2009 Focus - Intimate Relationships (Blog)

[september]

What effects have you considered this might have on your kids? I don't buy the "families need two parents" things, natural natural natural blah blah blah. But have you seen any psychological studies on how children handle the alternative lifestyle that polyamorous parents lead... and the consequences thereof? I do know kids are incredibly resilient. However, the outside world is not always so friendly. Steve's got a huge international audience. I'm just saying that it might be difficult to avoid hurting your kids in some ways during this process, if only because others are vibrating at a lower frequency... and as you've seen, this is not the kind of thing that stays quiet for long.

I'd also be careful making comparisons like was made earlier in this thread, that limiting yourself to one person is like limiting yourself to one career. This is where subjective reality starts being troublesome for a lot of people (like me, hah). If you can really treat a person you love like a career, the dehumanizing effects that can have on a person are not trivial, like switching careers can be. You are treading on some thin ice -- just remember that no matter how loving a partner is, or because she is so loving -- she may feel incredibly hurt at some point. Slipping into a solipsist viewpoint in this case doesn't benefit everybody because it benefits you. Loving other people is a zero-sum game -- the more you give to others, the less your primary partner has. And when you start giving to others, there's a chance your primary partner will react poorly to that alternate allocation. There may be some value to your partner in their knowing that although you have more love to give, that you respect and love them enough to forego hurting them by spreading it around in a way that could be more shallow than what you share -- precisely because that withholding is a sign of love itself.

With all respect to Erin, of course. I don't know your feelings, Erin. I'm just recounting my own past experiences.

The best for the both of you, of course.

[Elfwing]

Right now, I'm still sort of stunned and thinking, "Wow." I mean, I know Steve's a nonconformist, sometimes to the extreme, but I never saw THIS coming. I wonder what he'll say in the experience in a year.

Personally, I could only enter a poly relationship if all three or more of us stayed/were faithful to each other, but that's an ironic monopolyarmorous sort of thing and can quickly get messy if too many people are involved. (Does that make sense? Say, three people loving each other, one stays faithful to the other two, etc etc.) But I could never do this myself. I have issues with -normal- relationships. :P

Good luck.

[debbiedoesraw]

Hey Steve
I admit, I was a bit taken aback at your 'focus". I do believe that lots of folks would do this, and some do, if they could stay married and keep their kids around.
All I will say is this: Please don't let this affect your kids. I have been in court over custody for my step daughter for over ten years. If you do divorce, please for the love of god stay out of court. It is a soul and bank account killer. My SD is so damaged, she has been in therapy since six, and she is still suicidal and depressed at 17 1/2.
Kids need two parents, in my opinion. Sure, you can play, just don't let them suffer because of it.
just my opinion, having been a veteran of the war and seen the collateral damage.
deb

[Erin Pavlina]

I wrote about my response to this and Steve is going to share it in his next blog entry, where he will answer a lot of questions as well. So stay tuned.

I appreciate all the emails you guys are sending me. The advice is all over the place. From, "Run now, he's a con artist and emotionally abusing you" to "You guys rock and I support you 100%." I'm especially enjoying hearing from people who have actually experienced this in their lives. I am getting the most value from that.

It reminds me of going vegan. A lot of meat eaters told me I would die without meat. A lot of people who were already vegan knew it was a healthy choice and encouraged me to continue. I've learned over the years to weigh more heavily the opinions of those who have been there and done that.

But I do appreciate the care and concern you guys are expressing towards me.

I'll add also that we are going into this very consciously. If it doesn't work out, we'll make other decisions. I'm free to leave the relationship and so is he. But it's always been important for us to try something before we decide it's not going to work.

[HealingMaven]

Originally Posted by Elfwing

Personally, I could only enter a poly relationship if all three or more of us stayed/were faithful to each other, but that's an ironic monopolyarmorous sort of thing and can quickly get messy if too many people are involved. (Does that make sense? Say, three people loving each other, one stays faithful to the other two, etc etc.)

What you're talking about is called polyfidelity. It's a respected subset and oft-desired branch of polyamory. So yes, it makes perfect sense. And depending on the sexual orientation of the people involved, it can be either a genuine menage a trois, or more of a V-relationship. Ta-da! You're not insane.

