"There was one math class that I only showed up to twice"

[Lupe]

"There was one math class that I only showed up to twice because I could learn from the text book much more quickly than from the lectures."

Dear Mr. Pavlina,

Does this mean that there were any efficient/worthwhile lectures?

[Dan.Linehan]

Math lectures were never very helpful for me either.

What is your question again Lupe? Do you mean, were there good lectures in other classes?

[Lupe]

Yes that's what I mean.

[Dan.Linehan]

I can't speak for Steve, but personally, I learned a lot from economics lectures and some from philosophy lectures too.

Depends a lot on the professor. Are you debating going to college?

[yossarian]

Math lectures are notoriously useless. This doesn't apply to many other subjects

[Calculusaurus]

Originally Posted by yossarian

Math lectures are notoriously useless. This doesn't apply to many other subjects

This has not been my experience at all. I was a math major.

Lupe, I'll give it to you straight -- it depends entirely on the professor. And the professor usually depends on the institution. Upper tier schools generally hire better professors and have much stricter tenure policies.

One of my professors was rated #1 prof in the US by rolling stone magazine. Why would I skip one of his classes?

In my experience, 90% of my classes were taught efficiently. I rarely missed a class, simply because it'd be stupid of me not to go. When you have smart profs with a passion for teaching you can learn a lot more in a 1h lecture than from 1h in the library. My classes were small, profs were interactive, and we would interrupt the prof constantly with questions. Very efficient learning.

It also depends on your learning style. I know you hear a lot about auditory learners and visual learners and whatnot -- but all of that is very true. If you're a poor auditory learner then maybe skipping a class would be OK.

I went to college out of a passion for learning, not a means to and end, not a march toward financial/career responsibility. So that might have something to do with it.

[Calculusaurus]

Lupe, I have an honest question for you.

Are you debating college? Are you using our (or just Steve's) answers here on the forum to make your decision for you? What's your situation?

[Lupe]

Originally Posted by Calculusaurus

Lupe, I have an honest question for you.

Are you debating college? Are you using our (or just Steve's) answers here on the forum to make your decision for you? What's your situation?

I signed up for college for this fall, but am considering last minute cancel.

Learning things that I'm not interested in seems like waste of time to me, especially when done by lectures (and paying a ton for those), because my experience in high school is that pretty much all lectures were very inefficient.

[Sam988]

Some people learn better by just reading the subject on the book while others prefer to see someone there explain the concepts to him.


I personally prefer to just read about it all, i learn MUCH faster and more efficiently.


After the person "learns how to learn", going to classes is only optional because the person can learn just as well and much faster by studying by himself.

[Calculusaurus]

Originally Posted by Lupe

I signed up for college for this fall, but am considering last minute cancel.

Learning things that I'm not interested in seems like waste of time to me, especially when done by lectures (and paying a ton for those), because my experience in high school is that pretty much all lectures were very inefficient.

Yeah, that's a difficult situation. I don't think I would go if I didn't love what I was learning. First 2 years were more difficult for me because I had to take distribution credits (classes outside my major). Last 2 years were very rewarding because I only took classes within my major.

Either way, you won't be able to connect the dots forward. Who knows, maybe staying in college will lead you to some great opportunities, but this is true for not going to college as well.

I'm not fit to give you any advice, though. I was in college because I was learning what I was passionate about and was on a financial aid package so it was affordable. I'm guessing my situation was very different from your current one. And that's OK of course, but my posts might apply to other readers better than it applies to you.

[coLLege kid07]

Originally Posted by Lupe

I signed up for college for this fall, but am considering last minute cancel.

Learning things that I'm not interested in seems like waste of time to me, especially when done by lectures (and paying a ton for those), because my experience in high school is that pretty much all lectures were very inefficient.

I think it all depends on what you want to do with your life. If you're going to college to do something you really enjoy than I say go for it. But if your undecided and/or have other plans for your future than it's your choice...

[Sentient]

Originally Posted by coLLege kid07

I think it all depends on what you want to do with your life. If you're going to college to do something you really enjoy than I say go for it. But if your undecided and/or have other plans for your future than it's your choice...

I skipped about 75% of all of my classes over 4 years just because I was lazy and didn't like class. (I'm not advocating blowing off your studies..that would truly be a bad idea. I went to a very good school and still made sure I graduated with honors) Despite that, I would never trade college for the world. The most important class by far, 10x more important than anything else I studied, was my mental and social development.

I learned how to get along with other people, how to like myself, how to develop confidence, how to do things that scare me. Hell, I learned how to meet, date and get rejected by women..and come out alive. Sure, you can get those things other places too, but college had virtually nothing to do with education for me. It was all about social development, and wow would I be lost if I didn't have that experience.

