Why is steve so against jobs?

[magi13]

for whatever reasons you guys choose, to go against the norm or not, take responsibility and don't say in the end if ever you get disappointed "steve said so" it's your choice.


^,^ this is probably the only thing i should contribute in this thread.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by moonrambler

Sure, we can duplicate it.

No need. People who demand evidence will explain it away even if they see it. They are invested in it not being real.

[Eric Revelin]

Originally Posted by cylon

No need. People who demand evidence will explain it away even if they see it. They are invested in it not being real.

Which is funny, because on this subject there is no room for debate. They have to delude themselves to not understand the possibilities.

If evidence contrary to one's own view is enough to threaten him then it's time to abandon that perspective.

[jacknick]

In my opinion just do what you love... If that that involves getting a 9-5 job then power to ya! If that involves starting your own business then good for you! But you have to ask yourself at the end of the day, am I REALLY happy doing what I'm doing. That's the key I believe, being honest with yourself and your potential. Don't sell yourself short and in my opinion that usually involves doing your own thing.

Sure with a job you can make a lot of money and with that money you can do what you love and help others. Sure you can run your business and make little money but do what you love and help others. I see so many posts on this forum about transcending the duality of good and evil, right and wrong, but yet I don't see it here. Just do whatever your doing consciously, it doesn't matter what it is if it's your 'path' or whatnot.

Live your life and be honest with yourself is all I have to say. Are you really happy? Or rather, could you be happier?

[BeyondtheWrap]

Originally Posted by dwixi

I understand that jobs are not always the best thing for people but really ... isn't working for someone just the same as having your own business?
Really your boss is just your business client and your workmates are just business partners. Its just a longer term project than if you had your own business.

Steve actually has agreed with this view:
You Are Self-Employed

[dwixi]

Originally Posted by BeyondtheWrap

Steve actually has agreed with this view:
You Are Self-Employed

Why does he have to always focus it on the word "job"
like writeing an article called 10 reason why you should never get a job.
Having your own business could be worse than having a job! you could be doing something much less out of alignment with your purpose.

[Eric Revelin]

Most people have a job mindset.

Steve does two things:

1. Talks to the audience in their language

2. Turns what they believe on its head

Anyone who reads his posts and does exactly what he says, without examining it or thinking it through, is stupid. Steve's overall message is that you should be living freely in accordance with your purpose.

[bugmenot]

Having read Steve's Post on 10 reasons to never get a job - I think the reason he's against jobs is Confirmation bias - Steve wants to believe he is happier not having a job. The reason I think this is that the tone of the article is quite negative (even the title is negative) and the arguments don't really stack up (self employed people earn 24/7? does that include plumbers?). I'm glad that Steve writes a blog so I can read it - and it's great that he makes a wedge of cash too, especially since I get his wisdom for free.

Here's 10 reasons to work for a living (just for a laugh):
1) If I screw up and lose the company $1m, the most I can lose is a paycheck.
2) Most business startups fail in the first year.
3) I'm in a social environment - I meet new people every day
4) I'm learning from how other people work, and from other people's ideas.
5) I'm out of my comfort zone - my manager pushes me to try new things
6) It gets me out of the house
7) I don't have to care about my work on the weekends - it's not my business, it's someone else's.
8) If I get sick, I get paid when I'm sick. If I die or become disabled, there's insurance to help us cope.
9) I'm part of a team, we work together - there's no stars or primadonnas, we get things done.
10) There are more important things in life than work.

[cylon]

The reason I think many people aren't so much against jobs but see them as limiting is because they are limiting.

Think of how amazingly vast the universe is, how expansive, creative, and full of potential humans are.

And for what? To sit in a cubicle from 8-5 like a little drone worker bee? Someone would choose to live that way?

Depends. Some people have great jobs that are a joy. Many have chosen voluntary slavery, and they will put up with an amazing amount of abuse and stress to be living the lives their boss has chosen as appropriate for them.

