Why Steve is Wrong About Not Getting a Job (and Starting a Business)

[ruchirkc]

I've seen Steve advocating time and again that getting a job isn't good. He's against jobs from the time he started this site. But here's a funny thing: businesses (and ultimately, the world) can't thrive without people who have jobs!

Seriously: just imagine if everyone had a business or was self-employed. It's just impossible. There would be no big companies (and no products such as cars, gadgets, and other electronics). Most industries just wouldn't exist.

I do agree that people should try to get jobs they actually like. But I don't see why everyone should start a business or become self-employed...

[daredevil83]

There are plenty of sites which convince you that going to job is quite normal. I guess that most people around you try to convice you that there is nothing wrong with it, even if they're unhappy.

Apart from Steve really doesn't like jobs, he tries (IMO) to show you that it should be your conscious decision - with all its consequences - to go to job or not.

"Quote of the day" for you (by Steve Pavlina):

There's only one true authority in your life, and it's you. You make the decisions. You take the actions. If you're looking to some external authority figure, leader, or guru to tell you how to live your live, you're looking in the wrong place. That leader is you. Whether you feel ready or not, you're in command.

Edit: Ops! There is another thread on this topic here and I missed it You should read answers

[Steven Dent]

Please explain why business cannot thrive without people having jobs? If everyone had there own business then problems may occur but I honestly don't think that's going to happen.

I think Steve's advice on jobs is perfect for people who are reading this site and looking to improve themselves. Although not for everyone.

[Raphael]

Perhaps this theory can only be applied for SMART people ;-)
Not-smart-people probably can't succeed without a job anyway.

[Holistic Star]

Well if everyone was a limited business, companies could hire freelancers on a timebound contract for a particular project when they needed them. They would probably re-hire good contractors over and over again as they built those relationships.


Given the state of employee rights in the US (compared to the UK - i.e how quickly you can hire and fire people) I actually think that's not far off from the situation right now.

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by Holistic Star

Well if everyone was a limited business, companies could hire freelancers on a timebound contract for a particular project when they needed them. They would probably re-hire good contractors over and over again as they built those relationships.


Given the state of employee rights in the US (compared to the UK - i.e how quickly you can hire and fire people) I actually think that's not far off from the situation right now.

I personally really like this model, and it would work very well if we got rid of employer-based health insurance. I've worked in several companies where sometimes they hire on temporary workers or LTE people and just keep them on year after year . . . I've done this myself, and it can be a win-win situation. But currently, most people won't do this because of the insurance issue.

[jawillie]

Originally Posted by Raphael

Perhaps this theory can only be applied for SMART people ;-)
Not-smart-people probably can't succeed without a job anyway.

That's one bold statement. (but I like!!!)

Really, either you "get it" or you don't. If you don't get it then keep living as society has taught you to live, with a limited mind-set and a feeling of lack (there is never enough).

As humans we are capable of so much more. Who says things can't be different? Why can't we ALL be happy and free? Why can't we ALL pursue our passions and dreams while still creating value? It can be done, but again, not if you think if it can't.

Why do we have to accept "the way things are" as they way they always have to be??

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by jawillie

That's one bold statement. (but I like!!!)

Really, either you "get it" or you don't. If you don't get it then keep living as society has taught you to live, with a limited mind-set and a feeling of lack (there is never enough).

As humans we are capable of so much more. Who says things can't be different? Why can't we ALL be happy and free? Why can't we ALL pursue our passions and dreams while still creating value? It can be done, but again, not if you think if it can't.

Why do we have to accept "the way things are" as they way they always have to be??

One problem is that some people have passions which do not create value.

[Acting Like Godot]

Another problem is that some people really aren't passionate about anything.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Steven Dent

Please explain why business cannot thrive without people having jobs?

Relatively small businesses may thrive, without employees.

Bigger & more complex businesses cannot thrive without employees. Try manufacturing an aeroplane; or operating a hospital; or even just running a restaurant on your own. And you'll see.

Greater things happen, when there is teamwork. Teamwork means that there is a team. "Team" means that there are many people. They come together, as employees of a notional concept called a "company".

When they come together, and work together, pooling together their different skills and backgrounds, they achieve much more than one person can do.

[Holistic Star]

Yes I agree, well functioning teams are much more productive than an individual working alone.

