Why is steve so against jobs?

[Lupe]

Originally Posted by dwixi

"science is a wonderful thing, if one does not have to earn his living from it"
Albert Einstein

Einstein Worked as a patent clerk even at the time when his most famous theorys were published.

That's interesting. So you don't necessarily have to quit your job to start creating value. You can do it on the side and keep at it until that atom bomb idea bursts, and even turn into literally atom bomb in Einstein's case.

[Acting Like Godot]

Basically the discussion so far (and also Steve's many posts on the topic) are just very incomplete and ends up painting, dare I say it, a highly misleading picure for many of Steve's readers.

To put it ina nutshell - there are so many kinds of people out there; and so many different types of jobs; and so many different ways to earn money; and so many different kinds of passions that people have ....

.... that the permutations are waaaaaaay beyond what Steve has suggested.

Since the topic doesn't particularly interest me in a personal way (because I have quite a different idea of what a "job" is,and what I want to do with mine), I've not really commented very much.

But anyway, I'll just share a few observations.

1. What You Love to Do, You May Cease To Love to Do, If You Had to Do It for a Living (Regardless of Whether It's A Salaried Job or You're Self-Employed)

This is what a lot of people don't get, until they actually fall into the trap.

It's very possible that you enjoy a hobby or personal interest very much ... but that you can only enjoy it at that level. You end up disliking it, if you actually converted it into a job / business.

Example - you may love a particular sport. But when you actually turn professional, you find that in fact, it becomes very gruelling, very taxing and you don't enjoy it any more.

2nd example - you may love photography, as a hobby. But when you actually turn professional, and find that you have to compete with other professional photographers for work/business, you may find that it becomes very dreary. You may also get sick of clients who don't appreciate the subjective artistic merits of your work (a problem you didn't have, when you didn't have clients)

2. You may make a lot of money doing what you dislike .... whether you're salaried or employed

3. You may deliver a lot of value, but this doesn't mean you like what you do.

Eg a doctor who helps many people get well, but actually hates practising medicine, and likes cooking

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

1. What You Love to Do, You May Cease To Love to Do, If You Had to Do It for a Living (Regardless of Whether It's A Salaried Job or You're Self-Employed)

I would argue that if that happens, you just change what you do. Essentially, do what you love to do while you love doing it and when it doesn't interest you and you have no passion for it anymore, then stop doing it and start doing what you love again.

2. You may make a lot of money doing what you dislike .... whether you're salaried or employed

This is a tough one. I've tried following this path before and I know many, many people who have tried to follow the "I'll make lots of money first and then do what I love." path and I've never seen it work out long term.

Temporarily, it's easy to make lots of money doing anything...even stuff we despise... but to build long lasting abundance that never stops flowing in, I think you need to follow your passion.

3. You may deliver a lot of value, but this doesn't mean you like what you do.

Eg a doctor who helps many people get well, but actually hates practicing medicine, and likes cooking

I would never want to be treated by such a doctor. If a doctor enjoys cooking more than healing, I would definitely hope that he would have enough courage to quit his job and become a cook. I believe that a doctors role should be to fully participate in the healing process of a patient, and not to just go through the motions like an android. If my doctor didn't have a passion for healing people, I would not want him advising me on health in any way.

[Lupe]

Steve said that jobs are modern concept.

What about all those farmers in the past. Were they slaves of the upper class? I think I read in a history book that serfs of Russia were basically slaves.

[Andrew Brunelle]

You know what a job is essentially? You getting paid to accomplish someone else's goals. If that's what you want or like, fine. But if you want to spend the majority of your time pursuing your own goals, having a job is a major distraction.

[MrNorCal]

I posted this in a different thread but it applies to this one too so I figured I'd copy and paste it.


We will never, and I mean never, ever, EVER, live in a society where we are all self-employed.

A form of organization is needed. Doctors need assistants. Lawyers need paralegals. The list goes on. Those who are self-employed fit into the mix as well. Non-profits need a director, a board, different workers to serve different functions...we are all interconnected and there is a certain level of organization that is needed for things to run efficiently.

And being employed isn't such a bad thing. Actually, a lot of people would prefer to not be self-employed. Just because the shoe isn't right for Steve doesn't mean it won't fit another perfectly. And it doesn't give people the right to call people who work from 9-5 "slaves" or point out their "slavery" to them.

I've been self-employed and worked for someone else and highly preferred working for someone else. I wouldn't want to be self-employed.