If you look at life as all about learning or working or you always have the "end" in mind you could end up missing a lot of wonderful experiences. I mean, I got a great job after graduation too and then bailed on it after just 1.5 years (working past 2 AM on your bday will do that) to follow my own path and passions. How could I have ever predicted that? If I hadn't developed the confidence in myself to follow my passions and believe that I'll succeed at whatever I do, I probably wouldn't have left that job. I would have stayed behind and just complained about my job like everyone else, and my life would have stagnated.

Don't worry about the end, just give yourself the opportunity to develop as an individual. That's perhaps your best gift. College is a wonderful place to do that.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Sam988

Some people learn better by just reading the subject on the book while others prefer to see someone there explain the concepts to him.

I personally prefer to just read about it all, i learn MUCH faster and more efficiently.

For me, this depends on the subject. I can certainly see math being easier to learn through self-study - especially if the professor is just lecturing. There's no substitute for being able to ask questions of a live human being though.

[Sentient]

How many here actually use ANYTHING that they were taught in school? I'm still surprised how learning centric this debate is as opposed to experience centric.

I graduated with a double major in Finance and Accounting. I went to work for a hedge fund. Guess how much of my finance I used when I went there...virtually nothing. They trained me again from the ground up. I actually had a 9 month training program that was harder than anything in University. My friends all reported the same thing as has anyone I've ever spoken to (outside maybe a few select fields). Your classes go unused, and you learn on the job.

I've never thought that what you learn in school matters really. You forget all of it anyway. What you don't forget, rarely turns out to be relevant to your life.

It's still perhaps the most valuable experience in your life because of the way it changes who you are as a person. I don't know anywhere else where you get automatic enrollment into a social skills development class simultaneously being taken by a few other 1000 people your age and in your peer group. Since everything in life boils down to who you are and how you show up, isn't this more important??

[Lupe]

Originally Posted by Sentient

Since everything in life boils down to who you are and how you show up, isn't this more important??

Could you explain this more?

[Tasaio]

Since everything in life boils down to who you are and how you show up, isn't this more important??

Wrong. Life doesn't boil down to who you are nor "how you show up", assuming the latter refers to others' perceptions of you.

People can change who they are. Even their fundamental personaly querks can be changed, or at very least redirected in healthier ways. How many apathetic personalities have discovered their passion after finding Steve's site?

Think about it--why should college change a person any more than high school or a job? Most students coast through college and do just enough to scrape by. Ask any professor.

I've never thought that what you learn in school matters really. You forget all of it anyway. What you don't forget, rarely turns out to be relevant to your life.

No, you don't forget what you learn if you reinforce the knowledge on a regular basis. Most people do thin through their jobs, others through reading, and still others from SRS systems.

It's still perhaps the most valuable experience in your life because of the way it changes who you are as a person. I don't know anywhere else where you get automatic enrollment into a social skills development class simultaneously being taken by a few other 1000 people your age and in your peer group.

I do--a military academy!

Personally, I wouldn't spend $20,000 upwards on a degree for the social experience, but that's because it's not an area of interest for me. It sounds to me, Lupe, like it isn't an area of interest of yours either.

I'm going to recommend what I do for everyone else--audit courses before you go. Ask youself, "Can I see myself spending the next four years in this kind of environmnt?"

[Lupe]

Personally, I wouldn't spend $20,000 upwards on a degree for the social experience, but that's because it's not an area of interest for me. It sounds to me, Lupe, like it isn't an area of interest of yours either.

I'm going to recommend what I do for everyone else--audit courses before you go. Ask youself, "Can I see myself spending the next four years in this kind of environmnt?"

I agree with that; you can create a social experience for free by creating a club by putting up advertisement for chess club or whatever.

Also lectures feel like hell to me, because it is so inefficient.

I wish I had parents who would leave me to decide, not ones who say and think that not going to college automatically guarantees your failure at life.

[tekomino]

Originally Posted by Lupe

Also lectures feel like hell to me, because it is so inefficient.

That's becouse you are fighting them instead of accepting them.

Originally Posted by Lupe

I wish I had parents who would leave me to decide, not ones who say and think that not going to college automatically guarantees your failure at life.

Can't claim to know your parents, but parents in general have tendency to try to not let kids repeat their mistakes. Finishing college is good character builder. If you can't do that, and I mean it fairly easy, how are you supposed to do something that is far more difficult like building your business?

[Sentient]

Tasiao, I would be the first to agree with you when you say that you can change. When I said life is about who you are and how you show up I meant more that your state of development in those two areas (which is always ongoing) has perhaps the biggest influence on your happiness.

The more I work on who I am and how present I can be (how you show up is really nebulous but give me the benefit of the doubt and just focus on the gist of what I'm attempting to get at) the better my life becomes.

My point was simply that if I look at the things I am most grateful for, it's really my social experiences and development. Ironically, I'm perhaps one of the biggest proponents of self learning since almost everything I do today I taught myself from near 0 experience.

