StevePavlina.com Podcast #021 - Being Psychic (Blog)

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by yossarian

It is very possible that the actual memory is in the ether and the brain is simply a retrieval mechanism. Most scientists don't bother dealing with this hypothesis however, and instead assume that the brain itself is a storage mechanism. This assumption is casually made and not precisely accurate.

Exactly my point. While scientists continue to limit their interpretations of what they observe through the lens of "non-spiritual possibilities", you can't use their conclusions as the basis of an argument to *prove* that psychic abilities can't exist.

The only real "accurate" way to *prove* to yourself whether psychic abilities exist or not is through personal experimentation. I just don't see any other way someone can prove or disprove the existence of it.

Erin claims psychic abilities exist and that she's a psychic. I claim to have had readings which conclusively prove to ME that psychic abilities exist through personal experimentation. Science vaguely denies the existence of psychic phenomena, although they haven't proven that it doesn't exist - just that they are unable to prove that it does exist.

Wouldn't the logical and more accurate way of testing if psychic phenomena exists be to actually personally experiment and get some readings done in such an instance? That's what I did, and I was shocked to learn that it actually does exist. I don't exactly know how, or why it exists, but I do know that there are people out there that do know things that regular science can't explain ---- short of the psychic being highly trained in surveillance systems and having bugged my house with hidden cameras and such to "trick" me into thinking they can read what I wrote in my journal, just to scam me out of a few bucks. That would be a pretty paranoid way of thinking though.

[tekomino]

Originally Posted by impaul99

Exactly my point. While scientists continue to limit their interpretations of what they observe through the lens of "non-spiritual possibilities", you can't use their conclusions as the basis of an argument to *prove* that psychic abilities can't exist.

Your thinking Paul is the same one people employed long time ago when they thought the earth is flat board. Yet, it isn't.

You can say "can't prove" as much as you want, but there is overwhelming body of careful research and reproducible experiments that substantiate these claims. This is much more than you can say for psychic abilities and such...

There is no point in debating this. You believe what you want to believe. Whether that has connection with what things really are does not matter to you. No matter what kinds of evidence is presented you will find something to substantiate your belief...

Works other way around of course, there is just more evidence in one corner...

[Fullcrum]

Well, tekomino, while you're sleeping, I'll be having fun in another world. Maybe Jupiter.

hahaha .

BTW, that E-book on page 3 is AWESOME! I'm gonna finish it today and have an astral experience. I look forward to getting violently shocked out of my body.

[tekomino]

Originally Posted by Fullcrum

Well, tekomino, while you're sleeping, I'll be having fun in another world. Maybe Jupiter.

hahaha .

BTW, that E-book on page 3 is AWESOME! I'm gonna finish it today and have an astral experience. I look forward to getting violently shocked out of my body.

Knock yourself out man

[Spartan]

What about scientific research that shows people who have undergone heart transplants can sometimes remember things from their donor's life? Surely this shows that memory storage isn't the sole domain of the brain?

[Fullcrum]

Never heard of that - where'd you hear that?

[Spartan]

Originally Posted by Fullcrum

Never heard of that - where'd you hear that?

Some documentary.

[supertom]

yeah the heart has some memory cells or whatever there called, not things but feelings from thier donors

[Dan.Linehan]

Cellular memory - Wikipedia

[supertom]

i have seen show where people are able to draw the exact same picture just by looking at his/her body language. But knowing things that nobody else in the world know or has ever known is special. But when it comes to things like "oh only i know that " since we all connected and oneness that doesnt surpise me, but oneness doesnt mean spirit guides or ether.

[Adelina]

Originally Posted by impaul99

Essentially, the end of the experiment was that after extensive testing and scientific research they could NOT find where memories are stored in the brain, and in effect they concluded that memories are not stored IN the brain but somewhere else.

In this case, the memories are stored in the muscles, as with exercise. Muscle memory.

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by tekomino

Your thinking Paul is the same one people employed long time ago when they thought the earth is flat board. Yet, it isn't.

Nope, it is actually your thinking that's the same as the one that thought the earth is a flat board because you're clinging onto old beliefs. I like how just because I believe in something that science hasn't proven yet, you automatically have to try to attack my intelligence. It's ok, it's not that long ago that people didn't believe in radio waves either.