Originally Posted by september

What effects have you considered this might have on your kids? I don't buy the "families need two parents" things, natural natural natural blah blah blah. But have you seen any psychological studies on how children handle the alternative lifestyle that polyamorous parents lead... and the consequences thereof?

Just an fyi -- the best adjusted, sweetest, most amazing child I've ever met (he's in his early teens now, and has blown me away time and again since he was 4 or so) is the child of long-term poly folk. I'm not interested in having kids myself, but if I could be guaranteed of having a kid that special, I'd change my mind in an instant. Yes, it's an instance, not a study. But it's a relevant datapoint.

[Nasir]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

You're confusing polyamory with polygamy.

If someone gets married to multiple people, and all involved are doing it to spread love to eachother, I don't see much of a difference.

[Pace]

Originally Posted by Elfwing

Personally, I could only enter a poly relationship if all three or more of us stayed/were faithful to each other, but that's an ironic monopolyarmorous sort of thing and can quickly get messy if too many people are involved. (Does that make sense? Say, three people loving each other, one stays faithful to the other two, etc etc.)

Elfwing,

Yeah, they call that "polyfidelity". I was in a polyfidelitous triad for three years. It was just the three of us (and our son), we all lived together, we were all married to each other (not legally, of course) and we didn't have any relationships outside the triad. It worked pretty darn well for a while, and when it finally did end, it wasn't for reasons intrinsic to polyamory itself.

I'll tell you one thing, though, adding another person to a relationship doesn't just double the need for communication, it makes it increase exponentially.

[Pace]

Originally Posted by Nasir

If someone gets married to multiple people, and all involved are doing it to spread love to eachother, I don't see much of a difference.

It's just a legal difference. It's possible to be married to multiple people in all senses of the word except the legal sense, but when you're talking about legal marriage they call it polygamy (or, I guess, polyandry?) but otherwise it's just polyamory.

[Angela]

Well, Steve, you sure know how to start the new year with a bang.

Sorry.


All my oxytocin started jumping around in my chest like a frog in a blender, reading this post, and discussing it with Danger Man. My first inclination was to interpret that as feeling threatened, and now I'm just practicing being an open-system around the issue, and I feel really, really awake. From looking at the incredible number of people who are viewing your post and this thread, and seeing how it's already creating a big stir on the Internet, I'm not alone in that.

Erin, I am really looking forward to seeing how this all unfolds for you, and I am very grateful to you both for your generosity in sharing your experience. Thank you both, Erin and Steve. I'm getting a little teary. Best wishes in this focus and everything else for your new year.

Yikes. Ai chihuahua.

[borisg]

Steve,

Whatever the outcome is of your 2009 focus, we will all learn new things together about human interaction, its potential and its boundaries. Thank you for sharing your ideas with courage.

I imagine that life in the non-incarnate plane might work in a polyamorous way. However making that work in this dimension is going to be quite interesting.

Best of luck to you and your family.

[VictoriaC]

I second what legend said:

If you do not want to be in your marriage leave it.... this gives Erin the chance to blame you... Stay in this polymoronic thing and she will forever be blaming herself......wondering where she fell short in filling your needs...

I for one would much rather read about how a thinking man deals with these feelings and is able to maintain a vibrant monogamous relationship....

You can call it evolved human nature but in fact it's the same game that's been played throughout the ages.... Your cake and eat it too....

People will be hurt.....

I notice almost all the comments on this post have been positive, but I found this post to be sickening on so many levels. I cried after I read it.

This isn't love. It's ego, pride, selfishness and greed.

My guess is that you didn't have any experience with women prior to meeting Erin but now that you've got some fame and success under your belt, you want to sew some wild oats.

I too knew something was up when you started referencing The Game and lingo from pick-up artists. Just what the world doesn't need: one more pick-up artist...and another broken family. As another poster pointed out, the last thing women need is another man willing to share his penis with us...and think he's doing a big favor. You mentioned in one of the comments that you might delete the paragraph where you wrote that sharing yourself physically would cause women to really get what you are trying to teach them, but it's already been said.

If this is where personal development leads, what's the point?

