something I'd consider tough. Erin is a tough cookie, no matter what perspective you look at this with.

[Holistic Star]

This is the first post of Steve's that I've had a negative reaction to. Well not negative as such, but it's the first one that brought me up against my boundaries. After reading both posts I felt very anxious.

I actually had a nightmare about it last night. I woke up crying.

So what's the problem. It's not polyamoury - I don't have a problem with that. In fact when I was much younger I had a bf that I was happy to share and we talked openly about other people we fancied or were dating. I didn't feel jealous and can see that open marriages can work.

It's not religion. I don't have any religious creed to be offended. It's not moral, I don't have a problem with consenting adults having sex.

It's not even concern about Steve and Erin. I think they'll be fine.

I had two dreams last night. In the first one my two best friends (who are older than me and married) said they were going to kill themselves because they were enjoying life so much they realised they were having as much fun as they could ever have. I was crying with them and begging them not to kill themselves and saying it was madness to kill yourself because they had reached the peak of existence.

I woke up very upset and realised that this was about Steve and Erin rather than my friends. Steve is describing the best relationship ever, they connect, bond and are telepathic and yet it isn't enough for him. I think that's what upsets me most.

My next dream I wanted to talk to Erin but I couldn't find my shoes. When I did find them I couldn't walk back to her because the ground was thick spongey bracken and was holding me back. I woke up before I could find her. Not sure what this one means (do shoes represent something?), but it is obviously on my mind.

I realise this is about me and my reactions to the posts and nothing to do with the real Steve and Erin. I don't know or understand fully the reasons it has upset me in my dreams.

Coincidently I read The Game over Christmas and by the end of it felt sorry for the majority of PUAs. Most of them think that getting validation in the form of sex from women will somehow fill up this massive empty hole inside them. It doesn't.

[Brendon Colby]

Originally Posted by munish

Regarding marriage and relationships , i found Jiddu Krishnamurti views to be very practical.

Krishnamurti: On Marriage

Understandig the causes of psychological problems - Questions; Jiddu Krishnamurti quotes

I would love to know more about this area through Steve's Articles in 2009.

These were great reads, thank you!

[Gene]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

But I do appreciate the care and concern you guys are expressing towards me.

I'll add also that we are going into this very consciously. If it doesn't work out, we'll make other decisions. I'm free to leave the relationship and so is he. But it's always been important for us to try something before we decide it's not going to work.

I see it in much the same way I see other thirty day trials you and Steve try. If it works for you you will continue the behavior and continue to refine it as you understand what changes need to be made. If it is something the two of you decide does not work in your lives you will terminate the trial and do something else. I'd call that conscious living.

[Gene]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Part of the reason I made this public by the way is that I don't want my public and private lives to fall too far out of sync. I'd rather keep everything on the same page.

I applaud your decision to be authentic in both your private and public life. I have a lot of respect for you and your decision to be honest about this decision.

I also believe you will learn and progress in your life path as you explore this choice. I support your right to try the behavior on and see if it works. I view it in the same way I do thirty day trials, when the thirty days are over, evaluate, keep what works and discard the parts which do not resonate with your life purpose. I hope it brings you happiness.

[Savage]

Originally Posted by Asmoday

Whao, wait a second now -- hold on to those horses intarweb buddy!

Certainly, we are both aware that I'm not objecting to this on some moralist level.

And, I am definitely not in that whole pharisee-like, "naysayer" camp. Hell, I thought polyphasic sleep was nuts, but gave you a piddly little donation just to see if you could pull it off.

I think if two people could make this work, you and Erin could, given that I've never physically met either of you. That's why I think it might work for a little while, but that's where the hubris kicks in -- as soon as things are okay the first time, boy its full-steam-ahead.

Its not a lense I'm looking through, its experience. I've been down this road more times than I'd like to count. The simple fact is, sex involves some degree of attachment by its very nature. In the end, it is inevitable that somehow, somewhere, someone in this whole thing will get hurt. That's the only mystery -- and the answer is always a shocker. I'm not predicting doom and gloom, or even necessarily the end of your marriage...