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by Spartan

What about scientific research that shows people who have undergone heart transplants can sometimes remember things from their donor's life? Surely this shows that memory storage isn't the sole domain of the brain?

Nope, any evidence that suggests that memories aren't stored in the brain has to be thrown out and ignored. Way too many implications for scientists to handle if that wasn't the case.

[tekomino]

Originally Posted by impaul99

Nope, it is actually your thinking that's the same as the one that thought the earth is a flat board because you're clinging onto old beliefs.

Just because you believe in something does not make it true. You need evidence, proof for your hypothesis and claims.

Anyway for all proponents and believers in psychic and other phenomena there is a challenge. Go ahead and prove it! Prove it in a way Copernicus proved that Earth is not center of the universe, Newton gravity and laws of motion...

Your name will go into history books with likes of Einstein, Newton, Colombo and other great minds and explorers. It is a great gift you can give to human kind why you choose not to?

[Kaspian]

My experience is that believing that I am a spiritual being having a physical experience empowers me, improves my physical experience, opens me up to meaningful spiritual experiences, and allows me to love myself and others more fully. Thinking I am purely a physical body does not. Whether it's objectively true or provable is not relevant to me. I'd rather have a functional belief I can't objectively prove over a less-functional "true" belief any day, and WAY over a dysfunctional one.

[Steve Pavlina]

Proof is an artifact of viewing reality through an objective lens, not a facet of reality itself.

"Reality just is. It does not need to be proven. Reality is secure enough in its own existence that it doesn’t care whether some being proves or disproves what it is or provides evidence to support one theory or another. If you think reality cares about proof, you could also say it derives a sick satisfaction from all the false evidence that’s been tendered in its name over the last few millennia."

"Instead of proof what we really want is truth. And a good first truth to accept is that it’s only the squishy, lens-peering beings that require proof, which is actually a subjective experience."

[wolfgang]

Did the great thinkers actually prove something? Or just write a bunch of brilliant equations to describe what is in an abstraction of symbols (math)? There is still great mystery in why. Why would two masses attract each other? No equation addresses facts of physical design, of why it's the way it is. So to me, even the science proofs didn't hit the mark. The equations didn't tell me why my pencil drops to the floor. Well, one could say it's because the mass of the earth is large and attracts other masses to it - but that's no real answer. Why would a mass attract another mass? So what did they prove anyway?

[Fullcrum]

I wish some of you wouldn't hate on science.

It's just not the full story. But don't discredit what science has done for us.

[tekomino]

Steve,

Earth is round sphere for everyone. Someone saying or believing its a flat board does not influence that. It was round before anyone thought of it. It is what it is.

This understanding of reality helps us navigate the world we are living in.

So what Einstein, Newton, Copernicus and others did is provide everyone with better understanding of our world to help us navigate it.

Challenge to you is to do the same. You claim psychic experiences and things then help everyone get same understanding in the same way that we understand that Earth is round and not flat...

It is great gift you can give to humanity to provide us with better understanding of the world we live in.

[Erin Pavlina]

Explorer: Hey everyone, the world is actually round, not flat.

Guy: Poppycock. Everyone can see the world is flat with their own eyes.

Explorer: no, really, I set sail and didn't fall off the edge.

Guy: so you say, but you have no proof.

Explorer: Well how did I get all the way back around here then while sailing in one direction only?

Guy: Easy. You didn't. You only think you did but your'e delusional. In the middle of the night you probably got turned around and actually sailed back here before you got to the edge and fell off. Or you're just lying.

Explorer: Ridiculous. I'm certain the world is round. I've been sailing for years. I'm telling the truth.

Guy: Well prove it.

Explorer: well come sail with me and I will show you.

Guy: Are you crazy? You want me to get on boat with you and sail to the edge of the world? We'll fall right off. No, prove to me it's round first and then I'll be willing to sail with you.

Explorer: Well if I can't show you personally then how will I prove it?

Guy: not my problem. But I'll give you a million dollars if you can prove it to my satisfaction.

Explorer: Well that's all well and good but if you're not going to get on the boat with me then how can I prove it? I've got a hundred guys who were with me who all saw the same thing I did.

Guy: All delusional. You've tricked them into believing the world is round. You should be ashamed of yourself, preying upon the weak minded with your mumbo jumbo reality.