The most important thing I think is the feeling of freedom, of being in charge. If you can do that by being someone's employee and receiving a regular, pre-determined paycheck and being told what to do all day long, and still enjoy it, that's great. All different sorts of jobs out there.

[eternomi]

Wow, a very heated discussion!

I had a problem with Steve's articles regarding jobs too, but after evaluating how he uses the word "job", I realized, in his context, a job refers to menial positions you end up accepting because you can't seem to figure out what you want to do with your life and you indefinitely postpone figuring it out because you get a bit too comfortable with that kind of work, or you play the victim and blame others for your share in the world, or you calculate some odds and figure you'll never be able to do what you want to do, or you are not quite qualified to do what you really want to do, but can't seem to get yourself together to get to the level you need to be, so on and so forth..

Joblessness is about being proactive and conscious and planned about what you choose to do as your life's work, how you provide a service and earn an income from that service. You find meaning in what you do, you strive to get better at it (because you really enjoy what you do), it connects with others and fills a need/want, etc..

I also agree that some types of work are more suitable for working by yourself or in small groups while others really do require a larger group of people working together. Nothing wrong with working "with" others. If you are "jobless", you work "with" others. If you are looking for a job, you'll work "for" others. A huge difference!

This is how I settled this issue in my own head. Maybe it'll help some of you put it to rest and move on too.

[magi13]

it depends, in my case i like my job. it's not limiting in anyway and i'm making tons of money out of it.

so it has something to do with one's own perception.

i don't just believe i test it to see if i'm happy with it. ^^, i guess that's something that i find liberating.

[pjhaggerty]

You can be conscious and work for someone else. Working to accomplish a goal you didn't come up with is not good or bad.

Everybody has to provide value to survive. Some people provide value towards a goal that somebody else is leading them towards. Some people provide value on their own. The first one is called a job, the second one, self-employment.

There's no problem with people working together towards a common goal, even if one person is the leader and others are followers, which is sort of what a job is (idealistically)

I think that what steve was writing against was the type of job and work environment. Working for someone else is not the issue, the type of job, work, environment etc. that you are in is the issue.

This is a very individualistic thing. One person might thrive in a job/environment that others hate. No problem with that.

The problem is when you are in a job and it has pulled you out of alignment with truth love and power.

Since most organizations are not in line with these three values to begin with, and since most people are not in line with these three values, it becomes hard to provide value in a way that is in line with those three. (in addition to leading to all sorts of other job-problems)

When you're self employed, it is much easier to align your value delivery system with those three values, if you choose to. In a job, somebody else chooses.

Let's say steve needed help providing value. If we went to work for steve, as employees, we would probably have a much more conscious job than working for the local mcdonalds. Why? cause steve's organization is in line with those values.

Working for someone else isn't the issue. It's being out of alignment that's the issue. This just happens much more frequently in a job than in a self-employed situation.

[cylon]

I agree it's fun to provide value but it's not true that you have to do it to receive money. People win the lottery. People have trust funds. People receive inheritances. People receive settlements. These of course are just the easy examples that come to my mind, but these are all instances where there was no providing of 'value', yet the universe delivered money/abundance.

I do think we enjoy sharing with others, and helping others. And wanting to provide value does tend to come naturally to many. But I disagree that that is the ONLY way, to receive abundance.

[vegbear]

I posted this in another forum, and found it relevant to this thread:

As a recent graduate architect, I feel that there is a strong need for "jobs" as a career. There is NO WAY I can become a certified architect without gaining experience under a practicing architect. I really enjoy your posts and inspiring words, Steve, but when you advise people, like me, to not get a job it slightly angers me. I have been offered a job recently, and contemplating taking it over the past few days has made me realize that I WANT to be an ARCHITECT!

If I didn't I would be pursuing my interests blogging, and providing graphic design services. But, I would not be maximizing my potential, you see. I was meant to do MORE than design web ads. I should be designing buildings. The same is true for government positions, scientists, professors, etc. The qualities of bringing a group of professionals together is the greatest form of synergy when the intentions are aligned!

