Angels & demons

[Rouxne van der Walt]

If indeed there's no God in the religious sense of the word, where do the entities angels and demons fit in to the greater scheme of things?

My spirit chose Christianity as initial vehicle towards consciousness which I've now lovingly and respectfully left behind. However, the story goes that the devil is a fallen angel and that he and his demons are up to all kinds of mischief?

Also, I read on Erin's blog that she gets into contact with demons or angels(guides) quite often.

Any views on this?

[pianoperformer]

Well, there are several false conclusions being drawn here:

• Because Christianity is not true, God therefore is not real.
• Because God is not real, there cannot be any spiritual entities.

If you are not careful, this can quickly lead to:

• Because there are no spiritual entities, there is no afterlife.
• Because none of this exists, psychic abilities are not real.

You may or may not believe in a God. Certainly there are other belief systems with one or many gods. You may even just believe in a creative force behind everything, as would most closely identify my beliefs.

However, it remains, even if there is no God, it does not mean that spiritual entities cannot exist. I mean, physical entities still exist, right? And if physical entities exist, then non-physical entities may also exist. If non-physical entities may exist, they may certainly be across the spectrum from positive to negative—i.e., angels and demons, and everything in between.

[Rouxne van der Walt]

Hello Pianoperformer

Thanks for your logic above - it makes sense.

I suppose one's views on spiritual entities closely relate to how one views the after life.

However, the idea of positive and negative spiritual entities reminds of the fight between good and evil - and my current view is that there's in fact no hell, no devil and no threat from any negative entity and that once we die we return to an all loving force - God (if you like) who experienced itself through us in human form.

Which brings us back to non-physical intities - and why they've not "merged" with this eternal force of grace?

[Rouxne van der Walt]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

Well, there are several false conclusions being drawn here:

• Because Christianity is not true, God therefore is not real.
• Because God is not real, there cannot be any spiritual entities.

If you are not careful, this can quickly lead to:

• Because there are no spiritual entities, there is no afterlife.
• Because none of this exists, psychic abilities are not real.

You may or may not believe in a God. Certainly there are other belief systems with one or many gods. You may even just believe in a creative force behind everything, as would most closely identify my beliefs.

However, it remains, even if there is no God, it does not mean that spiritual entities cannot exist. I mean, physical entities still exist, right? And if physical entities exist, then non-physical entities may also exist. If non-physical entities may exist, they may certainly be across the spectrum from positive to negative—i.e., angels and demons, and everything in between.

Hello Pianoperformer

Thanks for your logic above - it makes sense.

I suppose one's views on spiritual entities closely relate to how one views the after life.

However, the idea of positive and negative spiritual entities reminds of the fight between good and evil - and my current view is that there's in fact no hell, no devil and no threat from any negative entity and that once we die we return to an all loving force - God (if you like) who experienced itself through us in human form.

Which brings us back to non-physical intities - and why they've not "merged" with this eternal force of grace?

[Sam988]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

Well, there are several false conclusions being drawn here:

• Because Christianity is not true, God therefore is not real.
• Because God is not real, there cannot be any spiritual entities.

If you are not careful, this can quickly lead to:

• Because there are no spiritual entities, there is no afterlife.
• Because none of this exists, psychic abilities are not real.

Where is the falsity in these conclusions? They are only false or not false depending on the person's point of view.

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

You may or may not believe in a God. Certainly there are other belief systems with one or many gods. You may even just believe in a creative force behind everything, as would most closely identify my beliefs.

However, it remains, even if there is no God, it does not mean that spiritual entities cannot exist. I mean, physical entities still exist, right? And if physical entities exist, then non-physical entities may also exist. If non-physical entities may exist, they may certainly be across the spectrum from positive to negative—i.e., angels and demons, and everything in between.

Yes, non-physical entities may exist, and you know why? Because everything is possible. I may as well believe in a flying spaghetti monster being the creator of the universe and everything in it and that's as true as your beliefs in angels and demons.