I read through your logic, and I can see no holes. But, its just that, logic.

Deep down, part of you knows where this must lead, and that's precisely why you wrestled with it for so long. After all, to quote the best movie of all time, "We are men of action, lies do not become us". But all that hesitation collapsed eventually against your desire, that wailing wondering. You weren't always awesome, but you became awesome and found your power. Now you actually want to give it a spin and get all that variety and pleasure you really wanted but couldn't access as your old self.

Don't get me wrong, I applaud you. Its nice to see.

I just maintain that on this one, the scales were set between your want and potential gain on the one hand, and the potential risks to others on the other hand.

In the end, you picked you.

I feel like I should throw you a party or something...

Your concern about causing some broken hearts seems exceedindly timid to me. Hurt is a natural part of the human experience. Why fear it to such a degree? Why go out of your way to avoid it when you can just pass through it and keep going?

Are you still experiencing some guilt about the broken hearts you left behind? When can you let that go and move on?

In the grand scheme of things, the occasional broken heart is just a bump on the road of a life lived consciously. Joy and sorrow are two sides of the same coin. If you want more joy in your life, you get the sorrow end of the stick too. That doesn't mean you should fear and avoid the stick itself.

People get hurt every day. Such are the vicissitudes of life. That's doesn't mean we should stop living.

Choosing to do something that might hurt someone else isn't a selfish choice. You don't just go around scooping people up and pulling them into relationships. Others must make the choice too, and they must share in the responsibility for any hurt that's caused. But they also get to share in the joy.

Every relationship is a risk. That isn't something to be feared. It's something to be celebrated.

We're in total agreement about the greatest movie ever.

"Life is pain, highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something."

[Socrates]

For all the naysayers, just remember that polyamory works for a lot of people out there (more than you might know), and the majority of polyamorous people I've known in my life are women, not men, so it's not just about men subconsciously wanting to spread their seed. It's really not the horrible thing you might think it is. As long as everyone is communicating it can work out just fine, and when it doesn't it doesn't, just like monogamy (which doesn't have that great a track record itself anyway), and you deal with it just like you would with a failed monogamous relationship.

[Niamh]

Originally Posted by ClareDragonfly

You think someone is going to use Steve's exploration of polyamory to get close to him and kill him?

No, that's silly. But I hear Cupid is a good archer.

[The Wise Turtle]

Curious about these two different thoughts...

"As wonderful as our relationship has been, for a long time it has felt like something important is missing."

"My feelings aren’t caused by any sort of deficiency in my marriage."

What's not missing then?

-Turil

[Cash]

This is so COOL What you are doing is nothing unique..many men enjoy relationships outside marriage with full knowledge of their wives..but you are perhaps the only one who blogs about it and makes money out of it

I unsubscribed from your blog RSS feed after I read this post. This blog has changed focus now, and the new topic is of zero interest to me. It also is completely against my personal value system.

So just dropping in to say that I really enjoyed reading your posts till now. So bye bye and thanks a lot for all those helpful posts on habits change and healthy living

[staceyterry]

Nothing like a good old new year's brain grenade!

Initially, I was upset... really upset... yes, even crying upset. I felt betrayed somehow! Then I settled... thought about it. Recognized that the discomfort I felt was a result of my own limits...or make that fears!

I really admire your courage to take this step. I'm not sure how I feel about it... I feel the emotions and thinking swinging back and forth, but I recognize your honesty and intentions, and I continue to applaud your quest for growth.

Much love to both you and Erin

[jawillie]

I wish you the best in reaching your goals.

My husband and I have talked about this extensively and have both chosen to remain monogamous. Our reasons are based on the fact no matter how we spun it, we saw the need for sex with others completely ego-driven. It is not a religious thing for us at all. It is not about wanting to own each other. We do not own each other. I do not feel he is "my" man and I do not feel like I am held back in anyway. We just didn't see how sex with others would strengthen US. Infact, we saw it as taking away from what we have.