I'm a team player through and through. I work significantly better with people than without them. However that doesn't mean to say that an employment contract is the best way to create a team. People naturally form teams all the time, even self-employeed people. Some are informal supportive relationships, and some will be under contract. For example, if a self-employeed person hires a business coach, they are forming a team to improve business value and productivity.

I'm sure that there are downsides to the freelancer model I propose. It has the danger of being very transactional if done in the wrong way and people's feelings and employment rights could easily get trampled on (of course that happens now too). One of the biggest headaches in HR is turnover because recruiting can take months due to notice period times and it takes 3 - 6 months to get the average employee up to speed. I agree working on big complicated projects with freelancers could potentially be fraught with difficulties. But then if it was a valuable, inspiring project that was run well and for the highest good of all, wouldn't the majority of freelances want to stay till completion anyway? The reason we have so many dissaffected workers is that many companies have bosses in ivory towers that don't understand life on the ground floor and vice versa.

[Matt Willard]

I think it was an announcer from a famous video game series who said:

"CHOOSE YOUR DESTINY."

Like with all of Steve's opinions, they are there to help filter your own decision. And even so, you'll often find you need to tinker with what works best for you, but overall, don't let outside influences decide for you. Find your own path. Choose your destiny.

But if you get your spine ripped out by Reptile I am not to blame :V

[MasterD]

Originally Posted by ruchirkc

I've seen Steve advocating time and again that getting a job isn't good. He's against jobs from the time he started this site. But here's a funny thing: businesses (and ultimately, the world) can't thrive without people who have jobs!

Seriously: just imagine if everyone had a business or was self-employed. It's just impossible. There would be no big companies (and no products such as cars, gadgets, and other electronics). Most industries just wouldn't exist.

I do agree that people should try to get jobs they actually like. But I don't see why everyone should start a business or become self-employed...

Steve is simply not targeting that audience, so I don't see where he is wrong.

[JeromeX]

Originally Posted by MasterD

Steve is simply not targeting that audience, so I don't see where he is wrong.

Do you mean that "smart people" should quit their job and start a business, and average joes should sign the "slave contract" and stay in paid-job in order to be exploited by smart people?

Are you guys walking your talk about truth/love/power/oneness stuffs?

According Gallup survey, "job" is number one concern of pople and their family. So we must be very careful here to play eyeball game.

It is not best long term strategy to play unconventional and controvercial game since TRUST is most important factor to make money.

Anyway, there is no right or wrong according to oneness. Steve should be allowed to be wrong.

There are no evil coproration and religious organization as well according to oneness. There are only seeking souls.

There is no hatred towards job according to oneness. There is only love.

Evil and hatred are your own creation.

[Arboretor]

Like everything Steve writes, this is not The Gospel According To Steve, it is food for thought. It is not The Truth. Take from it what you find valuable (and there is a lot), and leave those parts that you can't resonate with.

[munish]

It is a tragedy ,that we have to work in order to make a living.

Especially doing a job , it is meaningless .

What Steve says is , have a purpose and make a living from it too.

Yes, it is difficult. But this is life.

[dbstraight]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Relatively small businesses may thrive, without employees.

Bigger & more complex businesses cannot thrive without employees. Try manufacturing an aeroplane; or operating a hospital; or even just running a restaurant on your own. And you'll see.

Greater things happen, when there is teamwork. Teamwork means that there is a team. "Team" means that there are many people. They come together, as employees of a notional concept called a "company".

When they come together, and work together, pooling together their different skills and backgrounds, they achieve much more than one person can do.

Why are you equating "on your own" and "without employees?"

Steve wrote a published a book. He didn't do it on his own, but he wasn't employed by the publisher. Neither was the publisher employed by him. They simply had similar interests (namely, the publication of Steve's book) and pursued them in a symbiotic relationship. What's to say this can't happen in other businesses?

Consider Linux (an operating system, like Windows or Mac OS X). A typical Linux distribution (version) has millions of lines of code constributed by thousands of programmers, and the kicker is... almost all of the code was contributed freely by the programmers simply so Linux could be the best it could be. The cost of having developed a typical Linux distribution by normal software development methods is usually estimated at over a BILLION dollars. People working from their passions can do a great deal without the employer/employee relationship.