Your post reads like some giddy kid being let loose in a candy store, but like all kids in candy stores, that thing that feels so good at first taste, has consequences. It's like what happens to all people who succumb to temptation. They get burned and you will too. It's just unfortunate you have to take your wife and kids down with you.

This will hurt Erin more than you will ever know. She loves you and wants to protect her kids. She will contort herself into all kinds of shapes to keep her family together. You're taking for granted the good you have in your relationship with Erin and thinking you will get that plus something more elsewhere. But at what price to Erin and your children? Once again, I second Legend. The real journey of truth, love and power would be to explore how to maintain a vibrant monogamous relationship.

You can couch all this in intellectual terms, but at the end of the day, you're just another horny guy thinking with his nether regions. There's nothing enlightened about this.

[lasti]

Wow, this thread shows how much need to grow lies in this particular field.

Some reactions made me laugh, though.

[Eduardo César]

Wow! Steve, thank you for the courage to share this with us, and I'm looking forward to read your posts about relationships this year.

Best wishes for you and Erin

[straysweeper]

From my stand point, wanting to experience more women seems instinctual. However, as someone that has wanted to pour all of himself into one woman as long as I can remember, this comes as counter intuitive for me. Regaurdless, I understand where you come from. I wish you luck. (Labor Under Correct Knowledge)

[mattmcc]

Well, you're a man.

Thanks for writing out what probably a lot of men think. I would bet that almost all the negative replies are coming from women. Some women will just not make an attempt to understand this and will resort to trying to make you feel guilty and shamed because it's such a shock to their upbringing.

I think you've probably done a lot of reading on the topic so you have more knowledge than me. But from learning about different cultures and societies, polygamy is the most common form of marriage across cultures, not monogamy.

Steve, you concluded your post:

If I had it to do all over again, knowing what I know now, would I still get married? No, I doubt it. The monogamous marriage model doesn’t feel right to me. I love the idea of long-term committed relationships though, but you don’t need marriage for that. I don’t see a compelling reason to get a formal divorce just on principle, but it’s fair to say that my commitment to being in a single monogamous relationship has ended.

This is something I have thought a lot about recently. Monogamy doesn't seem right to me either.

I look at marriages today and what do I see?

I see divorce rates of 60%+ plus a good number of unhappy marriages that stay together because of the children or they think it's the right thing to do. That means probably around 70-80% of marriages are not happy.

Marriages in the past were mainly held together because of the economic dependence of women on her husband. Now that the tie has been removed (at least in North America), we see that most marriages do not last based on "love" alone.

I know you can't reply to much on the forums but what advice would you give to an unmarried, 20-something man like myself? Or perhaps a better question, is what advice would you give your 20-year old self regarding this?

[avaj]

ya know what? I bet that many people, men and women alike, think/feel the same but do not have the courage to fight the status quo. the result is either frustrated monogamy, or guilt-inducing affairs.

so kudos to both of you, for willing to shed this narrow view. hope it all goes well and it does not lead to your breaking up, because you make a great team.

I cannot even touch this subject with my partner, a very clear-minded,smart,progressive person in most other aspects [considering a catholic upbringing in a backwater country, could have turned out much worse]. but I've thought about it wishfully, even if the term itself is new to me.

so for me it feels good at least to know that others are/get more enlightened. I hope to live to see the end of this primitive institution called marriage.

good luck to both of you, on this new path of exploration!

[Susie]

Okay okay, I get the logic and you know what, I agree. If the choice is either divorce or first try out polyamory, I say try out polyamory if both agree to it and then take it from there. Maybe it'll work out, maybe it won't.

But this all seems to me a bit like, "Nerd marries at young age. Years later, nerd strikes the big time and now wants to get laid the way he couldn't before he was famous." Well, who can blame him?

[Anna Conlan]

I just wanted to say good for you, Steve and Erin.

I love that you have the courage to try something different, to see if it works. And that you always aim for a higher level of abundance and love in everything you do.

[tintin]

uh steve i had to force myself to finish reading your post there were loud clanging noises going off in my head .danger evacuate! bail out.no way jose!my heart sank i think im being made to look at this again and again.battle between a recording and a life lived with your heart turned out.risky business.cringe from the sheer volume of growth required to do that.
dunno if i want to shake you or be thankful to you.but i surely want to pretend as if i never read your post

[andreelerowes]

I know you can't reply to much on the forums but what advice would you give to an unmarried, 20-something man like myself? Or perhaps a better question, is what advice would you give your 20-year old self regarding this?

