Can Spirits Help You Win at Gambling? A Las Vegas Field Test (Blog)

[Savage]

Use this thread to discuss the following entry from Steve Pavlina's blog:

Can Spirits Help You Win at Gambling? A Las Vegas Field Test

[supertom]

"he can’t do anything that would interfere with human free will, mainly because the nature of reality prevents it"

what else did he say about the nature of reality?? BTW i remember in the seth books that we're given free-will and self-determination and we will always have those, its our right.

[enyi]

Hi Steve,

I've enjoyed a lot of your writing since I discovered your blog -specially since the raw food diet series- but this is the first time I participate on the forums.

I find your latest articles about the "other side" quite shocking. I tend not to dismiss anything as "impossible", -as I like to believe anything is possible- even though I am biased towards the things that make more sense to me when it comes to practical things.

I saw about your recommended reading list from a reply of yours on this forum, as I was about to ask you for something like that, but I also have another question if you find the time to help me out (or anyone else for that matter).

Although I do find spiritual subjects quite interesting, it appears to me that most people that advertise themselves as "spiritual" are full of it. I've attended hermetics meetings for example, and people there just seem disconnected with what they talk about. How do you now when someone isn't really spiritual? How do you find those who are?

Also, besides your reading list, is there anything else one can do to explore this fascinating world of spirituality?

Well, now that I wrote this long post, what the heck, I'll throw you a controversial question which I hope you can give me your views on. What do you think about the view that people that eat meat are unable to ever achieve enlightement due to the very nature of what they do?

I ask because even do I haven't eaten meat since I was 3, recently I did the raw food experiment, and now that I went back to cooked food I can feel a big difference (which I didn't feel when I was on the raw diet) and a tremendous pull to go back to that, so I kind of wonder what the difference would be for those who eat meat and how that affects their/our spirit.

Please don't start a flame war, I just want to know your views (all of you

Kind regards,
Ivan

PS: I've never had a mentor, but I feel like you've become a great one for me. You've helped me explore many amazing things about life, and for that, I sincerely thank you

[Will Worth]

Hi guys-

Although I do feel Steve deserves his "full positive karma supply", this does raise interesting questions about any absolute definition of good/bad behaviour. If you are connected to all, and part of the totality of consciousness, how can you detach from the situation in order to judge the relative merits of your actions? I know this is fairly elementary stuff for students of philisophy, but it's interesting trying to analyse it through the lens of Steve's belief system.

I hope this doesn't seem too tangential!

Also, I'd love to read about the excercises he and Erin did to free his energy, as he suggested he might write. Is this similar to the banishing rituals of the occult?

Love and light to one and all

Will

[supertom]

interesting about the energy drain, i have been feeling it lately too. Would love a blog on energy work

[GreenTea]

Woa. Still laughing about the wack factor of this article. Steve, your warnings about the craziness were also in themselves hilarious to me.

I have a question about the karma stuff, which is: What's the deal with the karma stuff??

"Then he showed me what looked like an energy meter that revealed a full positive karma supply. He suggested that I’d earned a lot of positive karma because of the work I’ve done with my blog. He seemed to be half-joking as he said this, as if he found my original question amusing."

You do mention "he seemed to be half joking", but for me this is the craziest sounding part of the whole article. Any clarifying thoughts? Do you believe in karma in this sense? (Recently I've been thinking that karma is past conditioning..??)

And thanks for your courage in posting this

[Paul C]

To think, this sort of article would have turned my perspective of the world up-side down about a year ago.

That was an interesting read, especially about how your energy got drained from the constant interactions. I'm yet to experience this sort of communication (at least nothing definite), so my curiosity for this has increased.

I'm thinking I have more meditation to do...

Thanks for posting, once again.

[tomn8er]

This article was certainly an interesting one . I found the part about free will to be confusing however, especially this part:

According to Ron, it is NOT spiritually permitted to override a skeptic’s freedom to choose their beliefs; in practice this means that skeptics always have to have an out. Either they can’t be there to see what would shock them, or they have to be able to dismiss such reports as false, exaggerated, pure luck, etc. A skeptic cannot be shown proof of what they doubt.

This doesn't make any sense to me. Science proves certain things to be true and false in a very convincing manner, such that it forces people to give up their old beliefs for new knowledge. Like when Galileo proved that the Earth was round - this meant that everybody would have to abandon their long-held belief that the Earth was flat. Isn't this exactly what Ron said was morally wrong - for people to be shown proof of what they doubt?