This has to be the definition of self-righteousness with a hint of "holier than thou" and it is something I find hard to swallow without gagging.

I can just see myself calling up my aunt who works as a store manager at Barnes and Noble right now. "How could you work for someone else?! You low consciousness slave being!!!"

Or what about cops. Or firemen. Or waitresses.

You totally benefit from these "slaves" on a day-to-day basis, and actually have the nerve to demean them when you actually derive the greatest benefit from their "slavery", or should I say services.

Should you really want to not be a total hypocrite about the whole thing, you need to start getting your own food in restaurants, making your own clothes, making your own coffee at Starbucks, start being your own doctor, start making the toys your kids play with, start building your own houses, and start manufacturing your own toilet paper. Until then, you are just endorsing the "slavery", or should I say services again, that you condemn.

Side note -

HOMELESSNESS IS NOT FUN!!!!!! It's probably one of the most traumatizing things you can go through!! Have any of these people actually been homeless? I mean actually on the street homeless? What is with the fun adventurous homeless talk?!? WTF?! lol ok I'll stop now

[Eric Revelin]

I don't think anyone is raving against working, just the system. We don't need jobs as we currently define them. It is akin to slave labor as things are. It's got nothing to do with your level of consciousness and it's not a judgment of the person, just the system. Conscious people are more than capable of using the system to further their goals (and they can also change it).

[Kazeko]

As I've noticed, the system of paying for someone's labor is just fine. Alone.

But what is totally corrupted is the assumed attitude towards employees. It's the true slavery attitude. It's so "usual" that most of employees never even try to question it.

Compare for instance: what if you are 1 minute late for a meeting with your business partners? It's not a big deal, right? You say "sorry I'm late" (if it's really 1 minute no one will even notice), and you're just fine.

But what if you're 1 minute late to your work? In most companies it's a crime. Especially in the ones with that card security systems.

I recall the time when I was in the process of hiring to a large gamedev house. The "lie detector" procedure was a must. What a shame for them! I guess it might be ok for some government or military services (read CIA) but not for a game developer! Yeah, "this is to prevent stealing our technologies". But isn't a NDA enough?

Should I say that the same situation in business would be a total nonsense?

[Aleksander Krstic]

Originally Posted by MrNorCal

HOMELESSNESS IS NOT FUN!!!!!! It's probably one of the most traumatizing things you can go through!! Have any of these people actually been homeless? I mean actually on the street homeless? What is with the fun adventurous homeless talk?!? WTF?! lol ok I'll stop now

Steve for example was.

[Kazeko]

Originally Posted by MrNorCal
HOMELESSNESS IS NOT FUN!!!!!! It's probably one of the most traumatizing things you can go through!! Have any of these people actually been homeless? I mean actually on the street homeless? What is with the fun adventurous homeless talk?!? WTF?! lol ok I'll stop now

Originally Posted by Aleksander Krstic

Steve for example was.

I understand what MrNorCal wanted to say. But the fact is that being "street homeless" is a matter of choice also. It's up to you to be dirty homeless on the street or to be intelligently homeless, as, for example, Jay Pavlina describes. I know (from my own one-day experience), that it's very easy to panic in the very beginning and you'll be miserable by the end of the day. But if you do some wise things instead - you'll be homeless and fine.

Besides, homeless doesn't mean money-less. That's why the computer games model of "they escape to play the role of a person, homeless, jobless but happy" (Steve talked about RPGs for sure) is not accurate. In most RPGs that "fun having" persons are criminals. Or just killers. It's legal to kill in those fantasy words. And it's a valid "way of living" there to kill your "enemies" and to take their money, or to take their possessions (yes, from the dead bodies - armor, clothes etc.) and sell them to local vendors.

You might say - in real world you can kill animals. i.e. hunt. But in real world you won't be able to sell a single boar hide and to earn even a night at an inn. Besides, in many worlds your char doesn't need any sleep or food.

I suppose, the freedom to express ourselves safely is what we seek in fantasy worlds, not just fun. And we often "escape" to reduce our pain and apathy. I'll explain that further.

It was actually weird for me to read Steve's words written about RPGs long ago, holding in mind my recent "Purge the wrong answers first" post. I remembered myself doing nothing but playing WoW in the end of 2007, after quitting my job. Now I see some additional reasons, which correspond quite well with "being homeless" topic.