Now, I am not saying that if you hate what you do you should stick with it, but generally speaking jobs are a very important element to our society.

It's just when he describes a job with being a slave, I think it is very one-sided on his part. I am getting sooo much out of the relationship with my boss, learning how a firm works, experiencing the levels of a project, and connecting with clients (while getting paid!). This is not slave work. I just feel like he is putting "us", people with jobs, into a drone category of following the motions. I AM following the motions to eventually own an architecture firm. There are certain necessary steps to take, just like how doctors have to earn their residency. The apprenticeship process is very fulfilling and a meaningful tradition that has lasted ages.


Steve replied:

Erin's Dad was an architect for many years. He ran his own biz and worked freelance. You don't need to enslave yourself to design buildings. Buildings can be designed by free people too.

Now here is my main point. I have no experience with an actual project. In order to become a certified architect (I have no desire to practice illegally) I need to work under a practicing architect for 300 hours. I am willing to do this for FREE! This is called an internship, and many people are willing to gain experience this way. When the "job" is soooo beneficial to my future as an architect, I don't need the salary. So, yes, my ultimate goal is to have my own firm and practice "freely" but for now I am happily working under someone else. I may be helping achieve their goals, but my goals are also being fulfilled.

[Brutha]

I really enjoy your posts and inspiring words, Steve, but when you advise people, like me, to not get a job it slightly angers me. I have been offered a job recently, and contemplating taking it over the past few days has made me realize that I WANT to be an ARCHITECT!

What went wrong? You made a decision about what you want out of life. The article seems to have fulfilled it's purpose.

[vegbear]

Not exactly. The article was arguing for the side of not taking the job and focusing on my freelance design and blogs, which I have already established. In this economy, the fact that I even got a job interview is extremely lucky. But when the employer called me, I said "Maybe" about being interested.

So, yes, I now know what I want out of life. And I have a Plan B if I loose my job. The article basically showed me that I have a decision, and making decisions are powerful. I don't think that that was the main intention of the article, but I am becoming more conscious about my life which is a very good thing.

[magi13]

This article gives you an option in all intents and purposes with respect to your choice of making money. That's it. :3

It gives you an alternative over the common norm.

This is how I perceive it to be.

If you have read the article, then you can decide if it's for you or against you and when you make your decision, it'll be all up to you, you'll be responsible for making the choice. So make sure you don't regret that choice if you consider this articles advices, options and views.

[Brutha]

The article basically showed me that I have a decision, and making decisions are powerful. I don't think that that was the main intention of the article, but I am becoming more conscious about my life which is a very good thing.

Steve's sees it as his life purpose to make people more conscious about their lives. That the main reason why Steve started his blog.

Does being conscious sometimes mean that you will make bad decisions because you don't go with the mainstream way from time to time? Sure it does. But the pain lets you grow.
If you simply take Steve as your guru instead about making conscious decisions about your own life Steve hasn't succeeded in his goal.

This post from Steve might give you a bit more perspective on the intent behind Steve's writing.

[pyrogen]

I'm employed. I don't feel "un-free" or enslaved. Actually I do work that is considered "menial" by most standards but because it's not a 9-5 office job, and because I am living side-by-side with other human beings taking part in their existence, it's more akin to being a foster parent in some respects. And I only work TWO DAYS A WEEK - the rest of the time is free for me.

[vegbear]

Does being conscious sometimes mean that you will make bad decisions because you don't go with the mainstream way from time to time?

I don't feel that I am making a "bad" decision by taking a job offer. It is the path my life is going right now, and where I want to be. If, in the future, I am not happy with this decision (which I would never know now if this will happen), then I will take a different direction in my life. I am smiling right now... just realizing there is no "bad" decision out there. Some paths are just harder/darker than others.