So why is this immoral when it comes to matters of spirituality? If it is the case that certain spiritual beliefs are true and others are bunk, then why encourage people to hold onto their inaccurate religious beliefs? What makes matters of spirituality/religion morally immune to criticism?

I realize that Steve is just relaying what Ron said to him, but since I can't ask Ron directly I'll have to ask Steve and my fellow readers for some explanation.

[ellie]

What do you think of the idea that the spirit wasn't actually Ron at all, rather evil spirits/devil whatever you want to call it, preying on the idea that you would believe it is Ron and so they are able to feed off you. Hence why you were getting a very drained feeling.

The reason I say this, is that Ron sounded quite different to how he was in his actual life. In a few weeks, do you think it would that easy for him to change his persona, even if he turned to a spirit? From the sounds of it, if it was Ron, it sounds like we change our values when we reach the other side.

Just a different perspective.

[supertom]

Originally Posted by ellie

What do you think of the idea that the spirit wasn't actually Ron at all, rather evil spirits/devil whatever you want to call it, preying on the idea that you would believe it is Ron and so they are able to feed off you. Hence why you were getting a very drained feeling.

The reason I say this, is that Ron sounded quite different to how he was in his actual life. In a few weeks, do you think it would that easy for him to change his persona, even if he turned to a spirit? From the sounds of it, if it was Ron, it sounds like we change our values when we reach the other side.

Just a different perspective.

nice topic for disscussion.... but since nothing can hurt you, just drive right in, if its not good than you'll know, you cant sit on the sidelines and wait for the answers, play the game.

[ellie]

But things can hurt you... I heard of accounts were evil spirits attack.

[Savage]

Originally Posted by tomn8er

This doesn't make any sense to me. Science proves certain things to be true and false in a very convincing manner, such that it forces people to give up their old beliefs for new knowledge. Like when Galileo proved that the Earth was round - this meant that everybody would have to abandon their long-held belief that the Earth was flat. Isn't this exactly what Ron said was morally wrong - for people to be shown proof of what they doubt?

So why is this immoral when it comes to matters of spirituality? If it is the case that certain spiritual beliefs are true and others are bunk, then why encourage people to hold onto their inaccurate religious beliefs? What makes matters of spirituality/religion morally immune to criticism?

I realize that Steve is just relaying what Ron said to him, but since I can't ask Ron directly I'll have to ask Steve and my fellow readers for some explanation.

Your concept of science is part of your reality. Galileo is part of your reality. A round earth is part of your reality. These are all congruent with your beliefs about the nature of your reality.

Your beliefs aren't inaccurate. They're create-ive.

[Savage]

Originally Posted by ellie

What do you think of the idea that the spirit wasn't actually Ron at all, rather evil spirits/devil whatever you want to call it, preying on the idea that you would believe it is Ron and so they are able to feed off you. Hence why you were getting a very drained feeling.

The reason I say this, is that Ron sounded quite different to how he was in his actual life. In a few weeks, do you think it would that easy for him to change his persona, even if he turned to a spirit? From the sounds of it, if it was Ron, it sounds like we change our values when we reach the other side.

Just a different perspective.

I think either perspective is valid.

[Sam988]

Very interesting. I am amazed at how people can have such huge differences in their experiences of life. The way you say it, steve, i know you're not lying, it just amazes me. This experience of yours and Erin's constant experiences, it's all so, like, "far out there". I really wish that a spiritual realm exists, and spirits and angels as well. I don't want to die and have my consciousness to cease, but that's the way i see reality, but i would love to be convinced that there's more out there. Which brings it to the second part of my post.


Someone in the topic already quoted the same part i am going to quote, and my question is quite similar:

As it turns out, maintaining consistency with the skeptics’ version of reality is pretty important. According to Ron, it is NOT spiritually permitted to override a skeptic’s freedom to choose their beliefs; in practice this means that skeptics always have to have an out. Either they can’t be there to see what would shock them, or they have to be able to dismiss such reports as false, exaggerated, pure luck, etc. A skeptic cannot be shown proof of what they doubt.