Sometimes we feel tremendous amounts of pain. Steve is luckily an ENTJ (Thinking Judging) type. He perceives the world by logic. I use this system just for the ease of explanation. But for the types with letters F or P (feeling, perceiving), who "feel" the world directly, that pain can be overwhelming and paralyzing (knocking out, in fact). It's hard to see perspectives, being in such extremely painful states as homeless. And it's very easy to surrender to reality or to escape it. I played WoW 2 days ago, but seems that my interest in it decreased tremendously. Now I logically see that I've got many other (much more satisfying) things to do. But in the times of pain or apathy that game virtually saved my life.

So, in any state of our being, no matter how painful or miserable it is - we always have hope and a choice. Thus we can change everything gradually.

[moonrambler]

The problem with this whole idea that nobody should ever have a job is it paints with such a broad brush. It gives the impression that nobody who has a job could ever be fulfilled, happy, and accomplishing their most important creative and career goals within that job. I know people doing that while self-employed, and I know people doing that within a job. One of my friends, for example, who's a college professor, runs a division, gets handed loads of money to spend on equipment, is at the point where he can set his own hours and doesn't have to teach anything he doesn't like to bother with -- and he loves it. He could retire now quite easily but he says he's not going to EVER retire, he's having so much fun and making so much money.

What's the point of insisting that every single person should not have a job? I'd be more inclined to insist that people should not have jobs they dislike, that prevent them from doing their more important creative work. However, when somebody is having a great time doing their job, then I say, more power to them.

Originally Posted by Andrew Brunelle

You know what a job is essentially? You getting paid to accomplish someone else's goals. If that's what you want or like, fine. But if you want to spend the majority of your time pursuing your own goals, having a job is a major distraction.

[loveandlight]

[QUOTE=Kazeko;304926]I understand what MrNorCal wanted to say. But the fact is that being "street homeless" is a matter of choice also. It's up to you to be dirty homeless on the street or to be intelligently homeless, as, for example, Jay Pavlina describes. I know (from my own one-day experience), that it's very easy to panic in the very beginning and you'll be miserable by the end of the day. But if you do some wise things instead - you'll be homeless and fine.

QUOTE]

I've had experience working with homeless people and I always feel like I have to speak up when people are discussing homelessness on these boards lol

And sleeping on a friend's couch for a month isn't being homeless, although technically it is. A lot of people say "I used to be homeless" when they slept on their sister's living room furniture for 2 weeks. It's not the same. I'm talking about people who are homeless homeless.

A lot, and I mean a lot, of people who are homeless would love to NOT be homeless. It's complex and it's not just laziness, although sometimes that is the case. Many of them have debilitating mental illnesses, such as schizophrenia, or were just struck down by a series of very unfortunate events.

I don't think people fantasize about being homeless. They fantasize about extreme freedom. I would say trust fund babies fall more into this category than individuals who are homeless. Being homeless can give you a certain amount of freedom, I suppose, but keep in mind it is also an extremely limiting situation to be in as well.

Nonetheless, homelessness seems to be glamorouized by some people on this board and let me just be the first to assure you that this is 100% fantasy. Maybe a few people try it on and it works out great for them, but usually the "thrill" only lasts for so long before it starts to become pretty degrading and the adventures you go on end up being a bad scene from a Dean Koontz novel. Unless you have some pretty good drugs in your pocket, the thrill fades pretty fast.

As far as the job situation goes - not every job is slavery! I love my job! And I've actually received a lot of fulfillment from it.

I think people being treated like slaves in jobs is more the issue than just jobs.

[loveandlight]

I also think that it's not very conscious to not realize that one approach will never fit all.

Steve might flourish being self-employed, but some people do not.

It's like when someone starts eating celery and they find out that celery works magic with their bodies, so they go on to tell everyone about the magic of celery. Some people try it and insist that it doesn't work for them, but then that person criticizes them and says they are just not realizing something that they are. It's like no, celery just does something for you that it doesn't do for me.

Also, if you are going to be self-employed, at some point you HAVE to have help if you are going to expand. Being a blog writer is not the typical business model of being self-employed so I can see how it is easy for Steve to have that mindset. But in most businesses, you have to have employees to do the work if you are going to get to a point where it starts generating good revenue. Do you think Bill Gates, Oprah, Steve Jobs, or pretty much any succesful person you can name, did it 100% on their own? Of course not. People have to air Oprah's show. People have to actually fulfill endless operations for Microsoft. Imagine owning a restaurant and having to cook the food on your own, bring the food out to the table, AND do all the manegerial operations yourself. It's not even possible and you'd have a really bad restaurant that would probably have to close after it's opening weekend.