You just need to make sure you get your social quota one way or another. I am perhaps a bit biased because I studied "dating sciences" for a while and a lot of the guys I met were *incredibly* awkward and I felt really bad for them. Not being able to relate to others comfortably and pick up on matters relating to social intuition is just a huge handicap and having suffered through a lot of it (college fixng much of it for me) I am biased to whatever can help others avoid that pain.

Is college the only way? Of course not, but please please please don't overlook its importance. That's the only thing I was getting at. If you're going to make a holistic decision about whether it's worth it, just include social development in your decision making. And if you decide to pass on college, make sure you locate proper resource for nourishing both your mental and social aspects in other places.

[andreelerowes]

Lupe, you can always wait and go to college when you are ready to; that is, when you know why you want to be there. When I was 13, I decided to be a musician and knew from then on out that I wanted to go to music school and study classical music. I knew what I was getting into, I knew what kinds of classes I was going to have to take, and I started preparing myself for this path. I had already been taking lessons and playing in ensembles, so I started reading more books on music, asking more questions, exploring other styles of music, tried out other instruments, and so on. When I got to college, I was prepared and did well. I also discovered at college that I was a bit unusual in this regard -- most kids did not do what I had done, regardless of their major. I noticed a ton of people majoring in business because they didn't know what else to do and thought it was "useful." Or their parents told them that's what they should major in.

The people I was most impressed with, however, were the "non-trads" -- the students who didn't go to college right away or had come, dropped out, and were coming back. They were people who were really focused and passionate, smart and experienced. My roommate my freshman year was a 24-year-old freshman, a Chinese-Vietnamese refugee who had escaped from Vietnam on a raft, ended up in Germany for a few years before moving to Massachusetts. Her family ran a restaurant and she worked there after high-school. She started off as a bio-chemistry major, but eventually switched to German, because she realized that's where her passion lay. She was ready for college because she had spent so much time working; it made her amazingly disciplined. Then there was my friend from my sophomore year, who I went on exchange to Germany with (I lived in the foreign-language dorm, to get extra practice): she had gone to the same school, but didn't know what she wanted to do and was just partying all the time. A professor had pulled her aside one day and told her to stop wasting her time and her parent's money -- leave school and come back when you're ready. So she dropped out, got a job in Switzerland for five years, and came back ready to hit the books, got As and Bs instead of Cs and Ds... My sister worked for five years, became interested in marketing, and had accumulated some credits through night courses. When she enrolled full-time, she had enough credits to qualify as a junior, finished her degree in two years with a 4.0gpa. Now she runs her own business. Another friend volunteered for AIDS crisis organizations and worked as an EMT for five years; now she's a nurse. Another friend dropped out of two schools and then ended up doing tech support for Harvard Business School, because he had taught himself so well. And so on and so on. The point is that you can do so many, many things other than going to college when you're clearly not excited about college. There are better ways to find out what you're interested in than going directly to college but not actually engaging in the academic experience. Just make sure that the time you spend not going to college is spent on 'growth experiences' -- not merely at some dead-end job you hate (although, that can be a growth experience, too). I know it'll be a lot of work getting your parents to understand that you're not interested in going to college yet. You'll help your case by having some other plan to show them: an internship, a job, a work-abroad program, an Outward Bound program, a City Year program. You have some homework to do -- a reconnaissance mission of sorts. Figure out what your options are, figure out what sounds exciting to you, and show your parents how you'll make it work.

There seems to be a debate about what college is for when you could just teach yourself. I'm a big fan of self-education, but similar to Mr. Pavlina's views on employment, I think it helps to think of any education situation as self-education. Even if you are taking private lessons or enrolled in college, you are still ultimately responsible for what and how much you learn. The benefit of working with a living, breathing teacher as opposed to just a book, is that they help organize the materials for you (which has its plusses and minuses, but for now let's assume it's mostly plusses) and you can access their knowledge and experience in real time. You can have an active dialogue, which doesn't quite happen with a book. If there's a class of other students involved, then you have access to their knowledge and experience, too. Yes, you might end up in a class full of jerks and putzes, but there's something to learn from that, too. (Or, alternately, you made that happen using LoA for some ungodly reason...) At college you can surround yourself with like-minded people who are equally excited about what you are excited about. Yes, you can do all of these things outside of college, but you'd have to do all the organizational work on top of all the learning and skill building work. There's a reason why universities have been around for hundreds of years; people learn well in a community setting. More importantly, one learns differently in a social setting than learning on one's own. One is not better than the other, nor are they mutually exclusive. It's all part of a spectrum of learning and pedagogical styles that you should tap into as much as possible.

Good luck!

[Lupe]

I know it'll be a lot of work getting your parents to understand that you're not interested in going to college yet. You'll help your case by having some other plan to show them: an internship, a job, a work-abroad program, an Outward Bound program, a City Year program. You have some homework to do -- a reconnaissance mission of sorts. Figure out what your options are, figure out what sounds exciting to you, and show your parents how you'll make it work.

And if they disagree what do I do?