I'm a skeptic. If i weren't, i'd still be a hardcore christian as i was raised to be, with a very narrow view of reality. Skepticism is what has opened my eyes; in my situation, if i had faith in the unseen i would still be attending churches and church events like 3 times a week and living in delusions.


So if it's not spiritually permitted to override a skeptic's freedom to choose his beliefs, i can only think of it as a really unfair "spiritual rule". Spirits should want to show the truth, by allowing their channelers (psychics) to do demonstrations of supernatural power so that people can get convinced. I mean, why wouldn't that be desirable!? It's like the pastors in my previous church, why wouldn't God allow them to make displays of divine power (like Moses maybe, trning wooden sticks into snakes, or Jesus turning water into wine?) other than those silly emotional turmoils people had in the middle of cults?


It's not that skeptics don't want to accept it or it's "too much for them". It's just that there is not one, single, proof. All it would take for me to believe in another form of reality is actually seing ONE thing that i would not be able to explain. Is it too much to ask from the spirits? If it is, then why is it? Why can Ron's spirit intervene enough in reality to make you have all those amazing wins in blackjack (for no real purpose other than to train his supernatural skills and help toastmasters a bit?) while a similar display of spiritual intervention in reality could completely change the way another person views reality, benefitting this person much more than the one who got a few hundreds of bucks in some blackjack game?

[Michelle]

By the end of last week, I began feeling really strange. Physically I felt okay, but I felt like I lost all interest in life. I became totally lazy and unmotivated. I could barely motivate myself to eat — everything seemed way too effortful. I just wanted to sit on the couch and read. That was about all I did on Saturday.

I thought maybe I needed some extra rest, so I tried to take a nap. I lay down for an hour but couldn’t sleep at all. I wasn’t sleepy. I felt like I’d lost all interest in life. I can’t say I felt depressed. I just felt totally empty.

Partly I wanted to go out on Saturday night, figuring that being around other people would help restore my energy and enthusiasm. But I let those plans slide. I thought, “Eh… why bother?” I was totally apathetic. The only thing I felt like doing was absolutely nothing.

I have been feeling like this since June which is when I started working regularly with angels! It would be great to read more about this!

[tomn8er]

Originally Posted by Sam988

So if it's not spiritually permitted to override a skeptic's freedom to choose his beliefs, i can only think of it as a really unfair "spiritual rule". Spirits should want to show the truth, by allowing their channelers (psychics) to do demonstrations of supernatural power so that people can get convinced. I mean, why wouldn't that be desirable!?

Yes! That's more or less what I was trying to get at with my argument on science. I also would like to witness convincing evidence that there is more to reality than meets the eye, but it's more than a personal thing; think of how revolutionary it would be for humanity to have widespread spiritual knowledge. I can only believe this would enhance our perspective of reality and help us overcome many of the problems we have today, so if many people have to leave the comfort of their current religious/metaphysical beliefs behind ... too bad!!! Unless it turns out that the afterlife is actually some version of Hell (in which case I would prefer to remain ignorant), then the overriding of religious beliefs is a justifiable loss.

This "spiritual rule" does seem very unfair. Why make us live in ignorance by not revealing the truth? Even if that truth turns out to be that truth itself is entirely up to the individual, they (spirits) could at least convey this message to us!

To claim that revealing such truth would be immoral is backwards. NOT showing us the truth is the greater crime IMO.

[OlderWiser]

Originally Posted by tomn8er

Science proves certain things to be true and false in a very convincing manner, such that it forces people to give up their old beliefs for new knowledge.

It's only convincing if you're willing to be convinced. I know of many, many people who are in absolute denial of things that can be quite convincingly shown by scientific research. For example, there is a whole group out there who deny that HIV causes AIDS. There are people who insist that vaccinations cause autism. There are people who are adamant that certain aspects of medicine and science are faked, lies, part of some big conspiracy, etc.

If you honestly believe that "everyone" accepts the findings of science as "truth", you need to get out more. I suggest doing some research on the field of "denialism" and doing some reading on some websites about medical quackery if you want to know about people who cannot or will not be swayed by science.

Originally Posted by tomn8er

Like when Galileo proved that the Earth was round - this meant that everybody would have to abandon their long-held belief that the Earth was flat.

What do you mean "everybody"? There are STILL people who sincerely seem to believe that the world is flat. Yes, really.

Your belief that everyone will automatically accept something if "science" says it's so is way off the mark. People only believe what they choose to believe, no matter what "evidence" you put in front of them. It's as simple as that.