[Aleksander Krstic]

Originally Posted by loveandlight

I also think that it's not very conscious to not realize that one approach will never fit all.

I read this is for dozens of times and I think it's an excuse every time I read it.

IMO truth > everyone is different.

Like in this case having a job is bad for everyone.

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by Aleksander Krstic

I read this is for dozens of times and I think it's an excuse every time I read it.

IMO truth > everyone is different.

Like in this case having a job is bad for everyone.

The problem is . . . this is not truth. It's opinion. And it's extremely easy to prove it's not truth. All you need is one person who is happy and creative and fulfilled and accomplishing his/her goals by having a job.

Even being a pro athlete is a job. They have an employer and get a paycheck. They get hired and they can get fired, too.

[Ajit Odedra]

Steve's approach to writing can be very provocative and ideal in sparking a debate which often leads to an increased awareness in those who take part.

I don't believe Steve is against jobs per se, but rather the unconscious act of drifting into something that disconnects you from Truth, Love and Power. Steve writes in such a manner to wake-up those who have let themselves be carried along by life unconsciously.

[magi13]

You know the best thing to prove which side is right is to show physical evidence of people who are actually making money with this point of view. ^^,

not just self glorification but physical evidence, without such, it's just another dead end and empty promises.

jobs = good for the people, ->supply physical evidence
steve view = good for the people -> supply physical evidence

^^, if there is no evidence, then it is subject to belief or faith which is 100 percent just another lie. (scientific point of view)

that's the only thing that will clear this topic up.

p.s. you can also add negative physical evidence.

Good luck

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by magi13

You know the best thing to prove which side is right is to show physical evidence of people who are actually making money with this point of view. ^^,

not just self glorification but physical evidence, without such, it's just another dead end and empty promises.

jobs = good for the people, ->supply physical evidence
steve view = good for the people -> supply physical evidence

^^, if there is no evidence, then it is subject to belief or faith which is 100 percent just another lie. (scientific point of view)

that's the only thing that will clear this topic up.

p.s. you can also add negative physical evidence.

Good luck

Well . . . lots of people are making money under both points of view.

[magi13]

Originally Posted by moonrambler

Well . . . lots of people are making money under both points of view.

I have a point here, if lots are making in either view with physical evidence, then you can't say either is useless. It means that either can be an alternative for the other depending on what the person wishes to follow.

@,@ no wonder you're
well so far I haven't seen any evidence posted. ^^,

ehem ehem

[jasonb]

Originally Posted by magi13

You know the best thing to prove which side is right...

Why do you think there is a "right" side to this argument?

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by magi13

I have a point here, if lots are making in either view with physical evidence, then you can't say either is useless. It means that either can be an alternative for the other depending on what the person wishes to follow.

@,@ no wonder you're
well so far I haven't seen any evidence posted. ^^,

ehem ehem

Ok -- Steve Pavlina is making money without a job, and all the actresses on "Desperate Housewives" are making money with a job

[magi13]

Originally Posted by moonrambler

Ok -- Steve Pavlina is making money without a job, and all the actresses on "Desperate Housewives" are making money with a job

can we duplicate your answer? if we can then that's good, goes to show that it's an option. like i said before it does not prove his view is better but works only as an alternative to jobs.

both are alternative to each other, depending on the person.

to which is right, i'm talking about the topic which states if steve is against jobs.

1. steve's alternative
vs.
2. jobs

@Jasonb, that should have been obvious if you're reading this thread.

to answer the question of the thread starter,

I post my reply so that you will view at least some form of proof, that would provide either side. which they still fail to provide. ^^, and at least show some advantage if they will be able to give at steve's view against mindless control of the job providers and enslaving the workers to do their bidding.

it's either they got lucky or something else. ^,^ mwahaha.

This is just to add some spice to the topic.

Job world = hard work, mindless drones or happy workers? well paid?
Against job world(steve's view) = online business, blogging, etc.

it's to make you think, question and not to believe on mere faith but with proof. ^^,

[moonrambler]

Sure, we can duplicate it. Erin Pavlina is making money without a job, and Indianapolis pro football quarterback Peyton Manning is making money with a job.

Here in our forum members, some are very generous with their time in helping people learn how to make money. One of those, iampaul99, is making money without a job. Another member, Acting Like Godot, is making money with a job.