Also, think about this. Instead of trying to explain why business we have today couldn't work with the employer/employee relationship, try to brainstorm what kind of businesses we might have if everyone worked according to their passions and strove to create value above all else.

[funchy]

When I've read his writings, I didn't get the impression he said no job. Being self employed is a job. Being a writer and selling ideas is a job. Picking up dropped aluminum cans and turning them into the recycling center for money to buy food is a job.

I got out of it that you need to find out what you are really meant to be doing, i.e. your calling in life - your passion. Don't waste it living like a robot going to a job you have no connection with. Pick what you choose to do with thought; be in control of your destiny, not a mindless drone going to the same mindless job that leaves you feeling empty.

[Steve Pavlina]

Me wrong? This is not possible.

[Dimond]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Me wrong? This is not possible.

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Me wrong? This is not possible.

I tell my wife the same thing all the time.

[PeaceCat]

I think there's plenty of room in the world for people of both mindsets - those who seek employment and those who wish to be self employed.

I think Steve's point of view aims to get people with latent potential and talents (the "smart people" he aims his content at) out of the conformity mindset, there are many square pegs who try to stick themselves in round holes because it seems like an easy option, but these people may be happier and more successful running their own business or being a freelancer.

However, there are people who can happily be employees, I'm one of them and the reasons I'm happy with this arrangement is because I think of myself like a self-employed person, offering my services to an organisation I choose to work for. I also see that one day I could do something more entrepreneurial (and already do a little on the side), but for now I'm happy honing my skills as an employee and being of service that way. I guess my point is that I feel it is my conscious choice rather than something I "have to do to pay the bills".

Another factor that helps is that my DH runs his own business, so as a couple we get the benefits of both lifestyles (he gets to sleep late and work in his PJs, I get to go out, interact with people and appreciate homelife at the end of the day!).

[Parthon]

It's certainly true that in our current society that we need various forms of "jobs" so that work that's required can be done. But it wasn't always this way, and it won't always be.

This society is just a transition, like all others, and one day we'll rise to a new level of contribution and creation that will change the way we live. Right now it works to have large organisations paying people to trade time for money to get things done. Recently though, the shift has gone from paying people for work, towards paying people for value. Honestly though, paying people for thair value is the real way it's always been, it's just been covered up by the salary and the wage of the current times.

I do forsee a lessening of the corporate structure and a breakdown in the way we all do business. I'm not sure what the next step in societal evolution will be, but I hope I'm alive for it.

[Andrew Brunelle]

I would say that from Steve's perspective, he is right. Maybe from your perspective he is wrong. Sure, it would be "impossible" for everyone to do what he does because we would have 6 billion bloggers, but if everyone follows their passion, we will find ways to meet our basic necessities. I think Steve's article entitled, If we all awaken, will we starve?

If Everyone Awakens Will We All Starve?

So we'll figure it out if we all follow our passions and do what we want to make a living, not what is assigned to us by a superior officer.

And if you're one of those people who truly loves their job, keep going. It's up to you to decide. So if you don't agree with what Steve is saying, that's fine. It doesn't make him wrong, it just makes him unique.

[bluedragon]

I think that if people ran away from jobs more and more, then the business owners who would need employees would start treating them better and offering them a better way of being an employee (more rights, a different kind of interaction with superiors, evaluation according to merits, better and more honest explanation of their job requirements before taking the job, the permission to refuse to do an assignment which is contrary to what they agreed upon at the time of hiring, without firing them for it, etc.).

[lifetimelearner]

Originally Posted by bluedragon

I think that if people ran away from jobs more and more, then the business owners who would need employees would start treating them better and offering them a better way of being an employee (more rights, a different kind of interaction with superiors, evaluation according to merits, better and more honest explanation of their job requirements before taking the job, the permission to refuse to do an assignment which is contrary to what they agreed upon at the time of hiring, without firing them for it, etc.).

I don't know because I worked with a lot of people that put up with a bunch of crap and most of them said -I don't have the desire or energy to find another job

me I couldn't put up with the crap and it was showing in my attendance

so I got fired

In todays society there ARE going to be people that put up with being mistreated

I would love to see what would happen if everyone decided that enough was enough and quit or went on strike
I would esp love to see that at my old job !!!!!!!!!!!!

[RT Wolf]

Are you sure that's not a self-fulfilling prophesy?