Originally Posted by tomn8er

Why make us live in ignorance by not revealing the truth? Even if that truth turns out to be that truth itself is entirely up to the individual, they (spirits) could at least convey this message to us!

That's not quite it. You CHOOSE your own beliefs. You CHOOSE what you will accept, what you will see, what you will believe, and those beliefs filter and alter what you see and experience.

If you want to see miracles, start believing in them. Until you believe in the possibilities (or at least open yourself to them), no spirit, deity, entity, or person can shoehorn experiences into your life that you are not willing to have.

[tomn8er]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Your concept of science is part of your reality. Galileo is part of your reality. A round earth is part of your reality. These are all congruent with your beliefs about the nature of your reality.

Your beliefs aren't inaccurate. They're create-ive.

Well if I "created" Galileo, I definitely wasn't consciously aware of it.

I've read your ideas on subjective reality, but in the end I've got to say that even if it is true that everything in my reality is a product of my own consciousness, it would be more accurate to say that the vast majority of it is the product of my unconscious mind. And if I can't consciously change it (ex. like I can't change the law of gravity, for instance), then how is that effectively any different than objective reality?

Slightly off topic now, I know. It just seemed relevant to show where I'm coming from, because to me, that answer Steve was something of a cop out.

[tomn8er]

Originally Posted by OlderWiser

If you want to see miracles, start believing in them. Until you believe in the possibilities (or at least open yourself to them), no spirit, deity, entity, or person can shoehorn experiences into your life that you are not willing to have.

Well that makes some sense at least. I do want to believe in them, but I suspect some deeper part myself is still in denial about such things. I guess wanting to believe and actually believing are two different things aren't they? Anyway, I am quite confident that I will come across more convincing evidence over time. I think the source of all my frustration stems from my own youthful impatience, which I have in abundance.

[sorenbronsted]

Interesting article. Can you ask Ron what was it about the water bottle? Why did it make things work?

[OlderWiser]

Originally Posted by tomn8er

I guess wanting to believe and actually believing are two different things aren't they?

Yes. But wanting is the first step to intending.

I've actually quite recently figured out that I can change beliefs almost at will. Yes, some are pretty deeply ingrained and take more effort. I haven't managed to believe that gravity doesn't affect me, but I haven't really tried.

But, yeah, I can pretty much decide to believe or not believe something at will. It was extremely startling to discover this, and it has opened whole new horizons and possibilities.

[jackal]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Your concept of science is part of your reality. Galileo is part of your reality. A round earth is part of your reality. These are all congruent with your beliefs about the nature of your reality.

Your beliefs aren't inaccurate. They're create-ive.

Steve, I think you're contradicting yourself here. You said that one of the themes in your book is about embracing truth. How can you then speak of spirits and every person having his own reality?

I am a little bit disappointed actually...

Jack Alexander

[Trezker]

Originally Posted by jackal

Steve, I think you're contradicting yourself here. You said that one of the themes in your book is about embracing truth. How can you then speak of spirits and every person having his own reality?

I am a little bit disappointed actually...

Jack Alexander

One truth is that there may be no absolute truth. Working towards truth means coming to terms with what is true for you. Striving for perfection is a process in which you pass through subjective truths. We don't know if there is a final answer to everything, some people think it's 42 and are trying to find the question.

Striving for truth is like growing in Go. You will probably never know the perfect way to play. So you have to make do with patterns that work and keep searching for deeper truth by playing outside your comfort zone.

If you aim to win, you don't learn much. But if you aim to grow, you become stronger and the wins just happen automagically.

[wynlim]

I don't post very often and I am definitely not into scientific theories so please cut some slack on me if I don't sound coherent.

My understanding of the spiritual law that Ron mentioned is that, it exists because we all have our own individual journeys to trod through before we can be ready for the next milestone.

Many of us go through an intense spiritual awakening after going through a lot of pain, suffering, growth, lessons. Everyone has a different route, and thus, a different time span.

This is not restricted to within one lifetime, our 'lessons' take place over several lifetimes, well if some of you read erin's blog you will know what I am talking about. Basically if you don't learn your supposed lesson this lifetime you'll just have to do it over the next.

The reason why the spirits are not allowed to change the mind of a skeptic is because the skeptic in question would not have been 'ready'. If this particular person has not been through enough 'spiritual growth', then it would be akin to teaching a elementary school kid complicated science theories.