Explorer: You know what? Think the world is flat if you want. I don't really care. I know it's round so I'm going to keep on spreading the truth no matter what you call me.

Guy: Uh huh, that's what I thought. No proof to back up your outlandish claims.

Explorer: Well maybe someday someone will leave the planet and be able to send back pictures of the world showing it's round.

Guy: Rubbish. Leave the Earth? I don't know of a single scientist who believes a human being is capable of flying. Now you're just crazy.

I could go on but I hope you get the gist and see how frustrating it is for those of us who have "sailed around the globe" and don't doubt anymore. Do you think we want to spend our time proving it to people who don't believe it's possible? Or shall we fill our ships with the intrepid and show them?

[tekomino]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

I could go on but I hope you get the gist and see how frustrating it is for those of us who have "sailed around the globe" and don't doubt anymore. Do you think we want to spend our time proving it to people who don't believe it's possible? Or shall we fill our ships with the intrepid and show them?

Good point and yet nobody believes earth is flat anymore. Why is that? Is it because the ones that understood it gave up? Is it because fundamental truths can't be denied for long once made public?

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by tekomino

Good point and yet nobody believes earth is flat anymore. Why is that? Is it because the ones that understood it gave up? Is it because fundamental truths can't be denied for long once made public?

Did Erin give up or something? Who are you referring to?

As far as I can tell Erin spends all her freetime sharing what she has seen with the world, and for free at that.

She can't force you to hop on the boat.

[Spartan]

Scientific theories are just models of reality. They aren't truths, they are merely models which make accurate predictions. These models prove useful and they increase our understanding of the world, but they aren't necessarily true. Thus phenomena deemed impossible by accepted mainstream theories might be possible in reality. Perhaps the model says it's impossible, but the model is only a useful representation of reality, not reality itself.

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

I could go on but I hope you get the gist and see how frustrating it is for those of us who have "sailed around the globe" and don't doubt anymore. Do you think we want to spend our time proving it to people who don't believe it's possible? Or shall we fill our ships with the intrepid and show them?

LOL. Well done Erin. Couldn't have done it better myself.

It's can be so frustrating trying to prove anything to anyone who doesn't want it proven. What cracks me up is that when I used to be unsure about Psychic abilities I too had my doubts. But instead of going around and calling all psychic people charlatan idiots who think the world is flat, I decided to test it out. I got a few readings done, (including one from Erin) and it only took three readings to get total and undeniable validation for me that psychic abilities can exist.

What's funny is that this doesn't just happen with Psychic and Spiritual stuff either. Sometimes when I tell people that there is a guy named Steve Pavlina that makes $40,000 PER MONTH by running a Blog, I've had people tell me "Hogwash... nobody makes that much money Blogging...he's lying..." Then if I tell them "Yeah, but why wouldn't he make that much? I just recently got my Blog going and I made over $700 last month, do you think I'm lying?" they're like "Yeah, but that's $700... that's a far cry from $40k/month..."

Then, if you ever do prove to them by showing them pictures or explaining how Blogging works and all that, they typically say "Oh, he's lucky..."

or

"Oh, well of course he makes that kind of money, he was the first one to do it ever, the first ones always make all the money..."

or any number of 12893723847 excuses they have in their brains.

Lack of belief isn't just related to psychic phenomena, I hear it all the time from people when talking to them about money related stuff. I make it my area of study to see how people are making money on the Internet, and 90% of the time people don't believe me when I say that this person makes $40k/month and this person made $800,000 in affiliate commissions in 4 months, and that person makes X / month working 1hour a day from home, etc.

Basically, people get to the point where they have their own set of beliefs, and anything that anyone else has to say that doesn't match that set of beliefs must be hogwash. What a limited way to live your life.

I personally love it when people challenge my beliefs. Even if it drives me nuts at first. Polarization is a great example. I wanted to throw rocks at Steve when he first starting bring that crap up... It screwed everything up! Took me over a year to finally integrate it into my thinking.

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by Spartan

Scientific theories are just models of reality. They aren't truths, they are merely models which make accurate predictions. These models prove useful and they increase our understanding of the world, but they aren't necessarily true. Thus phenomena deemed impossible by accepted mainstream theories might be possible in reality. Perhaps the model says it's impossible, but the model is only a useful representation of reality, not reality itself.