[pianoperformer]

Rouxne van der Walt,

Well, just as there are positive and negative people, I believe that there are positive and negative non-physical entities. If you read Erin's blog, she's run into quite a few of them! (It makes for entertaining reading. )

I cannot convince you either way, but I can explain my own beliefs. I believe we are here for our own soul to grow as much as possible, which cannot happen in one lifetime. Therefore, I believe we return to the spiritual realm between lifetimes to review our last life, and to prepare for the next.

I believe that there are different levels to the spiritual world. As you get higher, (higher being a relative term, higher in vibration I should say), the entities become more positive. The negative entities hang around the lower realms, close to the physical, because they can't go any higher. Who they are, I don't know. I don't know if they ever have or will take physical form, or if they are just some sort of weird non-physical negative entity. Maybe they are even just manifestations of people's fears. Either way, I am sure that they exist.

I don't believe in hell or a devil, either, and I'm not saying there is any sort of torture or anything in these lower spiritual realms. Just that there are different vibrations, and the lower ones attract negative entities, who cannot go any higher. That is why people who have died sometimes are stuck around the physical for a while, because they are hanging onto some issue or they feel guilt, fear, etc, and so can't move higher.

As for returning to source, yes that may eventually happen. But I don't think that it happens for each person immediately after they die. I even think I may subscribe to eastern philosophies that say you must reach enlightenment before ending the cycle of reincarnation.

I would like to point out that you are using the term loving. that is of course common, but note that in this dualistic world, everything has its opposite, and therefore no adjective can really be used to describe that source we are discussing. If something is loving, there must also be something that is hateful. This, then, is not source. Only when you abolish all duality can you find source.

[Parthon]

It's hard to discuss this topic subjectively because there are so many views. Christians believe in God, devil, angels and demons but if you mention spirits they freak out, even though they refer to the holy spirit all the time. There are many other religions that believe in many other idealogies, but I'm not familiar with them.

What I can talk about though is what I believe in and also what I see most spiritual but not religious people believe in.

"God" or "Source" as it is called I see as the canvas of the universe, it's the very fabric that allows everything to exist and is also what connects everything and determines the rules and laws of the universe. It's purely what allows reality itself to exist. I believe it's purpose above all is experiencing. I asked the question "Why existance?" and the only definite answer I could come up with is "To experience!" as it's all that makes sense. If this is true, then when we die we return to source, and we are not lost to the universe as the athiests believe.

As for entities, Erin has mentioned that Angels and Devils are just personifications of astral entities. Just like how people can be good or bad, both a part of experience, there can be positive and negative entities. You couldn't properly experience without an abundance of both, as too many of one or the other would be detrimental to experience itself. The labels of Angel or Devil just allows us to better handle these entities.

As for the "fallen" idea of angels, the world has changed and evolved, and with it a greater polarisation. Many entities that were positive might have been weakened and turned negative. Negative entities also could have been redeemed by others, or just evolved themselves and risen to become positive entities. Whether they all started off as positive, negative or neutral is anyone's guess. Perhaps that's a good question to ask one if you ever meet them.

In the end I think the three main graces of God are Existance, Experience and Free Will. This gives us the chance to be good, the chance to redeem ourselves in the pattern of the universe, live a better life and to live in harmony with what is, while at the same time punishing us for our transgressions and making it a challenge the whole way. Life isn't easy or fair, but in the end I think everyone gets what they deserve.

[Erin Pavlina]

Good replies all! I'll just add a couple of things.

Religion is a construct of man used to try to define and understand things that are unknown. Beings and consciousnesses in the ether, as I call it, don't give a darn about religion.

Spirituality, or connecting with Source is what matters. Doesn't matter if you do it in a building or your heart, all they want is for us to remember that we are not alone and that we are conscious beings having a human experience.