Going to meditate on this now, about this crossroads my life is in right now. The two paths: Waiting for a job offer for an architecture firm, or the other path is continuing with my freelance graphic design work and blogs. A very wonderful predicament I am in!

With love,
Amanda

[pyrogen]

Vegbear:

Maybe your taking this job offer will help you get the experience to start your own firm down the road... sort of like the apprenticeship model.

[Brutha]

I am smiling right now... just realizing there is no "bad" decision out there. Some paths are just harder/darker than others.

There is also another distinction:
Path that someone else chooses for you and paths that you choose for yourself.

[threeofclubs]

so according to Steve pavlina someone who owns a small shop that hardly makes any money and has to work 10+ hours a day 6/7 days a week is better off than a head surgeon, professor at Harvard, bishop, NBA basketball player Chief executive of a charity etc etc?

[Ninja]

I also think it's not really about having a job, but the resistance-is-futile employee mindset. My sister works in a petshop and her boss sees her as an equal. If he has a good year, all his employees get a bonus, and she can call him a jerk in his face if he's being cranky, and she won't get fired for it. She's really passionate about her work and there's a good chance she might even own the store one day. She might have a job, but she's more than just a mindless employee.

[bbdream8]

Originally Posted by dwixi

I understand that jobs are not always the best thing for people but really ... isn't working for someone just the same as having your own business?
Really your boss is just your business client and your workmates are just business partners. Its just a longer term project than if you had your own business.
I know that people that don't look at it in this way have the danger of seeing their job as something else.
So yeah what I'm asking is is their really a need to be so against jobs, you have an article called " 10 reasons why you should never get a job" There good points for people that are unaimed in life and don't know what there doing but the same problems that you said happen when you have a job would also happen to those kind of people if they had a business too!
Thanks.

Hi dwixi,

A job does not provide streams of income compared to running a business on your own. To make the matter worst, if you are dissatisfied about your job while you are earning an income that isn't really satisfactory for yourself, it make sense to go create your own business that you have an interest in. However if you love your job, it is definitely recommended that you hold on to it since you are loving what you are doing.

"One man's meat may be another man's poison."

Vincent
Personal Development Blogger

[greggsandler]

I am glad I do not have a job right now. Making videos, and writing a children's book. But I am also living at home (age 23) and want to leave relatively soon. But I also don't want to have a job. How can I transition the two?

[Bruce Achterberg]

Originally Posted by dwixi

I understand that jobs are not always the best thing for people but really ... isn't working for someone just the same as having your own business?
Really your boss is just your business client and your workmates are just business partners. Its just a longer term project than if you had your own business.
I know that people that don't look at it in this way have the danger of seeing their job as something else.
So yeah what I'm asking is is their really a need to be so against jobs, you have an article called " 10 reasons why you should never get a job" There good points for people that are unaimed in life and don't know what there doing but the same problems that you said happen when you have a job would also happen to those kind of people if they had a business too!
Thanks.

Have you had a job recently? They're pretty bad!

But on the other hand, I don't think it's the job "model" that's so bad... I think it's the current iteration of the job model.

Right now the job paradigm is filled with an excessive amount of compartmentalisation, not very well aligned with truth, love, or power (aka, "TLP").

Lack of alignment with TLP creates a not-so-good experience in any situation.

There are workplaces out there that are more in alignment with TLP, and those are actually fairly decent places to work with (from what I've seen, heard, and can assume).

Jobs can be good, but at the moment, the vast majority, and the paradigm and ideas that paradigm is founded on, are bloody terrible and need to be overhauled. We're bleeding our talent, contribution, and purpose profusely (although not everyone is... just a fair few people).

Working for yourself or having your own business(es) just has such a ridiculously high upside compared to most jobs and places of work. I would absolutely love to see some places of work that start to change that, though... but it'll take some doing. Interestingly, the things that most need to change aren't the jobs or places of work, but the people who create them.

Enter Steve.