You also seem to assuming that just because "everyone" can't just run their own business, then you shouldn't either. That is, I don't particularly see why you should be concerned about what "everyone" can or does do when you're thinking about your own life.

The way I understand Steve's dislike of jobs is as such: he believe that most jobs lower your consciousness. If there was an organization filled with highly consciousness people (such as Steve has suggested he will create), you can get a lot done and I'm not sure Steve would advise against that. A "job" is, in some ways, like ALG said, a number of people coming together to accomplish some sort of bigger goal, though few people are actually as conscious as that. We can accomplish a lot with teamwork, such as build the world we have today. Human beings seem to have traded physical attributes (tough hides, claws, sharp teeth, strength, etc) for the ability to work together and we've accomplished a LOT compared to other animals largely through teamwork.

Running your own business is a massive boost to your level of consciousness, and you don't even have to run a business full-time. I have part-time jobs and run some entrepreneurial ventures and the entrepreneurial stuff requires me to be proactive, alert, awake and figure things out. The job aspects are repetitive, put me under the thumb of a boss who has a few arbitrary rules that make no sense and which he can't even explain properly, have little control over my schedule, am generally reactive, etc.

BTW, the "what if everyone did that?" is an inaccurate argument. I'm willing to bet someone said at the eve of the industrial revolution, "What if everyone went to work in jobs in factories and left the farms; we'd all starve!". If moving towards entrepreneurship is a giant social trend like you seem concerned it is, then we'll adapt. If there's something we all do well as a species, it is adapt.

I wrote another rant about this here:

http://www.mind-manual.com/blog/inde...rbage-pickers/

This is a question that shows up in various forms, such as, “If everyone awakens, wil we all stave?” Usually, this is an excuse to justify the fear that causes us to not pursue what we truly want. Not being courageous enough to pursue our goals is ok, its the denial that that is the real issue is what will hold you back. The first thing is to acknowledge it. Courage is like a muscle and you are simply a bit weaker than your goal requires. However denial will only hurt you in the long run.

That, I believe, is the real reason people ask this question. It’s easy to feel good about yourself if everyone else is also stuck in the same place, or if you can assign some external reason for why you are not doing what you really want to do but don’t have the courage to right now. Those reasons enumerated, I do want to answer the question as asked

Rest at the site.

[Lupe]

Originally Posted by RT Wolf

If there was an organization filled with highly consciousness people (such as Steve has suggested he will create), you can get a lot done and I'm not sure Steve would advise against that.

Where did he suggest he will create...?

[RT Wolf]

I think it was in the same post announcing the creation of the LLC, or just when he was talking about future plans for this site, including creating products on specific topics like self-discipline.

[floslib]

Honestly, I think Steve has the right idea, but takes it a little bit too far in his writing sometimes. However, he's also come right out and told us he does this.

I'm working on getting my own business started now. I'm getting there, but it will likely take some time. I spend a lot of time on it, because I have fun with both aspects of it. I like writing about gaming, and I also enjoy the tinkering with my blog. Looking at it now, it's come a long way from when it was two posts on a stock template with no plugins or recoding done to it.

Now, I haven't made any major changes at any point, but I've kept making small changes over time, and they add up.

But it still has a long way to go. My goal is to have it earning me a good income ($3000/month to be specific) by the end of 2009. In the meantime, I'm looking for a job to cover my expenses. I simply don't have the money to wait for the site to take off, and would like to be able to support myself. If that means another job for a year or two, or however long it takes, then I'm fine with that. I'll try to find a job that's moderately interesting, and if not, I'll know it's only for a couple years.

Of course, getting a job in the meantime is where I disagree with Steve. He would say it's better to be homeless and work towards your goal anyway, though I forget which post I read that in. I'd rather still be able to support myself. In addition, I still need a little money to keep my site going. I may or may not generate what I need through my site before I need to renew it, though I think I will. After that hurdle, I'll have enough to sustain the site on it's own year after year assuming the same or greater income continues to come in.

I agree that I hate the idea of having a job, and have generally seen it as a loss of freedom. However, living at home can also be limiting to freedom as well, as can being homeless, and I'm trading one set of limits for another. Specifically, I'm looking for the set of limits I find least limiting, then picking up that set until I can discard them all completely.

For me, the least limiting of these circumstances would be to have a job and my own apartment, until I can support myself without the job.