At first I didn't believe in Angels either because I figured they were fictitious beings in the Bible. Same as demons. What I discovered after years of experience is that there are entities or beings that vibrate at really low fear-based levels (aka demons) and entities that vibrate at a really high frequency (aka angels). Doesn't matter what you call them. Doesn't matter how they are referred to in our books. We're the ones who put a name on them, not them.

Steve and I refer to them as angels and demons because it's convenient not because there's a religious connotation.

These beings are not of the human consciousness, they are outside the human construct. An analogy would be to say they are heart cells where you and I might be brain cells. But at the highest level, even angels and demons are part of the whole "Body."

[pianoperformer]

So I think the question is, did these entities choose to be either positive or negative? If so, I wonder why.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

What I discovered after years of experience is that there are entities or beings that vibrate at really low fear-based levels (aka demons) and entities that vibrate at a really high frequency (aka angels). Doesn't matter what you call them. Doesn't matter how they are referred to in our books. We're the ones who put a name on them, not them.

I'm sure you didn't mean the comment this way, but it warrants clarification:

It does matter what you call them because preexisting terms have preexisting associations. "Angel" and "Demon" are defined by Christianity and Judaism. If you talk about "angels" most people will assume a Christian context and, if that's not what you mean, then communication will break down.

"Low frequency entities" and "high frequency entities" seems to convey what you mean without all those erroneous associations.

P.S. When I first saw this thread I thought it was going to be about the Dan Brown book.

[pianoperformer]

Originally Posted by Keith

I'm sure you didn't mean the comment this way, but it warrants clarification:

It does matter what you call them because preexisting terms have preexisting associations. "Angel" and "Demon" are defined by Christianity and Judaism. If you talk about "angels" most people will assume a Christian context and, if that's not what you mean, then communication will break down.

"Low frequency entities" and "high frequency entities" seems to convey what you mean without all those erroneous associations.

Maybe, but that's really the only term in existence right now to describe such things. In addition, they aren't the only religion to use such terms, I don't think. I think several philosophies have angels and demons. Maybe we can call them LFE's and HFE's.

Originally Posted by Keith

P.S. When I first saw this thread I thought it was going to be about the Dan Brown book.

Yeah, so not to be off topic but, how is that book? People keep telling me I should read it.

[Erin Pavlina]

Great book.

[RTF671]

Originally Posted by Keith

I'm sure you didn't mean the comment this way, but it warrants clarification:

It does matter what you call them because preexisting terms have preexisting associations. "Angel" and "Demon" are defined by Christianity and Judaism. If you talk about "angels" most people will assume a Christian context and, if that's not what you mean, then communication will break down.

"Low frequency entities" and "high frequency entities" seems to convey what you mean without all those erroneous associations.

P.S. When I first saw this thread I thought it was going to be about the Dan Brown book.

It makes sense that in a narrow sense it does matter but in a wider sense it does not matter to individual beings what you call them. It does not change anything about them.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

Maybe, but that's really the only term in existence right now to describe such things.

So make up a new one. Peasy.

Originally Posted by RTF671

It makes sense that in a narrow sense it does matter but in a wider sense it does not matter to individual beings what you call them. It does not change anything about them.

Oh yeah, agreed. It's purely for ease of communication between we humans...

[Rouxne van der Walt]

Thanks for all the input.

I assume that although these entities are heart cells (and we are brain cells) of the same body - they have their own incarnation/way of reaching source?

It would be great to know that even lower vibrational entities have the potential to evolve. I see us humans opening up to higher consciousness levels as an increasing influx of grace from source, and can't see why these entities would be "left out there" without the same grant.

In addition I'm going to make serious work of connecting with my (Angel) spiritual guides and start exploring a relationship with these higher vibrational beings.

Pianoperformer: point taken regarding not referring to source energy with an adjective - e.g. loving.

[Parthon]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

So I think the question is, did these entities choose to be either positive or negative? If so, I wonder why.

This is a tricky question, because you can apply the same to humans. Did criminals choose to be criminals? If not, then how did they become criminals? If they did choose, why? I don't think people choose to be bad people, they just don't consciously and willingly choose anything, and then end up there.