If one is truly ready, then he/she wouldn't even need to be shown proof. I have never seen a spirit myself, but I simply know and believe they exist. If one day they decide to show up in front of me I'll probably be a little ruffled but I won't go nuts because I already know they're there all this while.

Spiritual growth and lessons are not stuff that can be explained in words. I cannot really explain how I come to this stage of my life, or how come some people start to question their faiths and some people just don't.

Some of us know there is a different world out there, different from what we're brought up to believe, not because we are really skeptics, but because somehow we can feel the other reality. Probably in our previous lifetimes we have done enough to be spiritually aware.

I am writing this from my own spiritual p.o.v in an attempt to answer your questions above so please do not start a flame war on me if you cannot accept what I wrote.

[ArthurHung]

Can you make a post about the first time you were able to see a spirit guide?

And was it from then on that you were always able to see them?

Would you consider making a post that would help those who already believe and have seen too many syncronicities to count, to do so themselves? I am more interested in your specific perspective, rather than Erins on this one, if it's the case she's been able to do so all her life.

[JustBe]

First of all, really a fascinating story.

I can sit in the energy while meditating. And those healings

are truly working fantastic.

But I have so much difficulties how to communicate with spirits.

I learned that 'seeing' or 'hearing' can take time but communication

by 'sensing thoughts' is quite possible.

I really am at the moment to explore further communication with my guides but I

don't know what I can do to really have conversations with them.

Hope anyone can help with this?

[fountainAtlas]

Steve,

I have read many of your post and I found a great deal of them to be helpful (time management). This is difficult for me to say and I am really trying not to be condescending or anything. But sometimes, people really go a little too far into themselves. I cannot call you weird, for you are too wealthy, but you are obviously eccentric (and I know you don't mind/care that is how I refer to you).

Are you sure you do not want to do a check for lead in your cooking gear, or mercury, or some other pollutants in your food supply. It is possible that I only view this as "impossible" because of some of my own limiting beliefs, but it is also "possible" that you may be going crazy.

I hope you continue to write about personal development, about list making and time management.

Lastly, I am sorry for your loss.

-FountainAtlas

[ArthurHung]

For the few that want to think objectively, albeit mockingly, about these kinds of posts and at the same time enjoy Steve's more "down to earth" posts, consider the possibility that if Steve stuck to writing those kinds of posts, his motivation for blogging would decrease, and you would get even less of it.

How inspired would Da Vinci be if he only painted and never stepped out of his comfort zone? How much less of an impact would he have had on humanity?

[Spartan]

As it turns out, maintaining consistency with the skeptics’ version of reality is pretty important. According to Ron, it is NOT spiritually permitted to override a skeptic’s freedom to choose their beliefs; in practice this means that skeptics always have to have an out. Either they can’t be there to see what would shock them, or they have to be able to dismiss such reports as false, exaggerated, pure luck, etc. A skeptic cannot be shown proof of what they doubt.

Why? Skeptics won't break down in tears and go on a murderous rampage just because they are proved wrong you know. I consider it more immoral to simply discriminate against the less gullible.

Also, you talk about free will as if everone has absolute freedom over their beliefs. I disagree. Choices are determined by our beliefs and desires, but the causal chain doesn't stop there. Our beliefs and desires are caused by our past experiences and biological make-up. Hence, we have free will, but only in the sense that we could have done otherwise if our biological make-up and past experiences, and hence beliefs and desires had been different.

Furthermore, it is impossible that anything can be attributed meaning outside of the context of our language. Humans exist, they invent language and words like good and bad, then they ascribe the definition of those words to other things in existence. 'Existence precedes essence'. Thus without humans there would be no good or bad. Hence any absolute Karmic meaning of the words good and bad, as you allude to, is impossible.

[pterodactyl]

These posts about your experiences with Ron after he died are fascinating. Perhaps, with Erin's help, you could continue these experiments and present the results as your next book. Of course, it would require a lot more late night gambling and other escapades that are relatively incompatible with your healthy lifestyle, but if it's for research purposes... I think these (and other) articles of yours could be turned into a movie script-- guy grieving his dead friend suddenly tunes in to the right spiritual channel and is guided through various growth-promoting adventures. "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" meets "What Dreams May Come."