Spend some time finding out why (you think) "almost all the negative replies are from women" without assuming that it's because they aren't "enlightened," because they're scared, or because they just don't understand the male sex drive. Spend some time finding out what both genders might (have) gain(ed) from being married (not necessarily in the legal sense, but more like why people band together in the first place). Spend some time thinking about things like guys not wanting to wear condoms because it affects their sensitivity and why women might feel resentful when guys want to galavant but women are expected to stay home and take care of the kids (i.e. are you willing to stay home and take care of the kids while the woman gets a chance to galavant?). There's more to polyamory than just fighting the status quo.

Spend some time pondering the difference between being against marriage because you have no interest in committing to anyone other than yourself (i.e. having multiple partners because one is a horny bastard, which I mean as lovingly as possible — we all have horny bastard moments... or eras...), and being pro polyamory because you have intense relationships with people you know well and yearn to take them further (and that feeling is mutual/accepted among all parties).

[Slamboard]

Has anybody set up a poll to gauge how many couples are talking about Steve's post and how many individuals are avoiding the subject and/or not pointing it out to their spouse? I'm not motivated enough to make up a good list of poll answers, I just think it's a good idea. We probably spent a couple of hours all told discussing this thing.

[chucknitro]

Whatever is bugging you, the answer is not with others.

Look inside before you decide that polyxxxxx is really the way forward.

Best wishes and Good Luck

[Apollia]

From an astrological perspective, it's very interesting that this announcement was made on possibly the very day transiting Uranus was exactly conjunct Steve's Venus. However, I'm not sure it was exact, because that depends on Steve's birth time, which I don't have; all I have is his birthdate, which I found on Wikipedia - 4/14/1971.

In astrology, Uranus is the planet associated with sudden, shocking actions, rebellion, defiance of convention, etc., while Venus is the planet associated with love, relationships, marriage, etc.

Here's a short interpretation of transiting Uranus conjunct Venus from Uranus Transits Birth Chart and Natal Planets :

Uranus conjunct Venus
New and (perhaps) unusual ways of appreciating and loving may be possible now. You may discover something new about love or may adopt a different and unconventional value system for a time.

There's a longer interpretation at this site: Uranus Transits I probably shouldn't quote the entirety since it's so long, so, just go to the section titled "Uranus-Venus transits".

According to that page, transiting Uranus conjunct natal Venus is a transit which only happens once every 84 years. The interpretation is astonishingly appropriate. I'll quote a little bit:

You will begin to seek freedom and excitement in your relationships, particularly in your love (and sex) life. If there is room in your existing relationships for this type of change, it can be a time of exhilaration and growth for both partners. If not, you may feel the need to end some of your present relationships and seek this new freedom elsewhere. Some people open up their marriage to include other companions or sexual partners.

Steve, have you been studying astrology at all lately? Just curious.

Best wishes,
Apollia

[TDRock]

Well, honestly, open/poly relationships are the norm in my social circle. There are very few of us who chose a more traditional model amongst my friends community. For me, dealing with the needs and emotions of one person is TRULY enough. LOL! I could see wanting to sleep with someone and have a fun little fling but really dealing with multiple deep relationships is beyond my capacity, point blank. I guess I'm the opposite of you. LOL!

Ankywho... You know.... it really doesn't matter what we all are going to think if this is what you're going to do but it is odd that you felt the need to make this a public 'cause now it's a curiosity thing to see how this will 'unfold'. From what I've witnessed over the last 15 years, it's drama-filled and difficult BUT not impossible and it really can work for some people. On the serious level, however, I've never seen anyone for whom it worked really long-term. In every case I've ever seen, a choice had to eventually be made and - in my opinion - it was never really fair to the person who was "brought in" because they were the automatic third wheel. People always chose their long-term partner when it really came down to it. Particularly when kids were involved. So yeah... complicated.

Anyway, I hope this works well for you, Erin and the other people with whom you are involved.