It's the same if vibration is the result of decisions made of a long period of time. It would then have to be a conscious and willing choice to raise vibration, where as unconsious or harmful choices would lower it.

[seirwyn]

Originally Posted by Rouxne van der Walt

I

My spirit chose Christianity as initial vehicle towards consciousness which I've now lovingly and respectfully left behind.

can I ask what was it that made you leave it behind? I am always interested in why people walk away because I see things from both sides. I am a very spiritual christian -I am into astral projection, magic etc and I wonder if sometimes people reject traditional christianity because it is so dull or they have a false view of it based on their experience of church. I am not the type to preach and nag at people so please dont think Im going to do this to you!! But I have discovered that the real thing is so good that i at least want to set the record straight-just in case people end up rejecting something that they would actually have liked if only they had known.

[phantom3165]

I really enjoyed all that has been discussed especially What Erin brought. It has been my experience that the basic problem here is not wether angels and demons exist or where they fit into the universal cosmology,rather,we forget that angels and demons are words that denote a subjective association in the individual(s) discussing the question and is therefore understood and assimilated inside said individuals formatory apparatus (brain) based on his/her limited experience or theoretical knowledge of the subject. This is the first mistake. Words are like anything else in this causal reality they are manifested forms and can be weighed and measured. Words can point to a limited perspective of a truth but are not the objective truth since objective truth cannot be defined with words. Our ability to understand the world around us and each other is based on sounds created by our vocal cords in the form of a,e,i,o,u,and sometimes y. So always remember that and you will be closer to a real understanding. For example let us use "love" since all of us can relate in some form to the definition (angels & demons unless experienced are just theoretical and imagination). I say the word love, which is just air rushing across my vocal cords and being somewhat controlled by my lips, and it travels in sound waves, which vibrate at various frequencies across someones eardrums, which translates into electrical impulses that then enter the labyrinth known as the brain. Once it enters the mind we start rummaging through the mental filing cabinets of concrete and abstract experiences all of which are subjective and are fundamentally flawed since our perspectives are so limited and filtered. Love then gets compared with all the individual(s) experiences of love or lack of it and then said individual(s) "assumes" he/she understands what I mean when I say it. Now you might say so what, we carry on conversations and they flow and we accomplish great and intricate things such as civilizations,mathmatics and philosophy but that is only relatively true. It would be closer to reality to say we stumble and cleverly fill in the blanks most of the time and only occasionally hit the mark so to speak. Think about it for a while and you will realize that it is a miracle we ever get anything accomplished. Just think how much misunderstanding there is between different cultures, religions or bring it closer to home and consider your own personal relationships and how much grief and sorrow there is when someone doesn't listen or consider you in a moment. I went way off topic but I find these kinds of discussions while entertaining kind of useless. I do not wish to belittle the question or the answers only to point out that without a common frame of reference and a form of language that all involved were trained in for a period of time none of your conclusions can be verified as being really understood by said participants. It is all subjective assumptions since angels and demons are really archtypes of universal ideas of course and fine energies. I have used many written words to express myself today and they are under the same scrutiny as spoken words that I have discussed but my aim was to be as precise as possible for any who read this post. I expressed that I liked what Erin had to say for a reason. She answered the question from a neutral place and used as few words as were needed to express her points. I completely agree that religions and therefore all of their ideology's and dogma's while containing fragments of Objective Truth, are for the most part diluted and completely misunderstood and mechanical. They have been polluted by man's lack of consciousness and his inability to truely understand what is being expressed. I am so thankful that people like you exist and have found a way to come together and express your ideas and really try to understand the deep longing we all feel in our hearts to know why we are here and ultimately what is our purpose.
This is my own limited understanding and, if I am to advocate what I have expressed, only subjectively true. Unless you can verify what I have expressed then I suggest that you do not believe it. The Budda said:"The hand pointing at the moon is not the moon." Go out and find your own truths!