To those afraid to even touch the subject with their spouse, I say you are doing yourself a huge disservice. It's a conversation that has strengthened our marriage and I highly recommend it. We didn't come to the conclusion to remain monogamous in one conversation, it was over a few weeks. For awhile we were almost going "poly" even and it felt exciting. But, then we both came to the same conclusion at the same time that it just wasn't something we need in our lives. But, knowing this and knowing we can talk about it, has opened doors and actually made our sex life in our little monogamous world quite exciting.

Good luck to everyone! Being "enlightened" means knowing what you want out of life and being willing to stand up for it, too, not just "going against the norm."

[RT Wolf]

Longest. Personals Ad. Ever.

[The Wise Turtle]

Having thought about it a bit more, I might imagine that what you might feel like you're missing is the sense of challenge that comes from someone you believe is superior to you, or at least your equal. I could be wrong, but from Erin's response in the latest blog post, it sounds like you, Steve, are the leader in the relationship (she says you challenge her), and you might now be looking for someone else to challenge/lead you for a change. If that's not the main element, I'm guessing it's at least a part of it. What do you think?

Also, I'm curious what other solutions you tried when you started thinking about divorcing Erin. What other ideas did you consider when it came to making the monogamous marriage work out for all of you? Counseling? Hypnosis? A family project/vacation that was something none of you had ever done before? Letting Erin be poly, while you stay monogamous, to see if she liked it first?

I'm mostly curious because I've had some experience with the open marriage/poly community, with it being a major player in both my parents leaving each other (and me to some extent), and in my husband leaving me (only a temporary situation, I continue to hope...). From my experience, couples who try to use poly to save their marriage/partnership are rarely successful, especially when the idea comes from one partner, and is only reluctantly agreed to by the other partner, since, well, what other options are they given...

So yeah, I've been totally with you on all your other experiments before (though I never really understood the reason for the juice feast, personally), but this one seems to be heading sideways, rather than up. But maybe that's what you need to do right now.

Whatever you do, I wish you the most light/compassion/love/honesty as you make your way to wherever it is you want to go.

Peace, Love, and Bicycles,
Turil

[Markus]

Great topic for 2009!
I'm so looking forward to Steve's experiences and articles, can't wait

I think in our society the whole topic "sex and intimate relationships" is all about double standards, being uptight, fake, having fear and so on. Many psychologists and psychoanalysts (incl. myself) believe it's all about the oppression and control of sexual instincts. That's how society works.

It was only a matter of time, that Steve -being such an intelligent growth-orientated individual- would give his attention to this topic. Finally

[The Wise Turtle]

Originally Posted by jawillie

We just didn't see how sex with others would strengthen US. Infact, we saw it as taking away from what we have.

That was the conclusion I came to, as well. But it turned out that it wasn't the sex that was the problem in my husband's and my relationship, it was the fact that we both had Borderline Personality Disorder, and we tended to both be terrified that the other one would leave us, so we tended to act like idiots, pushing the other away to "test" them, to see if they'd still love us after we treated them like crap. :-)

And, yes, that is why they call it "mental illness"!

My hope is that we'll manage to somehow be extraordinary, and end up passing our tests. His version of the test is going on 1 and a 1/2 years now, and I think I'm passing, mostly. But he gave up trying to pass my test, for now, which really sucks for me.

Anyway, thanks for sharing your story. It's good to hear success stories in this world so full of disposable marriages. It gives me hope.

Peace, Love, and Bicycles,
Turil

[kikkifiji]

Willy Wonka:

"Don't forget what happened to the man who suddenly got everything he'd ever wished for....."

He got bored.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by kikkifiji

Willy Wonka:

"Don't forget what happened to the man who suddenly got everything he'd ever wished for....."

He got bored.

Actually, he lived happily ever after.

[steve0617]

Steve,

What kind and depth of male relationships do you already have? I'm not talking sexually, I simply mean strong male friends that allow you to experience the male side of your existence? Do you have those?

Could some of what is missing from your life that has identified itself as polyamory actually be the need for healthy male experiences?

Are you too focused on spouse?

[kikkifiji]

Originally Posted by Angela

Actually, he lived happily ever after.

*lol* I know.. I only say that because it seems this revelation of Steve's was brought on because he and Erin had reached their maximum potential, was the void still there before that?