[Savage]

Originally Posted by Apollia

From an astrological perspective, it's very interesting that this announcement was made on possibly the very day transiting Uranus was exactly conjunct Steve's Venus. However, I'm not sure it was exact, because that depends on Steve's birth time, which I don't have; all I have is his birthdate, which I found on Wikipedia - 4/14/1971.

Pretty amazing. I was born at 10:24pm in Santa Monica if that helps.

I honestly don't pay much attention to astrology. I just expect the planets to catch up with me when they're ready.

[Savage]

Part of the reason I made this public by the way is that I don't want my public and private lives to fall too far out of sync. I'd rather keep everything on the same page.

[RRR]

I have a feeling this change towards greater intimacy will lead you away from the boards, there will be a lot more face to face, and eventually you'll start funding and helping run important groups. I'm very excited to see where this goes, whether you will operate like Soporno, Man + Women, or if you will operate in a tribe setting Men + Women. Very very postive move Steve I'm elated for you.

I'm curious how the kids will cope, I'd be very interested to see the effects of having a few more adults in the house, forming a kind of tribe to help the kids grow even healthier. I was thinking it would have been nice to have more conscious adults around when you were in the throws of juice feasting detox. I'm very curious as to how things grow for you.

I noticed on facebook you had a message from Soporno. His worthy playboy aspect is an interesting light sided version of relationships, I wasn't at all surprised to see you two communicating. After you have calibrated yourself (have fun) into the polyamorous lifestyle I would love to hear your insights on relationships. Its been the deficiency of this blog for quite some time.

[fellowtraveler]

From past experiences in my salad days (I'm in the 2nd half of the main course, now)...ummm, I'd say you might have a 50/50 chance. Of course in our case we admitted we did it for fun and pure lust. Didn't need to write a thousand words to justify it.

Then again, if the urge is uncontrollable (surprising that, for Steve), better to try it than call it quits right away.

Anyhow, continung kudos for "exposing yourselves" (geddit?) and your 99.44% pure honesty.

[Apollia]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Pretty amazing. I was born at 10:24pm in Santa Monica if that helps.

Thanks.

This here is a command line that can be copied and pasted into the free astrology software Astrolog 5.40 to produce your chart:

-qa April 14 1971 22:24 +8 118:29W 34:01N

And here's an image of your astrological chart, generated by Astrolog 5.40:



Your Venus is actually at 19 degrees 56' Pisces... so it's actually not that exactly conjunct transiting Uranus, which is currently at 19 degrees 16' Pisces (and was at about 19 degrees 13'/14' on 12/31).

You would have had to have been born around 8 or 9 in the morning on 4/14/1971 in Santa Monica for transiting Uranus to have been exactly conjunct your Venus yesterday.

Transiting Uranus will be exactly conjunct your Venus around January 20th.

Also, because Uranus has retrograde periods, there were a couple other other exact transiting Uranus/Venus conjunctions which occurred around Oct. 1st, 2008 and March 31st, 2008. (So, to say transiting Uranus conjunct natal Venus only happens once every 84 years isn't precisely accurate).

The upcoming January 20, 2009 transit will be your last transiting Uranus/Venus conjunction for something like 84 years, however.

Best wishes,
Apollia

[Savage]

Originally Posted by RRR

I have a feeling this change towards greater intimacy will lead you away from the boards, there will be a lot more face to face, and eventually you'll start funding and helping run important groups. I'm very excited to see where this goes, whether you will operate like Soporno, Man + Women, or if you will operate in a tribe setting Men + Women. Very very postive move Steve I'm elated for you.

I'm curious how the kids will cope, I'd be very interested to see the effects of having a few more adults in the house, forming a kind of tribe to help the kids grow even healthier. I was thinking it would have been nice to have more conscious adults around when you were in the throws of juice feasting detox. I'm very curious as to how things grow for you.

I noticed on facebook you had a message from Soporno. His worthy playboy aspect is an interesting light sided version of relationships, I wasn't at all surprised to see you two communicating. After you have calibrated yourself (have fun) into the polyamorous lifestyle I would love to hear your insights on relationships. Its been the deficiency of this blog for quite some time.

Johnny will be in Vegas next week for a seminar, so Erin and I should have the chance to meet with him then.