(Also enter Bruce, and his fellow lightworkers. You can never have enough lightworkers at a party.)

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by loveandlight

...
But in most businesses, you have to have employees to do the work if you are going to get to a point where it starts generating good revenue. Do you think Bill Gates, Oprah, Steve Jobs, or pretty much any succesful person you can name, did it 100% on their own? Of course not. People have to air Oprah's show. People have to actually fulfill endless operations for Microsoft. Imagine owning a restaurant and having to cook the food on your own, bring the food out to the table, AND do all the manegerial operations yourself. It's not even possible and you'd have a really bad restaurant that would probably have to close after it's opening weekend.

Yes you can hire employees for that. But why not hire freelancers, contractors, etc? I don't believe it's really necessary to have employees in many cases.

In ICT subcontracting happens a lot, especially for specialized skills.

In building companies you also find many subcontractors down to individual levels.

[amj]

Originally Posted by dwixi

I understand that jobs are not always the best thing for people but really ... isn't working for someone just the same as having your own business?
Really your boss is just your business client and your workmates are just business partners. Its just a longer term project than if you had your own business.
I know that people that don't look at it in this way have the danger of seeing their job as something else.
So yeah what I'm asking is is their really a need to be so against jobs, you have an article called " 10 reasons why you should never get a job" There good points for people that are unaimed in life and don't know what there doing but the same problems that you said happen when you have a job would also happen to those kind of people if they had a business too!
Thanks.

I agree with you. For people who don't know what to do with their lives having a job can be just what they need. I don't like jobs but in order to start my business I am going to need money. Getting a job will provide me with that money. Overall, having a job isn't for everybody, but for some people it works.

[Betrade]

Originally Posted by spirit4711

Yes you can hire employees for that. But why not hire freelancers, contractors, etc? I don't believe it's really necessary to have employees in many cases.

In ICT subcontracting happens a lot, especially for specialized skills.

In building companies you also find many subcontractors down to individual levels.

I was in business for myself for around 5 yeras. Unfortunately, due to the end of my marriage and a few opther things, I had no choice but to go back to work for someone else. I also needed better health inmsurance that I couldn't get as a self employed individual.

Anyway, on the subject of employees; if your running your business "by the book" and to the letter of the ;law, hiring employees changes everything. There are more taxes to pay, workman's comp, unemployment insurance, etc.

There's also the hassle of your employees problems becoming YOUR problems when they affect work flow, production; cash flow. etc.

I didn't hire anyone. I had two partners and when we needed extra help, I hired friends relatives only as long as I needed them; and on a 10-99 basis. Their taxes were their responsibility. I also paid them very well; so they always wanted to work for me.

My theory is, if you pay peanuts; don't be surprised when you have monkeys working for you. Plus, I don't believe it's right to pay people less than they're worth. It's an insult as far as I'm concerned.

But; employees are a real game changer. I kept my business as small and efficient as possible with minimal overhead; which resulted in an extremely high profit margin. I believe that if you can't make good money then there's no point in being self employed.

I can also say that being self employed can be very hard work, and ultimately, you DO still have a boss; your customers. You have to answer to them and you have to keep them happy or they'll just as easily go elsewhere.

That still beats working to make someone else rich though. I'm trying to figure out a new business to start right now. My cash flow isn't too good right now (I had a 6 month layoff and got way behind on my bills for a while) so I have to figure out something I can start on a shoestring. I just haven't quite decided what I want to do; but when I do, I want to make a move back into self employment. Once I figure out what I want to do and have a workable plan; I'll jump right back into self employment; and I can't wait to do it.

It was tough going back to work for someone else after being self employed too. It's never the same once you've taken that leap and for me, I don't believe that I'll ever be happy working for someone els anymore. I mean, it pays the bills, but I can't say that I like spending my time to fulfill someone else's plans and dreams while mine get pushed aside. It's not a very good way to live IMO; especially now that I've worked for myself. There's just no comparison.