[magi13]

then i've made my point ^^, (my previous post)

[Aleksander Krstic]

Originally Posted by moonrambler

Sure, we can duplicate it. Erin Pavlina is making money without a job, and Indianapolis pro football quarterback Peyton Manning is making money with a job.

Here in our forum members, some are very generous with their time in helping people learn how to make money. One of those, iampaul99, is making money without a job. Another member, Acting Like Godot, is making money with a job.

I think when comparing it, you should take other properties into account as well, not only money:for example ammount of fulfilment, joy, etc.

[Kazeko]

A funny thing. Today "the wave of programming" visited me. More than a year ago I quit a high-paid programming job. I was sure I would have never programmed again. (Now I work as system administrator/ tech support guy - for those who're interested).

But today I feel that wave. I feel that feeling . And now I see that programming itself is not bound by any job. Even now I don't want to work as a programmer, to work for salary. But what's interesting - I feel like I still want to program. I've just dropped that stupid limitations, that "prerequisites", that "dead marches", "deadlines", "long hours", "stress management" and other crazy things. I feel like I'm a free coder.

Conclusions:
- Will I ever get a programming job again? I don't think so. (Never say never.)
- Will I program? Right now that idea seems appealing. I should give it a try.

What I wanted to show: the activity itself is not a bad thing at all! What made it bad is a "slave mode" approach. Now I really should try the "free and jobless programmer" perspective....

So, I still hold my point of view - with rare exceptions, jobs are evil! Defeat your boss, like Super Mario! Do not obey him/her! (Tadada-tadada-taaa! - S.M.B. soundtrack, level complete theme )

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by Aleksander Krstic

I think when comparing it, you should take other properties into account as well, not only money:for example ammount of fulfilment, joy, etc.

Of course! That's why I chose examples of people who I think are happy and fulfilled in their work.

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by Kazeko

A funny thing. Today "the wave of programming" visited me. More than a year ago I quit a high-paid programming job. I was sure I would have never programmed again. (Now I work as system administrator/ tech support guy - for those who're interested).

But today I feel that wave. I feel that feeling . And now I see that programming itself is not bound by any job. Even now I don't want to work as a programmer, to work for salary. But what's interesting - I feel like I still want to program. I've just dropped that stupid limitations, that "prerequisites", that "dead marches", "deadlines", "long hours", "stress management" and other crazy things. I feel like I'm a free coder.

Conclusions:
- Will I ever get a programming job again? I don't think so. (Never say never.)
- Will I program? Right now that idea seems appealing. I should give it a try.

What I wanted to show: the activity itself is not a bad thing at all! What made it bad is a "slave mode" approach. Now I really should try the "free and jobless programmer" perspective....

So, I still hold my point of view - with rare exceptions, jobs are evil! Defeat your boss, like Super Mario! Do not obey him/her! (Tadada-tadada-taaa! - S.M.B. soundtrack, level complete theme )

I am going to agree here that unfortunately, most programming jobs do seem to be . . . well, maybe not evil . . . but certainly a stupid way to have to live.

On the other hand, there's such a boatload of money in freelance coding work and about 300 trillion opportunities at any given moment, which makes me wonder why anybody has a programming "job."

[Plato]

Hasn't Steve said that he wants people to live consciously?

Don't most people just assume they should get a job? Most people who don't have have chosen to go against the status quo.

Wouldn't an article bashing jobs stir more people from slumber than a well balanced polite essay?

"Oh my, I'd never seen that. Thanks Plato, you're the BEST!"

Gee, well you know, I try my best.

[st33med]

Originally Posted by Plato

"Oh my, I'd never seen that. Thanks Plato, you're the BEST!"

Well, I saw that mainly because you are me .

Few things to add: If you are happy with your job in general and don't mind trading your time for money, then go ahead keep on doing what you are doing.

But, if you don't like your job (eg: hate being bossed around, yelled at over the littlest things, etc.), well, either you are attached to the money you are making for it (greed), or you enjoy having to be yelled at (people-pleaser). Don't be afraid to explore self-employment! Even if you are happy with you're job, don't think that there is no happiness to be gained from creating your own business.

One thing I think enterprises today are missing is having their employed as the same rank as everyone else rather than a complete hierarchy. A group can voice concerns and ideas equally to everyone, while the hierarchy takes a long time to get comments progressed from employee to boss, to the bosses' boss, to that bosses' boss, etc.