Exactly. Also, how often has the model been changed, updated, and completely thrown out and replaced by a new model?

When the model reflects my own perceivable reality, it makes sense to me and I follow it, such as in the case of gravity. Science says gravity exists, and I can drop a pencil and it falls...therefore the model is verified by my own life experience.

When the model says "We can't prove if psychic phenomena exists" but my own senses tell me it does beyond any shadow of doubt, why would I listen to the model?

Tekomino, I have a question for your. If your own senses *proved* to you that psychic phenomena exist, would you accept it even though scientists say it doesn't, or would you check yourself into a mental hospital because you'd think you must be crazy?

[Fullcrum]

I don't know where I'm going with this point or what it'll do to this discussion, but it just came to mind and I feel compelled to state it.

Much evidence coming from all of you suggests that "if all the science and technology says it does not exist, or is at least inconclusive, but all your senses and first hand experience prove you right, it's obviously right and you should go with your senses."

I don't know about you, but my sense organs aren't the most reliable in the world. There are optical illusions and mirages, for example. If a dude is walking in the desert, sees a mirage, and believes water is there, well, obviously it isn't and he's wrong. Any "instrument" would pick up no water in the area. So the instrument is right, and perception is wrong. First hand experience is wrong.

I can't reasonably answer this question at the moment: What makes psychic abilities different?

Should we instead class reality into three categories?

1) Things that are there whether you believe in them or not. Gravity and earth being round, for example.

2) Things that happen/appear when you believe in them, or are open to the experience. Psychic experiences, IM, etc.

3) Things that don't appear even if you believe in them. A mirage, dragons, and jabberwockies come to mind.

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by Fullcrum

2) Things that happen/appear when you believe in them, or are open to the experience. Psychic experiences, IM, etc.

I didn't believe in Psychics prior to having it proven to me. I was neutral. If I were to list it on a scale of 0 to 10, with 0 being NO WAY, PSYCHICS ARE QUACKS! and 10 being TOTALLY BELIEVE IN IT, and 5 being neutral, I was probably closer to 4.5ish.

A few years back, I was probably around 2 or 3 though.

I distinctly remember a friend of mine going to see a psychic/palm-reader. He came back and I asked him "What did she tell you?" and he said something like "She said I've been waiting for something big to happen to me, and it will happen very soon..."

I said to him "What a pile of crap! That could mean anything..." I mean, it's so general it could be totally spun in 10,000 directions and no matter which way you look at it, it can't be made false.

I don't know if this lady was a fraud, a really bad psychic, or if the reading was just really bad, but I wasn't impressed with the reading he got at all. To me it didn't prove anything.

However, having experimented with getting my own readings done, it's been proven to me.

Unless someone here can "scientifically" explain to me how a psychic was able to answer 3 very specific questions I wrote in my journal the night before the reading?

[Steve Pavlina]

Originally Posted by tekomino

Good point and yet nobody believes earth is flat anymore.

Now they believe the whole universe is flat. Supposedly when you die, you fall off the edge. Waahhhh!

[Spartan]

Originally Posted by Fullcrum

I don't know about you, but my sense organs aren't the most reliable in the world. There are optical illusions and mirages, for example. If a dude is walking in the desert, sees a mirage, and believes water is there, well, obviously it isn't and he's wrong. Any "instrument" would pick up no water in the area. So the instrument is right, and perception is wrong. First hand experience is wrong.

True, but mirages can be explained scientifically I think: "an optical illusion in which atmospheric refraction by a layer of hot air distorts or inverts reflections of distant objects" (wordnet.princeton.edu).

Thus mirages are explainable and induced by distortion of light due to atmospheric refraction. However, how does that make psychic phenomena any less credible? If you think it does, why stop at psychic phenomena? Why not doubt sense perception in general?

Considering sense perception is our only way of gathering information, you are basically denying the existence of any knowledge, including science.

[Spartan]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Now they believe the whole universe is flat. Supposedly when you die, you fall off the edge. Waahhhh!

I think there is perhaps more to reality than mainstream science holds. However, the current models help to better our understanding of the world and have proven useful in developing countless technologies.

I don't know if psychic phenomena exist, but I know science is unqualified to say they don't. Science is confined to what's useful, not what is.